• Announcements

    • Evan Burton


      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team

Gary Murr

  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About Gary Murr

  • Rank
    Advanced Member

Contact Methods

  • ICQ

Profile Information

  • Gender
  • Location
    Fergus, Ontario, Canada

Recent Profile Visitors

11,126 profile views
  1. Ron: No I am not "talking about official FBI records about this ammunition." What I am talking about is the true historical record of the construction and distribution of this ammunition after it was manufactured in 1954 by the Western Cartridge Company. There was no "official" FBI record of this ammunition prior to the evening of November 22, 1963, for the simple reason that they had never heard of the ammunition up to that point in time - no "sly" involved. Part of this may have been because up to this same point in time this ammunition had not been involved in the commission of a crime, at least not a crime known to the FBI. And as far as my ten year research on this ammunition was able to discover, outside of the use of this military ammunition during times of war, I know of no crime committed within the continental U. S. that involved this same ammunition. What I am basing my conclusion of the FBI personnel's search for any of this ammunition is the rough work notes prepared by Jay Cochran, Robert Frazier and others in the employ of the FBI lab once they were confronted with the actual bullet and shell casings themselves. Because of their efforts one eventually is able to conclude that they did discover more about the actual pre November 11, 1963 history of this ammunition than they ever revealed to members of the Warren Commission staff. Whether this same history it is directly pertinent to the assassination event itself is debatable. But what it does show is that this ammunition was never manufactured as a result of a request on behalf of the CIA and thereafter hidden behind an order placed by the U. S. Marines, as "reported" via memorandum by Cochran and the FBI. What you do discover, once you know the true history, is that the ammunition was scheduled for manufacture and distribution to its true client by the end of 1952. The how and why of the delay of this same contractual agreement, resulting in the two year delay in its completion, is a story for another time. The point that should not be lost here is that the ammunition was and is basically "rare," making its eventual theoretical "choice" as the ballistic implement of "discovery" of death all the more intriguing.
  2. Unfortunately the answer is not that "easy." As my lengthy research into this subject matter revealed, until the events of November 22, 1963 occurred, no one in the employ of the FBI, and in particular any employee of the FBI lab, had ever heard or seen this ammunition - no one. The vaunted FBI lab had none of this ammunition in their vast collection of ammunition maintained for comparative purposes - not one round. It was not until the precise identification of the WCC ammunition was obtained that the lab sent individual employees scurrying in an attempt to find any of this ammunition, initially acquiring a small quantity of same from private individuals/citizens in the greater New York/Baltimore area who were contacted via telephone by members of the FBI lab while they waited on the arrival of evidence from Dallas. The FBI did not receive full boxes of 20 rounds of this ammunition until at least 36 to 48 hours after the assassination event itself. And while it is true that this ammunition was obtainable at scattered locations throughout the state of Texas, and in particular in the Fort Worth - Dallas area, there is nothing to confirm any FBI employee's purchase of this same ammunition from any of these locations, particularly an agent who was, at minimum, 6' 4" tall. The entire concept advanced by Robert Frazier during his testimony session of March 31, 1964 that this ammunition was readily obtainable and in substantial quantities is a misnomer and the FBI never possessed large quantities of this ammunition at anytime during their investigation into the assassination.
  3. And as many researchers here are probably already aware, J. Doyle Williams was also the FBI "stand-in" for John Connally during the May 23 - 24, 1964 Warren Commission reconstruction in Dallas. Williams was actually taller than Connally by some3+", which also had the potential to present further problems during this same reconstruction. And with all do respect to my good friend and fellow researcher, Vince Palamara, I find it highly unlikely that Williams would have "planted" what was to become CE 399. The first question that would have to be asked, if this were true, is from where did Williams get the spent 6.5mm WCC bullet that is a theoretical match to CE C2766? Gary
  4. If I might, allow me to attempt to get this thread back on track before it wobbles too far away from the content as originally constructed by its creator, Alberto Miatello. As someone who has more than a passing interest in matters of “evidence” that pertain to the wounding of John Connally I admit that when I first saw the title of this particular thread I was intrigued. But the more I read the initial narrative constructed by Alberto, as well as the responses to his posting, the more I had, in the words of Pink Floyd, “the urge to defecate.” To a large extent the eventual use of the word “morons” is applicable, but just not to the staff of Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963. There are of course morons, and then there are genuine morons, individuals devoid of any true sense of research beyond the fringe efforts of reading and believing “evidence” relating to the wounding of John Connally that is demonstrably false. Therefore, let us take a look at just what Mr. Miatello, an apparent true believer in the research efforts of Robert Harris, advances in his statements that are at the core of the hypothetical nuances he attempts to advance throughout this, his thread. To wit: “It was Connally himself who totally debunked this hypothesis, when he wrote in his book “In History Shadow” (1994)– black on white – …” Putting aside the fact that the actual title of the book is “In History’s Shadow,” – David Von Pein is correct [sorry to ruin your day, David, but I have to agree with you on this one] John Connally actually wrote very little of this his “American Odyssey.” This task fell to ghost-writer, Mickey Herskowitz. Herskowitz is also responsible for the equally dreadful 2003 volume “written” by Nellie Connally, “From Love Field.” It is to be noted that by the time Herskowitz got around to helping Nellie with her painfully inaccurate rendering of the events of November 22, 1963, that a decision apparently had been made not to repeat the ludicrously fanciful account of the “most curious discovery…” of the “metal object” quietly [?] falling to a floor in Parkland Hospital. This of course must represent the “TRUE bullet” that apparently wounded John Connally, the central brick in the yellow-brick road fairy-tale that this hypothesis represents. And it is also to be noted that in her handwritten notes constructed by Nellie Connally after the assassination event, notes in turn that are the basis for “From Love Field”, Mrs. Connally never mentions the discovery of this “TRUE bullet,” even though according to Mr. Miatello the Governor actually witnessed this same bullet “falling from his thigh…” Speaking of which… “…Connally saw the TRUE bullet falling from his thigh at around 12:38-12:40 of Nov. 22, 1963, moments before the surgical intervention by Dr. Gregory on 2nd floor of Parkland Hospital. And he recalls that a nurse IMMEDIATELY collected it, and then she put the bullet in a brown envelope…” Unfortunately Dr. Charles Gregory’s “surgical intervention”, and I assume here that what Mr. Miatello is referring to is Dr. Gregory’s actual surgical repair to the Governor’s right distal radius, did not begin “moments before…” a time frame “around 12:38 – 12:40…”. Rather this operative procedure did not begin until 4:00 p.m. CST [1600 hours as dictated by Dr. Gregory] and ended some 50 minutes later at 4:50 p.m., CST. Perhaps Alberto can point me to a citation/document/testimony wherein John Connally states that he actually “saw” this bullet falling from his thigh, as he lay prone on his back in trauma room # 2, and while he is at it can also indicate to me documentation supporting the contention that John Connally recalled a nurse “immediately” gathering up this same “TRUE bullet” and witnessed it being “put in a brown envelope.” You do know, Alberto that these same evidence envelopes were not kept in trauma room # 2 – just trying to help you out here. As for the further contention that “the bullet falling from Connally’s thigh was seen at around 12:38 – 12:40 p.m. at 2nd floor of Parkland…” is, of course, an impossibility. John Connally was not taken up to OR # 5 on the second floor until at least 12:50 p.m. and most probably even later than that. Dr. Alfred Giesecke did not begin his anesthetic implementation until 1:00 p.m. And he nor none of those who were actually present in OR #5 throughout the entirety of the three operative procedures John Connally endured ever mentioned, via any medium, the discovery/arrival of the “TRUE bullet” in this same operating theatre, let alone witnessed it being placed “immediately…in an envelope” of any description, in particular as John Connally was being removed from his stretcher onto the operating table in OR # 5. You do also know, Alberto, that when John Connally was removed from his stretcher in OR # 5, second floor, PMH, that he was naked, not wearing any clothing. It had been removed in trauma room # 2 – just trying to help you out here – again. There was one and only one evidence envelope prepared as a result of metallic residue removed from the right distal radius of John Connally. This same envelope was prepared by Nurse Audrey Bell in her office, not in OR # 5, and she turned this envelope over to Robert N. “Bobby” Nolan, a member of the Texas Highway Patrol. In this current thread regarding the “TRUE bullet” recovered by a phantom nurse Alberto contends, as he did in a prior thread he constructed that dealt with CE 399, Audrey Bell handed officer Nolan a “bullet” in a small brown envelope and identified this same object [apparently unknown to Nolan because the envelope was sealed] as a bullet and did so in the presence of Connally aide, William Stinson. This fanciful tale is based upon an interview Robert Harris had with Nolan in 2010. According to this same fanciful narrative, and I paraphrase, false documentation was thereafter generated to change this encounter to reflect that Nurse Bell gave Nolan fragments from the Governor’s wrist and the bullet and its envelope was made to disappear. The crowning jewel in this Harris – Miatello tale is that even in this deception the bungling “morons” involved in this scheme screwed up. Why? Because Nurse Bell claimed she turned the brown envelope represented as CE 842 over to a “civilian”, possibly “an FBI or maybe a Secret Service agent.” Nurse Bell, in turn, could not be “mistaken” on this point because, in the words of Robert Harris, “Patrolman Bob Nolan was wearing an uniform…” and Bell remembers the individual who received this envelope as a “civilian wearing no uniform.” As I indicated previously, there are morons and then there are morons. And there are also morons who never do research. In March of 2002 I contacted the Executive Director of the Texas DPS [Department of Public Safety] Historical Museum and Research Center, Austin, Texas. I asked this individual one specific question: Did all members of the Texas Highway Patrol always wear a uniform, in particular the typical uniform one would associate with a member of the Texas Highway Patrol, i.e. the customary State Trooper’s obligatory style hat and some form of visible badge? The answer was yes, but with a notable exception. Certain officers of the DPS/Texas Highway Patrol identified as Texas State “Troopers” were in 1963 dressed as “plain clothed officers,” a practice that continues to this very day. This same information was confirmed for me in February of 2003 by researcher Steve Thomas, whose contact with a retired Dallas police detective confirmed that he was familiar with plain clothed officers of the Texas Department of Public Safety. Robert Harris and his disciples like to use Audrey Bell’s interview with the ARRB as proof of deception and disappearance of evidence. Harris claims that Audrey Bell “was always stubborn in denying any kind of delivery by her to Bob Nolan…and of course she cannot be mistaken on this point” the why of which I explored in the paragraph above - she gave her envelope to a citizen not a patrolman theoretically “wearing an uniform.” This, however, was Douglas Horne’s conclusion drawn from the March 20, 1997 ARRB interview of Bell: “She independently recalled filling out a receipt on 11/22/63 for the fragments on half-page sized paper with red lettering in the letterhead, which was signed for by one of two men in civilian clothes (whom she thought were Federal agents) who accepted the fragments. She said she personally delivered the original of this receipt to Parkland Hospital Administrator, Jack Price. (ARRB staff promised to try to locate this document, and promised that if located, we would mail her a photocopy for verification purposes.)” As I have written regarding this Horne conclusion in my Connally manuscript: “The use of the noun “thought” in conjunction with Ms. Bell and the “two men in civilian clothes…” may just possibly represent an indication that Audrey Bell was willing to concede, some 34 years after the event took place, that her assumption that any individual who approached her dressed in “civilian” clothing had to have necessarily been a “Federal agent” is and was potentially wrong. The key, of course, should be found on the “receipt…signed for by one of the two men in civilian clothes...”. If you have the receipt, or a copy of the receipt, then the signature of the “one” individual who signed for the fragments will be present on this same receipt – if Audrey Bell’s recollections are correct.” Robert Harris and his followers, including apparently Alberto Miatello, believe this receipt “disappeared”, further proof if you will of intentional destruction of evidence. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. The Bell - Nolan receipt does exist – I have had a copy of it since 1999. And it was signed by only one “civilian” and precisely where Audrey Bell left room on this particular PMH letterhead for this same civilian to verify that he had “received” that which she had given him – Bob Nolan. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzA5R7J9M0SFVl9JcGNNR3BxTDQ/view?usp=sharing FWIW
  5. This is indeed sad news ... RIP, Sherry.
  6. I echo the sentiments of my fellow forum members regarding this sad news. Bernice Moore was one of those fellow Canadians who, unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to meet in person. I always enjoyed her postings and contributions - she will be missed.
  7. Steve: "Who is Arthur Nagle?" According to Dan Wise, Arthur Nagel [note spelling] was a native Texan, born in San Antonio in 1920. Again, and according to this same source, after service in the U. S. Army during WW II, "Nagel was employed at the G2 Intelligence at Fort Sam Houston. He retired in 1972, after a 30 year career in U. S. Intelligence." I have checked via the World War II Army Enlistment Records which indicates that Nagel enlisted on January 25, 1943 at Fort Sam Houston, Army Serial # 38366443. He was assigned as a Warren Officer, Army Branch Immaterial. The Arthur Nagel Community Clinic exists in Bandera, Texas, and the Dan Wise "legacy" page with information on Nagel.can be found at the link provided below. FWIW Link: http://www.nagelclinic.org/arthur-nagels-legacy.html Gary
  8. John: If you have access to Richard Trask's "Pictures of the Pain," he has a short chapter - chapter 3 - in his book on Bothun that may be of some use to you in filling out a few more details on Bothun and his presence in Dealey Plaza and the aftermath history of his film. Bothun is also mentioned in passing in other pages of this same book. FWIW Gary Murr
  9. Hi Jim: I just sent you a PM on this and await your reply. Gary
  10. "Of course, no one can ever root out the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That is a game lawyers play. There is something touching about their naïve assumption that one gets the full story by putting a man under oath. In practice you get very little of it. Anxious not to perjure himself, the witness volunteers as little as possible. The President's Commission on the assassination was dominated by attorneys. The record shows it. Their depositions of minor witnesses were remarkable brief." William Manchester - 1967.
  11. Robin/James: I believe the article that Mr. Sawtelle is referring to is found at this link: http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Headstamp/ And though I don't quite know where Mr. Sawtelle is going with this topic, I disagree with his statement that the dating in the upper left hand corner of the bunter diagram - Figure 7 in this Eaglesham article, the "Superseded..." stamping - "reads 10/5/70". The dating year is most certainly "73" as it appears therein, not "70" as Mr. Sawtelle believes; just compare this last digit to the more visible "0" in the month dating of "10". Gary
  12. Thank you for this pertinent and well researched article, Tracy, and it is nice to see that you were in contact [?] with Paul Hoch, as you indicate a very good researcher and someone whom I have known for a long time. Much appreciated, Gary Murr
  13. Gentlemen: FWIW June Dishong's original handwritten letter regarding her Dealey Plaza experience, dated "Fri-11-22-63", is part of the Sixth Floor Museum's collection. Hopefully I have provided links for access below. Gary Links: http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/0?t:state:flow=f1756512-af1f-465a-8e81-687300d51f54 http://emuseum.jfk.org/video/2004.041.0001.pdf
  14. As always, Ernie, many thanks for this information and your ongoing and thorough efforts to set the record "straight", as it were, regarding the JBS. Gary Murr
  15. Let me add my congratulations, Bart - well done. And I echo Jim's sentiments - it is unfortunate that you could not join us in Dallas this year for the Lancer Conference.