Robert Mady

Thomas, and yet you still avoid answering the question. Do you have an explanation for the high contrast or is the only explanation you have is that the shirt has to be significantly lighter color than the hair and that this makes it impossible to have been the red and black plaid long sleeved shirt, but you don't want to admit it to us or maybe yourself? WAIT, you are saying you believe the sunlight reflected off a wall caused the contrast? Thomas, please provide proof of this! In Altgens #6 the hair on DOORMAN has similar contrast as the shirt, they are both in the same light. I would like to conduct a poll Who believes the reflected light off the wall caused the red and black long sleeved plaid shirt to appear significantly lighter than the hair? Who believes the reflection from the wall was responsible for the alteration singularly in the color of the shirt?

Are you the same Thomas Graves that was posting on Deconstructing The Lies and when we recently posted you believed LOVELADY and SHELLEY are depicted in the Couch film walking down the Elm Street extension. You seemed to agree with me that the two figures seen match the descriptions of LOVELADY and SHELLEY but you believed LOVELADY was wearing the red and black plaid shirt. I showed you that other people depicted in the Couch film also had plaid patterns that changed by frame, arguably caused by artifacts from over enlargement. What you never explained was the fact that the man we agree on as LOVELADY had a shirt on that was significantly lighter in color than the hair was on his head. Not to mention LOVELADY as seen on Elm Street extension also has on a short sleeved shirt. Please comment is this you?

Larry, I thought I understood what you said, the problem with an analysis like this is there is a complete absence of reports from the police there is a complete absence of interrogation reports from witnesses and suspects, there is nothing to compare. As far as Sheriff's Affidavits, Police Reports written in 1964, SSA Reports, FBI Reports, A few statements from government officials, WC testimony and newspaper reports and media interviews, I have already cataloged every report concerning the assassination, data can be sorted by name, source, location, sex, civilian or otherwise, employee of the TSBD or other, number of shots heard, sound of shots heard, origin of shots, location of limo at time of shots, as well as dozens of other aspects. There is no information generated in 1963 from the DPD that I have been able to locate on any policemen or witness or suspect. PO BAKER is the lone exception. If this information still exits, I would love to see it. Someone please point me to it. Note, I am only concerned with the assassination, there maybe information readily available on TIPPIT.

dELETED

Bump Robert, are you unwilling to continue this converstaion?

Larry, it is not only the police reports that are missing it's also reports on witnesses and suspects. We are frustrated that the DPD did not keep detailed notes on the interrogation of OSWALD, but the fact is there is no paper trail of the investigation, unless this paper work can be located and there is a logical reason for it to have gone missing, this isn't a scandal the missing paper work is part of the cover-up, it is obstruction of justice, this is a crime. Larry, the only PO I have found that made a written statement that day was BAKER, only CHANEY gave a TV interview, all of the other police within Dealey Plaza are conspicuous by their absence of records. A number of Police reports can be found dated July 1964. There can be no comparison made, there are none to compare.

Bill, thank you for taking the time to post the links, all interesting, but as you know, not what we are looking for.

Larry, they may exist, I do not know where they may be. Yes I have contacted Sixth Floor Museum, I was pointed to Texas history or City of Dallas achieves. The names on the list is pretty much every officer in DP with the exception of BAKER. You may think they exist, you may be surprised to find out they don't. The Dallas Police department should have had a mountain of paper generated as a result of the assassination, it does not exist. Larry, are you confusing the Affidavits filed by the sheriff's department. There are at least 55 Affidavits, this not NOT what I am looking for and the only Affidavit by the Police was filed by BAKER.

Larry, they are not at Texas history, I have searched there many times. NARA, I searched a number of members of Dallas police at random as well as some witnesses, sorry not there either.

Larry, can you point me to police reports from: HARGIS MARTIN JACKSON CHANEY BARNETT SMITH E. SMITH J. MCLAIN HAYGOOD HARKNESS WHITE CURRY MURPHY FOSTER DENHAM BROWN Written immediately after the assassination. Reports written in July are useless as is most of their testimony. These people were all witness to a crime, in the case of HARGIS, CHANEY, JACKSON and MARTIN, they were within feet of the scenes or the crime, where are their reports detailing what they witnessed and the actions they took? Where are the reports from BARNETT, E. SMITH and L. SMITH stationed under the SN window, who all reacted by running to the rail yards, where are their reports? Maybe I have been looking in the wrong locations Where are the police reports on suspects and witnesses interrogated on 11/22/1963 that we can document going to the police station? They were brought there, interrogated and no one took a note or wrote a report?

Talking about the DPD not having the list of patrons, the DPD has virtually no documents. Where are the police reports from all of the officers in the motorcade and on the street corners in DP written that day or the next? Where is the police report from CURRY? The police interviewed witnesses and suspects, where are the police reports of these interviews. We know some witnesses were carted off to the police station on 11/22/1963 yet there is no records of interviews. The DPD is a shame, whatever reports existed I am sure were not favorable to the WCR and are now gone from existence. For the most part the only reports available from some of the DPD officers were provided later in 1964, seems July was the month the DPD decided to revise or create reports.

Thomas, I have no idea what questions you believe remain unanswered, could your please reference it or repeat it?

Thomas, could you address the question I posed to you in post #251? You believe LOVELADY is wearing the red and black plaid shirt in Couch film, how can this shirt appear significantly lighter in color than LOVELADYS hair as seen in the Couch film? In post #247, it is illustrated that others in Couch film show the same type of patterning as seen on SHELLEY and LOVELADY you believed represented plaid clothing, can you see that it could be an artifact of enlarging and therefore not necessarily the result of LOVELADY wearing plaid? Also, questions posed in #209 and #229: if LOVELADY is on the steps in Hughes and Martin film, no matter when the films were taken, what would be a reasonable explanation as to how and why LOVELADY was allowed to leave the TSBD and or would have been allowed to reenter with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the entrance?

Thomas, it is ok to disagree, I would just like to know what you disagree with, are you saying it is LOVELADY and he is wearing his red and black plaid shirt but that it appears much lighter than his hair in Couch film and there is a reasonable explanation you could post so that we all could understand your reasoning? I don't believe DOORMAN was altered from OSWALD to LOVELADY, I believe LOVELADY was altered in the FBI photos to resemble DOORMAN. I do believe DOORMAN is OSWALD, but it really does not matter because all of the shots came from the monument area, where OSWALD was located is merely a curiosity and has nothing to do with the assassination of the President.

Thomas, thank you for the correction. Illustrated in posts 196 195 and 201, stripes in the shirt are in reality low in contrast, that the red stripe is more likely pink and that in bright sunlight the stripes get washed out, combined with the small size of images the stripes become undiscernible. Yes I understand you are ok with claiming them to be SHELLEY and LOVEADY, please keep in mind I am trying to also bring Robert into the conversation and need him to commit to whether or not the descriptions match. Thomas, IF it is LOVELADY in the Couch film, he is wearing a light colored short sleeved shirt. It is not red, black and white, it is a significantly lighter color than the hair on LOVELADYS head, it cannot possibly be the plaid shirt Groden claimed LOVELADY wore. Did you look at the gif I posted of the woman in the sweater, she is typical of the patterning that occurs in the image, this is the same patterning seen on SHELLEY and LOVELADY.

Thomas, it does not matter that the vertical stripes can NOT be discerned, I have already illustrated that the stripes were not of high contrast, it may not be possible to discern light stripes in the Couch film or Altgens #6 as already discussed, it is more important to establish that the descriptions of SHELLEY and LOVELADY can be considered a match for the men in the Couch film. Once it is firmly established that these two men could be SHELLEY and LOVELADY then we can establish other evidence providing proofs that the two men in the Couch film are where they claimed to be at that moment and must be SHELLEY and LOVELADY. But we have to take it one step at a time, we must be patient.

Robert, can we return to the question, do the two men in the Couch photograph resemble SHELLEY and LOVELADY? Does the shape of the heads match? SHELLEY - long, LOVELADY rounded back of the head Do the hairlines match? SHELLEY - bushy and upright, LOVELADY receding and same shape Do the shoulders match? SHELLEY - straight, LOVELADY slumped down SHELLEY I believe is taller than LOVELADY Do we agree that the descriptions of SHELLEY and LOVELADY are a match for two men in Couch film.

Thomas, nice gif, have you examined this gif frame by frame? Have you noticed the patterns change? Have you noticed that darker areas seem to have more pattern, look at the woman in the dark sweater to the left of the screen, can you discern patterns, same as on SHELLY and LOVELADY, and the pattern changes with each frame, SHELLEY has similar patterns as LOVELADY on his clothing, what I believe you are seeing is an artifact of enlarging not a pattern on the clothing.

Robert P. Here are images of LOVELADY, SHELLEY and Couch frame showing two men walking down extension, would you say that it might be a fair assessment to determine that the two men in the Couch frame according to stature and hair line and shape could in deed be LOVELADY and SHELLEY?

Thomas, please review the Hughes film I posted, do an analysis of the potential time line for yourself instead of blindly believing in Groden 8-15 minutes claim. Then answer the question, how did LOVELADY get out on the steps if he was inside the TSBD with BARNETT and SMITH guarding the door and how did he get back inside past BARNETT and SMITH? Either you enter a dialog and discuss these issues in a civilized manner or you can continue to post criticisms of me to your self.

Robert, I see your point on ADAMS on the stairs and TRULY. I understand the conflict your attempting to resolve. Good luck. The WC testimonies are fraught with inconsistencies, they can't be resolved. Just the fact that BAKER asked TRULY where the stairs were and TRULY brought him directly to the elevator is odd, then in the haste to get to the roof, they both stand there and ring the elevator and wait to see if it comes down. A police officer I doubt would have taken the elevator over running the stairs, if there were a culprit at large, being stuck in a freight elevator would be the last location to place yourself, from the stairs you guard the stairs and have access to elevator shaft on each floor. The whole scenario stinks. If the WC had been a trial, the important inconsistencies would have been resolved, in reality the WC fostered inconsistencies, it makes the mystery impossible to untangle. Dismiss SHELLEY and LOVELADY walking to the rail yards -> not a chance. There is significantly more evidence as proof that this was the actions that were taken than what you are proposing. No we can't definitively prove it was SHELLEY and LOVELADY in the Couch film walking down the extension, we can't disprove it either and a massive amount of circumstantial evidence indicates that it is in deed SHELLEY and LOVELADY.

Robert, I feel your pain. Nothing is proven, nothing will ever be proven. But what ever scenario we decide on must make the most logical sense. STYLES is watching the motorcade, shots are fired, does she immediately run to the stairway or observe out the window to see what is happening then decide it is important to also get to the rail yards, she may have recalled it was immediate but she may have lingered longer than she thought, watching the limo disappear, to observe a hoard of people running toward the monument area, long enough to make it down the stairs while BAKER was in the lunch room attempting to murder OSWALD, by the time she made it downstairs, SHELLEY and LOVELADY who had left the steps immediately following the assassination walked down the extension and reentered the building in time to see ADAMS before she exited the building. Either all these events happened or they didn't if they all did they fit together in a coherent manner. Not all evidence is real or real useful. Remember much of this testimony was taken months after the assassination, memories change and memories can be influenced for nefarious purposes.

Robert, honestly I understand what you are saying, I understand it is LOVELADY and SHELLEY proclaiming to wait on the steps for CALVERY to come back to the TSBD, I understand. I just don't believe this is true, when all the other evidence points to LOVELADY and SHELLEY leaving the steps immediately to go to the rail yards. As I suggested to you this could be an invention by the WC to change the timing of LOVELADY and SHELLEY encounter with ADAMS and STYLES, the location of LOVELADY or SHELLEY was not important to the WC, what was important was to discredit ADAMS, they needed ADAMS off the stairs when OSWALD ran down from the sixth floor, this could have been a mechanism to introduce conflict and doubt. I do not believe SHELLEY and LOVELADY waited for a conversation with CALVERY to leave the steps or start walking towards the rail yard. You proclaimed SHELLEY and LOVELADY lied in testimony, most simply, they lied about CALVERY! I don't understand if they went back into the building after the conversation with CALVERY, why would they make up a complex story about going towards the rail yards?

Assuming this is the complete Hughes film, in its original format. Please watch this film from beginning to end and tell me again that you still believe LOVELADY could have possibly been filmed 8-15 minutes following the assassination as Pundit Groden is said to have proclaimed according to Thomas.