Mike Tribe

Arrive Bratislava 12:35 Friday on OK962 from Prague; leave Sunday at 18:30 on OK697...

So, because of a bungled Metropolitan Police operation in which an innocent man was killed, which was subsequently the subject of exhaustive and very public investigation and condemnation, it's OK -- and "rational" -- to accuse every expert in the employ of the Met on the basis of no evidence whatsoever of dishonesty. Indeed, according to Mr Lemkin, this condemnation should be extended to all British government employees anywhere in the world. And it's up to ME to produce evidence they're innocent... An interesting new take on "innocent until proven guilty". Try reading through Mr Lemkin's post above. I think "rant" is a fairly accurate description...

I wondered how long it would be before you were around to insult me. I don't think I need to prove anything. After all, it's you who's accusing British public servants of dishonesty, not me. Do you have any evidence at all to support such libel? I thought not. As for the arrogance and ignorance slur, all I can say is that I expect little better from you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...huttoreport.pdf Do YOU have any evidence (other than the clearly interested and unsupported claims by the PPP) which would impugn the honesty of the experts sent out from Scotland Yard, or is this just another "they're from the government so they must be bent" rant?

This really is a sad commentary on the decline in the quality of the contributions to this forum. People have claimed on the basis of no credible evidence whatsoever that Bhutto was murdered in a plot organized by the CIA/MI5/Mossad/Fairies-at-the-bottom-of-the-garden and when hard evidence is produced from independent experts, this is dismissed as "part of the plot"...

My Dear Mr. Tribe, Your mischaracterizations of my work and goals, whether attributable to ignorance, malice, or a combination thereof, are as grotesque as they are seemingly interminable. You provide an all-new, 21st century definition of "lost Tribe." And that's where the cuteness ends. Until so-called educators en masse come to understand and teach the established truths of the Battle of Dealey Plaza and the Clay Shaw trial, and the importance of cynicism, anti-authoritarianism, and independent thinking to the definition of "citizenship," you and your ilk will continue to turn out the precious little humanettes who must at all costs be protected from verbal profanity even as, defenseless, they are profaned by societal masters and their classroom propagandists. "Citizenship education." Not since "homeland security" has a term more sickeningly reeked of Fascism. I've witnessed one of the ways that young citizens are "educated" by, in my Constitutionally-protected opinion, a propagandist working on the assassins' behalf when I experienced a certain American university professor in action. I'll share the saddest aspect of it: His students were first to rush to his defense when his Kennedy assassination-related work -- in particular his "definitive" NAA material -- was revealed to be fatally flawed -- and, I would argue, based upon events as they transpired, deceitfully presented -- at a JFK conference he co-sponsored. "Stockholm Syndrome" anyone? Is there nothing else you can do to earn a living? Charles Drago As I expected, abuse and personal attacks. I don't quite see what the anecdote about allegedly flawed research on the Kennedy assassination has to do with the thread posted last week on Citizenship education. I don't think it was in the least fascist. If you really believe that "independent thinking" consists of no more than agreeing with you that almost every conceivable event in the history of mankind must -- or even might -- have been the result of a conspiracy, then I think you are mistaken. Why are you so intent upon being personally insulting? Have I ever cast aspersions with regard to your ability to do your job, whatever it is? Have I made snide references to your family name? I apologize if I have mischaracterized your work and goals. I will happily replace the list I suggested for the Drago-esque new history curriculum with "the Battle of Dealey Plaza and the Clay Shaw trial, and the importance of cynicism"... No doubt a persusal of his posts to the forum -- something I have no intention of carrying out -- would give a more exhaustive list.

I shouldn't care to interpret your lamentations too broadly, so please correct me if I'm in error, but the only conclusion I can infer from your disquisition is that you prefer that this education forum restrict itself to discussion of the official government conspiracy theories, e.g.: A beturbaned cripple holed up in a cave half a world away exercised uncanny powers of control and financing that were entirely invisible to all the governments and intelligence agencies of the world, and thereby induced 19 suicide terrorists to carry out a complex and ingenious, if heinous, plot to hijack four American passenger planes at the same time—using box cutters—to attack and destroy the largest and most important centers of commerce in the largest city of the most powerful nation in the world, and also (while you're up) to launch an attack on the very military headquarters of the most powerful nation in the world, situated in the most heavily protected city in the world. According to this government-generated conspiracy theory, three steel-framed buildings accommodatingly pancaked as a result of fire—the only such buildings in history ever to have accomplished such a feat. So is it, in fact, your position that conspiracy theories are fine to discuss, but only if they are the ones that were generated by a properly constituted government, and that mere citizens should not question such comical and outré fictions, but, contrariwise, limit their discussion to praise and confirmation of those official conspiracy theories? Ashton Gray I'm afraid you misunderstood the general drift of what I was trying to communicate. My "position", as you put it, is that there should be far less domination of the forum by ANY conspiracy theories, government-sponsored or otherwise. It is abundantly clear that such matters are absorbingly interesting to some, and may even be a legitimate subject for research. However, they are of very limited interest to most educators. At this point, I'm obviously leaving myself open to a strom of abuse from gentlemen such as Mr Drago to the effect that I'm obviously deficient as a teacher in that I don't re-write the entire curriculum to base it solely on the various conspiracies which have dominated the forum over recent years. But the fact remains that most educators are much more interested in the Battle of the Somme, the Nuremberg Trials, Citizenship Education, and so on, than we are in "chem trails" or "faked photos". As Andy noted in a previous thread, it has become increasingly difficult for teachers to recommend signing up to the forum to students or academic colleagues. Newcomers who DO sign up are immediately exposed to what can best be described as paranoid ravings about "agents provocateurs", "CIA agents", etc, etc. BTW, I have found it very, very difficult to post anything to the forum for the past month. My original post on this subject I had to pass on to an administrator to post for me. Unlike others, though, I put this down to the bloodymindedness of cyberspace rather than to a conspiracy by conspiracists to silence me...

There is a different sort of controversy here in Spain over citizenship education... The current socialist government (actually, it's no more socialist than New Labour, but that's another story) has just made Citizenship a compulsory subject in secondary schools. This has been fiercely opposed by the Right, including the People's Party and the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. They seem to be opposed to the very idea of citizenship being taught at all rather then having any objection to the specific content of the course being implemented. They see it as the responsibility of the family to educate children in social values. This seems rather strange since the Church supported compulsory religious education in schools for decades under Franco -- but, then again, perhaps that isn't so strange after all... The need for citizenship education here is, I think, inescapable: - there's a rising level of domestic violence with hardly a day going by without horror stories in the press - there's a rising level of xenophobia against immigrant communities - homophobia has been on the increase partly as a result of PP and Church campaigns in favor of "family values" - levels of abstention in recent elections have reached an alarming level For the bishops, however, the case is far from clear. One of them said recently that to cooperate in any way citizenship education was to do the work of the Evil One. Nice to see an informed debate on the issue...

because you have no interest in conspiracy (in paricular the JFK assassination) one wonders why you post at this end of the forum, eh? Sorry, I thought this was "The Education Forum" -- not the JFK Assassination Conspiracy Forum. The thread was entitled "The Future of this Forum". I mistakenly assumed that even members who didn't share your obvious interest in arcane "conspiracies" might be permitted an opinion. Clearly I was wrong...

Gosh, Mr Drago, I feel like I've been savaged by a dead sheep...

have been a member of this forum for a number of years and used to contribute to it regularly. After all, it's the "Education Forum", and I am an educator. Over the past few months, however, I've done so less and less. I check in now and then and encounter little gems like John S's recent posting about Karl Brandt and the Nuremberg Trials, but more and more, I find that there is little to interest me, and little, indeed, that can even loosely be seen as being "educational". Mr White is quite correct in claiming that the forum has been taken over -- but not by imaginary "agents provocateurs". It's been taken over by people with little or no interest in education but rather a rather morbid obsession with conspiracy theories. I'm quite happy to believe that there was something a bit odd about the investigation into JFK's assassination. Perhaps there was even a conspiracy. But the conspiracies which have been alluded to here over the past couple of years included: No one ever went to the Moon Darwin was a hoax Hurricane Katerina was caused by a secret government program to divert bad weather to black areas Various 1960s pop singers were assassinated in a darkly hidden government conspiracy Someone is spraying deadly chemicals over parts of the USA The tsunami was in fact caused by an atomic device planted on the seabed by Mossad agents 911 was clearly a CIA/FBI plot The recent terror attack in Scotland was the work of a secret government agency etc, etc One "researcher" commented with regard to the last "conspiracy" that the fact that the government said Islamic terrorists were responsible was evidence that they weren't because governments always lie... Look through the new posts any day, and you'll see that the vast majority refer to this sort of thing. Clearly this is absorbingly interesting to some, but few "educators" who come across the forum via a search engine or whatever will be greatly impressed... Certainly, they wouldn't be impressed by the sort of silly name-calling that's been happening recently. I would tend to agree with John's suggestion that some of the people posting and constantly starting polemical new threads have rather lost their marbles. Not really surprising, though, considering the paranoia constantly to be noted in their regular postings. So, I think the forum would be greatly improved if Mr Drago's Pied Piper campaign met with success and huge numbers of conspiracy theorists upped and left for some congenial promised land where they can insult each other to their hearts' content. If they want to stay, fine. As John has made plain, he's spent a lot of time and money setting the forum up and maintaining it despite fairly constant criticism by people like Mr White. It's his bat and his ball. If he wants to let the miscreants continue to post, then so be it. If he wants to put them on moderation, fine. If he wants to chuck them out, that's entirely up to him (and Andy, of course).

I have been a member of this forum for a number of years and used to contribute to it regularly. After all, it's the "Education Forum", and I am an educator. Over the past few months, however, I've done so less and less. I check in now and then and encounter little gems like John S's recent posting about Karl Brandt and the Nuremberg Trials, but more and more, I find that there is little to interest me, and little, indeed, that can even loosely be seen as being "educational". Mr White is quite correct in claiming that the forum has been taken over -- but not by imaginary "agents provocateurs". It's been taken over by people with little or no interest in education but rather a rather morbid obsession with conspiracy theories. I'm quite happy to believe that there was something a bit odd about the investigation into JFK's assassination. Perhaps there was even a conspiracy. But the conspiracies which have been alluded to here over the past couple of years included: No one ever went to the Moon Darwin was a hoax Hurricane Katerina was caused by a secret government program to divert bad weather to black areas Various 1960s pop singers were assassinated in a darkly hidden government conspiracy Someone is spraying deadly chemicals over parts of the USA The tsunami was in fact caused by an atomic device planted on the seabed by Mossad agents 911 was clearly a CIA/FBI plot The recent terror attack in Scotland was the work of a secret government agency etc, etc One "researcher" commented with regard to the last "conspiracy" that the fact that the government said Islamic terrorists were responsible was evidence that they weren't because governments always lie... Look through the new posts any day, and you'll see that the vast majority refer to this sort of thing. Clearly this is absorbingly interesting to some, but few "educators" who come across the forum via a search engine or whatever will be greatly impressed... Certainly, they wouldn't be impressed by the sort of silly name-calling that's been happening recently. I would tend to agree with John's suggestion that some of the people posting and constantly starting polemical new threads have rather lost their marbles. Not really surprising, though, considering the paranoia constantly to be noted in their regular postings. So, I think the forum would be greatly improved if Mr Drago's Pied Piper campaign met with success and huge numbers of conspiracy theorists upped and left for some congenial promised land where they can insult each other to their hearts' content. If they want to stay, fine. As John has made plain, he's spent a lot of time and money setting the forum up and maintaining it despite fairly constant criticism by people like Mr White. It's his bat and his ball. If he wants to let the miscreants continue to post, then so be it. If he wants to put them on moderation, fine. If he wants to chuck them out, that's entirely up to him (and Andy, of course).

If the cap fits...

You are not all ears you are all mouth and what pours forth from that orifice is neither instructive nor helpful. You are a fool if you believe that the religious attacks on the UK, Australia and the USA have been inspired by anything other than misguided god heads hoping for a quick route to paradise and a large number of virgins. In answer to your question cited above the banning of the religious indoctrinination of children would be a start Andy, when you sup with the Devil, you need a very long spoon... On the subject of religious education/indoctrination, I'm not convinced I agree with you. For the last 30 years or so, I've taught in various American schools where the very mention of religion in a classroom is forbidden. I can't see that American society is more tolerant as a result of the separation of church and state. I would agree that any sort of single-religion approach would be bad, but when religious belief provides such a strong motivation for people across the world, perhaps it's better that the phenomenon be studied. Have a look at the IB World Religions curriculum and see if that meets your objections to religion in school... Mr Rigby, who this morning appeared to be accusing you of racism, has either not read your many, many posts over the years, or is very silly, or is so wrapped up in the Sid Walker-type "it must all be the CIA and Mossad" mind-set that he is quite unable to realize that it IS possible to disagree with bizarre conspiracy theories without being to tool of international Zionism...

Isn't that what some socialists and communists thought when Hitler came to power? Not that I would dream of suggesting any sort of similarity between M. Sarkozy and Herr Hitler. Heaven forfend.

Hi, Penny. I'm afraid I don't know of any school in Madrid that offers the sort of assistance you're talking about in English. There may be something available in Spanish, but I don't know how you'd go about finding out. Probably the best bet would be to contact the Study Center Foundation which is, as far as I know, the only provider of special ed in English in Madrid. They're really good people and would be happy to help you with your research, I'm sure. Study Center Foundation Valentin Robledo, 2 Pozuelo de Alarcon 28224 Madrid Tel. 917-155-138 Most of the international, English-medium schools are relatively small and have very, very limited provisions for special needs of any sort at all...

I'm not sure how this moved from the behavior of members to the behavior of Americans, but... I've always found the Americans with whom I have had to deal generally friendly, helpful and good-natured (with the exception of immigration officers at the airport who would, I think, have been happier and felt more at home in Stasi uniforms). Londoners, on the other hand... When I was teaching in Iran during the Revolution, one of the teenage girls I taught went to London. She got a taxi from the airport. When he discovered she was Iranian, the driver order her out of his cab... I've generally found Londoners to be a pretty miserable bunch. It's probably due to overcrowding, pollution, the weather, a succession of conservative governments and the performance of national sporting teams. We Spaniards are much more relaxed, good-humored and laid back...

I think correspondents who are so critical of Richard's fellow teachers from the relative security of posts in state schools should keep in mind the particular difficulties involved in "taking a stand" in a place like IST. I know myself from personal experience how much the publically-expressed support of colleagues, parents, board members and parents can mean to a teacher who has been the victim of such unfair treatment. I urge Ricahrd's colleagues to show their support, but I do understand how difficult this is to do, and I wish some of the people writing here would show just a little more understanding...

The problem is that it gets much of its credibility from the fact that people do try to censor it. The best way of dealing with this nonsense is by arguing against it as I have done. Which why I am usually against censorship, but some things do go beyond the pale. To post this sort of drivel right before Holocaust Day seems to put this in that category. This person seems to be of the view that all the evils of the world can be blamed on a Jewish conspiracy -- as you observed yourself, that's straight out of Mein Kampf. The point I made about credibility is that it's difficult for the ill-informed to take seriously posts made by bona fide educators like you and Andy when they're right alongside this sort of poison. And yes, Sid, I WOULD ban Mein Kampf and the Protocol of the Elders of Zion from an "education" forum. These documents are widely available on "specialized" sites should serious researchers wish to consult them, or on a myriad of neo-Nazi and Holocaust denial sites for those who believe in that stuff. They have no place on a site which is purportedly for those involved in education.

Whilst I am not usually in favor of any sort of censorship, this sort of rubbish is a clear incitement to racial hatred and should be removed from the forum brfore it destroys its credibility.

I first ran into Richard in a discussion on using new media to teach IB history. I asked how he managed to get through the very extensive and demanding curriculum and still manage to do interesting and innovative things with the kids. It wasn't till I met him when he was escorting a crowd of teenagers on a fireld trip to Madrid that I began to understand how he does it. Enthusiasm positively bubbles out of the guy! His dedication and flair were even more obvious "face-to-face" than they are on his excellent IST Humanities website to which I (and my IB students and colleagues) have been frequent visitors. It's quite a long time since I've met anyone quite as committed to education. As far as I'm concerned, and educational administrator who feels their school would be a better place without someone like Richard needs to take a long leave of absence and lie down in a darkened room until he recovers.

I started with [as a pilot] in the middle of last year and the whole school started with it in September. I use it pretty extensively but discover new things about it all the time... I'm very much an amateur when it comes to matters technical but the relative simplicity of the Moodle set up certainly seems to be making my life a bit easier...

Andy, Owen: It's often said that when one sups with the Devil, it's prudent to use a long spoon. The dominance of an education forum by various forms of conspiracy theorist has seemed to lead to a growing number of contributors who, like Mark, consider any "official" view to be tainted. Last year, there were a number of threads which were blatantly used by neo-Nazis to spread their views concerning the "Zionist myth" of the Holocaust. Attempts by Andy and others to use genuinely historical evidence to counter such lies, the threads rapidly descended into personal abuse which led me, and others, to simply withdraw from the debate. The current slew of posts about Hitler seem to focus on the fact that he won the Iron Cross in World War I and on irrelevant "body counts" comparing the nazi regime with Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot -- or, indeed, with the current Israeli government. Recent books on the Nazi regime by, for example, Evans or Kershaw have all referred to both points. I certainly can't see any evidence whatsoever of an "official" attempt to "hide" these facts. On the other hand, I can't see any reference to the equally established fact that Hitler was strongly distrusted by his comrades at the front by the Hitler apologists (see, for example, Ferguson's "Pity of War" pp 174-175: "his comrades in the Barvarian infantry found him something of an oddball -- humorless and punctilliously patriotic...") The record of the Nazi regime was one which cannot but horrify anyone who has studied it in any depth: compulsory sterilization of the "racially impure", the burning of books, wide use of regime-approved torture by security forces, instructions "from the top" to ignore the "rules of war" regarding the treatment of civilians and PoWs on the Esatern Front, the euthanasia applied to the mentally deficient with Hitler's specific approval, Nazi-organized murder of Jews in Kristallnacht, confinement of homosexuals, Jews, gypsies and Jehova's Witnesses in concentration camps, deliberate extermination of millions of Jews as part of the "Final Solution", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. It's a bit surprising, perhaps, that someone with the attitude towards education and educators which Sid claims to have should choose to participate in an "education forum". I also like to think about girls and read novels rather than doing my class assignments, but I wouldn't think of claiming that this somehow qualified as a recommendation for my views on modern history. The historical record is really quite clear. No, history has NOT misjudged Adolf Hitler...

Everything's fine now, Andy...

Andy, something really odd's still happening this morning. I don't know enough about how the school's firewall works, but it keeps blocking something while I'm on here...