Michael Walton

I'm not ignoring you, Sandy. I was out making a living today LOL. I think this boils down to projection, Sandy. You're projecting something that means something else onto prothesis to equal a missing tooth. Said another way, it's how you're interpreting what the form says which is hardly rock solid evidence. And not to go off on too different of a tangent here - and apologies to Tracy who does not believe there was a conspiracy - but you may want to read how this is written and how testimony and statements are interpreted and written about. Sorry Sandy but your analysis of this tooth thing doesn't hold a candle to how Mr Hay wrote about the case as a whole. https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/ayton-mel-and-david-von-pein-beyond-reasonable-doubt Hate to say it Sandy but if I was a lawyer and I'd need an investigator, I sure wouldn't want you in my corner. I know that sounds mean but it's simply true the way you've fallen so deeply for this Hardly Lee baloney without being able to see it for the fictional story it is.

Andrej, would you mind telling me why you have not even replied to my "cart before the horse" comment above? I mean, once again, this is another example of someone getting way too carried away with the minutiae of the testimony, in this case Malcolm Perry, without even bothering to at least try to explain HOW the body was squirreled away sometime between when the caravan left Parkland to the airport. The video clips above show how the transport took place on film as well as the layout of 26000. Instead of sitting around and dreaming that, "Oh, yeah, Lifton said it was squirreled away so it's got to be true. Now on to proving Perry was wrong," try imagining this to have happened in real time. According to you, you're jumping to B when you haven't even bothered to attempt to explain how it started out at A. And I also asked you - if the Mad Doctors cut up the body to hide conspiracy, why in the world did they not even bother trying to cover up the back wound, the very hole in the body they desperately needed to prove the fake Single Bullet Theory? Still waiting Andrej...

Do you have anything of value to add here? Do you have any answers at all about what I'm talking about here? Obsessing? I'm not the one going around posting about a changed avatar, as if that matters when we're supposed to be talking about this case. You're the ONLY person on this forum who has ever brought it up. Besides, what's it to you? So tell me - from the time the hearse left Parkland - in broad daylight and around the general public - until the coffin was hauled up the steps into 26000 how did the Mad Doctors open up the coffin, take the body out, put it into a body bag and hide it - somewhere(!) - and not a single person in that caravan has ever come forward to say "Yes, I saw it happen" 54 years on? Do you know? Or will you take old Dave's second and third generation hearsay as gospel...no questions asked?

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/ayton-mel-and-david-von-pein-beyond-reasonable-doubt This is one of the best critiques I've ever read, not only about this book, but about the conflicting evidence of the case as a whole. This link should somehow be pinned to Education Forum somewhere as a must-read for all who visit here. Is Martin Hay still around?

Andrej, would you mind telling me why you have not even replied to my "cart before the horse" comment above? I mean, once again, this is another example of someone getting way too carried away with the minutiae of the testimony, in this case Malcolm Perry, without even bothering to at least try to explain HOW the body was squirreled away sometime between when the caravan left Parkland to the airport. The video clips above show how the transport took place on film as well as the layout of 26000. Instead of sitting around and dreaming that, "Oh, yeah, Lifton said it was squirreled away so it's got to be true. Now on to proving Perry was wrong," try imagining this to have happened in real time. According to you, you're jumping to B when you haven't even bothered to attempt to explain how it started out at A. And I also asked you - if the Mad Doctors cut up the body to hide conspiracy, why in the world did they not even bother trying to cover up the back wound, the very hole in the body they desperately needed to prove the fake Single Bullet Theory?

Rick, I read that the Dallas coffin got busted en route. So you have to ask yourself - big deal? This is how Lifton has made his case for the thrumming copter theory. For example, and I know this is not going to answer your "switched coffins" concern 100%, but he does this throughout his writings. Burkley, Kennedy's doctor, said he was with the coffin the entire time. Undeterred, Lifton will then go to another source to "prove" Burkley was wrong. I'm putting this here because there's another thread about the thrumming copter theory. I think this, too, is important info to consider about the scalpels at the ready theory that's Lifton's. *** First you called me a schmuck and now because I changed my avatar, what I'm saying about your theory is rubbish? That's fine, Dave. It still doesn't change the fact that your body alteration theory is a flight of fantasy. And though she's quite subtle in her writing (the story JDE posted on his site above), it looks like M. Cranor doesn't think too highly of your theory as well. Does that make her a schmuck as well? I found this for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xel2lnpvY5Y When was the body squirreled away by the Mad Doctors during this journey? And please don't tell me it's during the swearing in. That'd be about as plausible you saying Perry didn't cut through the wound. It just flies against all reason and plausibility. And take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZtWB-4s-R4 With all the people on board milling about mid-flight - and with them removing the seats to make a special place to put the coffin for the return to DC - do you really think someone would have hurriedly removed the body back there? And where would they have put the body? The Irish Mafia did not want to put the body in the cargo hold for this very reason. They thought it would be undignified to put it down in the cargo hold, hence, the little private spot they found in the back. And yes, it was actually convenient to park it there as well as it's pretty close to the rear entrance where it was brought in and taken off later in DC. Would any of them allowed the Mad Doctors to have removed the body and then thrown it down into the cargo hold? Or maybe find some very tight nook *somewhere* on the flight deck to stuff it in and hide it? Come on, Dave. You have to have a "decency" or two bone in your body to realize that this whole thrumming copter and scalpels at the ready theory holds about as much water as the Hardly Lee "Oswald and his Mom had clones from Europe 13 whole years before 11/22" fiction. And I've said this before but don't mind saying it again. I really truly think it's disgraceful of you to be trying to twist and turn Malcolm Perry's clearly stated record that he DID cut into the throat wound in order to further bolster your thrumming copter theory. IMO - it's outrageously distasteful of you. And one other thing - look how supporters here are even talking about how the coffin selection could be iffy? I mean the madness to support these outlandish theories just never stops. *** Andrej - you're putting the cart before the horse. If the Mad Doctors couldn't get a hold of the body when there were so many upset, crying, angry people around guarding the body with their lives, why put numbers on an image of the throat wound trying to prove something that never happened in the first place? And ask yourself - what about the back wound? The autopsy photo clearly shows that that shot would not have exited with a downward trajectory through the throat wound. Right? Yet, Dave, you and others who believe this theory think that the Mad Doctors did surgery to the body before the autopsy. So why didn't they work feverishly to somehow try to cover up the back wound? Or did they just forget to try to cover that wound up? That's what I've never understood about the way people think about this case. There's plenty of evidence to prove the case for conspiracy, including the photos and the Z film. Yet, it's always got to be more. More conspiracy, more over-analyzing of things until you wind up with theories that are nothing but malarkey.

Facts according to who....you? To me? I've NEVER said he needed that. I'm comfortable with the fact of what my eyes tell me - no X on the chart and teeth in the exhumation photos. All the rest of it (e.g. the secret meaning of the word missing on the chart) is just white noise.

I've probably just gone nuts....from all of this speculation.

That's just speculation. The only way to know is to ask him but I'm sure he's no longer around so it's easy for missing teeth supporters to make open-ended speculateve statements like this. It's easy to assume that just because there's no X written on the tooth but there IS the word MISSING written that the two are somehow related.

Andrej - you're putting the cart before the horse. If the Mad Doctors couldn't get a hold of the body when there were so many upset, crying, angry people around guarding the body with their lives, why put numbers on an image of the throat wound trying to prove something that never happened in the first place? And ask yourself - what about the back wound? The autopsy photo clearly shows that that shot would not have exited with a downward trajectory through the throat wound. Right? Yet, Dave, you and others who believe this theory think that the Mad Doctors did surgery to the body before the autopsy. So why didn't they work feverishly to somehow try to cover up the back wound? Or did they just forget to try to cover that wound up? That's what I've never understood about the way people think about this case. There's plenty of evidence to prove the case for conspiracy, including the photos and the Z film. Yet, it's always got to be more. More conspiracy, more over-analyzing of things until you wind up with theories that are nothing but malarkey.

First you called me a schmuck and now because I changed my avatar, what I'm saying about your theory is rubbish? That's fine, Dave. It still doesn't change the fact that your body alteration theory is a flight of fantasy. And though she's quite subtle in her writing (the story JDE posted on his site above), it looks like M. Cranor doesn't think too highly of your theory as well. Does that make her a schmuck as well? I found this for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xel2lnpvY5Y When was the body squirreled away by the Mad Doctors during this journey? And please don't tell me it's during the swearing in. That'd be about as plausible you saying Perry didn't cut through the wound. It just flies against all reason and plausibility. And take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZtWB-4s-R4 With all the people on board milling about mid-flight - and with them removing the seats to make a special place to put the coffin for the return to DC - do you really think someone would have hurriedly removed the body back there? And where would they have put the body? The Irish Mafia did not want to put the body in the cargo hold for this very reason. They thought it would be undignified to put it down in the cargo hold, hence, the little private spot they found in the back. And yes, it was actually convenient to park it there as well as it's pretty close to the rear entrance where it was brought in and taken off later in DC. Would any of them allowed the Mad Doctors to have removed the body and then thrown it down into the cargo hold? Or maybe find some very tight nook *somewhere* on the flight deck to stuff it in and hide it? Come on, Dave. You have to have a "decency" or two bone in your body to realize that this whole thrumming copter and scalpels at the ready theory holds about as much water as the Hardly Lee "Oswald and his Mom had clones from Europe 13 whole years before 11/22" fiction. And I've said this before but don't mind saying it again. I really truly think it's disgraceful of you to be trying to twist and turn Malcolm Perry's clearly stated record that he DID cut into the throat wound in order to further bolster your thrumming copter theory. IMO - it's outrageously distasteful of you.

We're going around in circles here because I and others have asked YOU to explain no X on the tooth chart. If you can't explain it then it's clear that there was no missing tooth.

Yep that's the chart alright. And I'm still waiting for that X to magically appear on the front tooth showing it was missing. And then I'll have to wait for the same front tooth to magically disappear in the exhumation photos.

I can distinguish different photos too. But funnily my conclusions always convince me I'm looking at the same person...that of the one and only Lee Harvey Oswald.

Now that's funny Chris. No math in the world can prove something that is already false. Open your eyes and watch the Z and Nix combined video and you have your answer. But that's expecting way too much from you and Dave.

Eddy, Let me see if I can help you understand and boil down Chris and Dave's math theory to the bare essentials. The bottom line is two FBI guys made a diorama of Dealey Plaza the weekend of the murder. The first version of their diorama showed little toy cars on Elm Street in the position of the shots. They obviously made a mistake because for the Z313 shot - the head shot - they had the car way down almost right next to the knoll steps where the old guys were standing. We all know that that's not what really happened. Now try to keep an open mind here. But how do we know that the head shot did not happen way down there? It's simple - you just have to watch the existing Zapruder film. And even better, you can also watch the Nix film. As a matter of fact, there exists a video on YTV where someone took both of the films and matched them up frame per frame. The end result proves two things: 1) both films match up perfectly; 2) both films prove that the FBI guys who made their diorama got it wrong. That, in a nutshell, is basically it. The FBI guys made a mistake. And during that weekend, the diorama was corrected and the head shot was brought up to where it's supposed to be, more or less the same position as what we see in the Z film and also the Nix film. Simple, right? Not according to Chris and Dave. The Math Team here thinks that something far more sinister happened. They think that an entirely different Z film exists showing shots that actually happened way down by the steps and the old guys. They also believe that the Z film that we can see on YTV was actually filmed in 48 FPS, and then, sneakily and sinisterly, the Bad Secret Agents took out 67% of those frames. It *used to be* 67% but now Chris is saying it's 72% of the frames. But anyway, these removed frames removed enough of the footage to move the shots to where we basically see them on any YTV Zapruder copy. So where does the Math come in? The FBI also did a survey of Dealey so Chris and Dave here are using Math and Geometry to further "prove" that this non-existent secret never-before-seen-by-the-public Z film exists. That's what it all boils down to. Now keep in mind here that Dave Josephs, who is completely and totally anti-WC, meaning he supposedly does not believe *anything* in that written record, will actually pick and choose from that lying xxxx of a document to further "solve" this theory. In other words, he doesn't believe the WC except when it helps him "prove" one of this theories. And now, their more recent exciting and revealing solution to this theory is the Tina Towner film has been discovered to be fake as well(!) But anyway, this is basically what they're doing - they're adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, and formulizing the numbers - and numbers from those numbers - from the surveys to prove all of this. They're both playing the John Nash secret agent role here. Remember that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB9Gzz3yhYY No matter what you tell them - that there's only one Z film and that film *proves conspiracy* because the shooting sequence completely negates the ridiculous SBT - neither of them will listen. In their minds, they're 100% correct and deep into this theory of numbers and missing frames and fake films and the lying liars FBI agents.

Oh xxxx - this is on me! Sorry but I got her mixed up with another great one, Meagher. But they're both fantastic. Insightful, plausible and always with a ring of truth to them. Andrej - I'm politely and respectfully asking you to please not post those very graphic and ghastly images. I had asked you to please not post them on another thread as well. I've asked you in the past as it can be very disrespectful to the Kennedy family. Please remove them, thank you. Also, there's simply no reason to muddy the waters here on a post that Jim is posting regarding Ms. Cranor. Thanks.

I thought Big Jim Hicks was the one that has that big dangling antenna sticking out of his back pocket...like he was one of the radio men?

I've noticed that on here from time to time. When it's "All Hardly Lee All the Time," then that's what you hear. But then, as he and others move around the board he and others will only sometime mention Hardly Lee, while other times not at all. The running line is sometimes, "CIA said he was there...such and such time...ran into Odio....blah blah blah....so, OH YEAH and it was HARVEY, by the way."

It's great to read a voice from the distant past as well as one that offers a smart analysis of what happened. Now if someone could convince Lifton to knock off the silliness of his *NEW*(!) discovery that Perry didn't really say he cut into the throat wound to insert the trach tube, and further trying to "prove" his goofy thrumming copter body alteration baloney. To put it kindly I think it's disgraceful to the memory of Perry that he's trying to stir that pot.

I know I've said this over and over ad nauseum, but I just don't see how the Russians could have been involved in some way with 11.22. And yes, I've read both of the papers that Tom Graves recommended. Again, as I read them, all I picked up was a lot of double crossing and spy intrigue. Bill Simpich's State Secret IMO seems to tell the closest to what MAY have happened leading up to 11.22. And I say MAY have but SS certainly shows a pattern of leading the patsy around until he starts working in the book depository: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html *** I want to post this here as well as an alternative to the theory of "Dulles was in on it." When I read Markus's paper, what stood out for me was how Dulles either seemed clueless, genuinely confused, or both. But it certainly didn't seem like it was a guy who has been heavily involved in planning the murder. *** But below are three pages from the paper. The ongoing story about Allen Dulles was he was in on it, knew what was going to happen, planned it out and so on. So I ask here - really? It's always been amazing about how a fired government bureaucrat could have got himself on this "blue ribbon" WC panel. But if Dulles had really been involved, is it entirely possible that he'd be this totally clueless about what was going on with the stretcher bullet? I'm guessing not likely. If he had been involved, he would have kept his mouth shut here and not said anything and let Specter do all of the work. After all, Oswald was already dead so it was just a mere formality to go through the motions here with the WC - they ALL knew what the outcome was going to be anyway. But he's actually showing interest to a reported other bullet that was supposedly found on Kennedy's stretcher - this could actually have been another wholly intact bullet that fell out of his back wound, which I think personally happened. But this Dulles testimony that Markus mentions here actually confirms for me that I really don't think Dulles was involved.

The above statement actually makes no sense whatsoever. This is not a dental chart thread nor a dental chart forum. If you've forgotten the name of this thread I've kindly placed it here for you to remind you WHY this thread has been dragged out now to 34 pages: INDISPUTABLE Evidence for Harvey & Lee -- Oswald was missing a FRONT TOOTH, but his exhumed body was not! NEW EVIDENCE FOUND And Larsen's theory here, what it's worth, is not correct. The reason is simple - no dentist would have forgotten to put an X on the FRONT tooth diagram of the patient's chart. To put it kindly he'd be held for negligence for missing something so obvious.

It was a hand held camera, Ron, shooting on a medium that is as big as a pinky nail with a lens that was consumer grade - and not that great considering 60's era tech. He was zoomed in from a decent distance away from the subject - this make it harder to hold a steady shot from each and every frame especially without a tripod. The point being, this was not a phone camera with 20 megapixels and with an auto stabilization and on a tripod. There's going to be jiggle and movements from frame to frame.

These numbers make absolutely no sense. And here is the ultimate proof that neither film was edited or altered in any way - two cameras running at approximately the same FPS by two different people totally unrelated to one another. Their films have been matched up - and all movements are exactly the same. So if 72% (in the past Chris said it was 67% so I guess he's made either a calculation error or correction since then) of the frames were removed, do you really think that these two films would be matched up perfectly like below? Unless of course the Nix film was by some chance recorded at a higher FPS and a percentage of frames were removed from THAT film as well. And of course the biggest and unsaid question of all - WHY were the frames removed in the first place? WHAT would those removed frames reveal about the film that they needed to be removed? Chris, do you care to elaborate?

Dave, you can call me all the names you want. But what you fail to realize Dave is that there are plenty of theories du jour. Life doesn't happen that way and it didn't happen in this case as well. To boot: Right wingers did it CIA did it Gays did it LBJ did it Nixon did it Generals did it Hoover did it Italians did it French mob did it USA mob did it KGB did it Mac Wallace did it Rip Robertson did it ONI did it Castro/Cuba did it Dulles did it Then you have: Body snuck out of coffin mid-flight [or at Love], thrown onto thrumming copter in DC, and altered * NEW Perry didn't cut into throat wound proving body alteration ** Proof 1 - audio in video interview of Perry does not sync up ** Proof 2 - Bob Groden said Perry told him Oswald had a clone whose mother was also a clone * Proof 1 - missing teeth in the dental charts * Proof 2 - Oswald and clone had different sloped shoulders * Proof 3 - Oswald's clone's Mom was frumpy and never smiled * Proof 4 - TX Oswald's Mom was happy and smiled a lot * Proof 5 - Contrast in Oswald photos is different * Proof 6 - Different heights of Oswald in different photos Z film was faked as in: * Film shot at 48 FPS and 67% of frames removed * At around Z 160, Elm street painted in to cover something up * Frames were flipped * Back head wound painted out An entirely different Z film exists showing everything but has yet to turn up Nix and Muchmore films also faked so they sync up with Z film Shots came from pavilion Shots came from storm sewer in roadway Greer/Kellerman shot JFK SS agents in Queen Mary shot JFK Umbrella man shot JFK Babushka lady had flashlight signalling shooters to fire or not Jackie shot JFK Autopsy photos were faked Photo of Ruby shooting Oswald was fake as in: * Microphone hanging from ceiling appears and disappears Towner film was faked Carousel club basement was assassination HQ One of the old guys on knoll had a black object/pistol in hand I could go on. So as you see Dave, is it any wonder why I get upset when I'm on here? My suggestion is watch the episode below of Forensic Files. These are actual murder cases. In it, you'll hear fantastical stories made up by the suspects and you'll also hear seasoned detectives say such things as "implausible," "unreal," and so on. If you like the show, there are over 300 episodes free online. Anyway, the JFK murder, despite all of the wild theories listed above, was quite simple. Technology during that era, combined with a very simple 6-second shooting sequence, did the deed. Once the head exploded, the deed was done and the cover up began. But it was not necessary to alter the body and fix the Z film - the vast, lawerly machinations of the blue-ribbon WC would do that, twisting and turning the record to reach the desired conclusion and this would work much more efficiently than attempting to alter the Z film, the photos, and so on. What real good would it have done to try to alter the wounds? Nothing.