MC Mystery Man not a mystery

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

I noted a few options in my earlier message but unless you can verify that the message was sent pre-assassination

I don't see how you could write off the option that it has something to do with Oswald and/or the assassination?

-- Larry

No, the memo itself makes reference to a decision that Ambassador Mann made at 6:00 PM, so it was definitely post-assassination.

I just think that J.C. King knew who this person was. Win Scott knew that King knew who this person was and Mann was so concerned about this particular person, and the circumstances of his picture being taken (the place and time) that he wanted copies of the photos hand delivered by special airplane.

And no, I don't think that these people believed that the photos were photos of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Steve Thomas

[Ashton Gray]

In a letter dated 11/22/63 from Ambassador to Mexico, Winfield Scott to J.C. King, Chief WH Division, Scott writes, "Reference is made to our conversation of 22 November in which I requested permission to give the Legal Attache copies of photographs of a certain person who is known to you."

An undated typewritten note at the bottom of the page says, "These photographs were later identified as not being Lee Harvey Oswald."

King knew who this person was and,

Scott knew he knew.

Russ Holmes Work File 104-10414-10245

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=5992

Steve Thomas

It's curious, isn't it, that elsewhere on the Mary Ferrell site there is this copy of the same letter, but that it has handwritten on the bottom—which had to have been added on or very likely after 22 November 1963—"File: Lee Henry Oswald".

Ashton

[Thomas Graves]

I have posted this before but per Gerry Hemming Sague's nationality was Slavic and he was recruited for the CIA in Germany in early 1950s by William K. Harvey.

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Tim,

Which thread (and post # if possible) was that in?

Thanks,

--Thomas

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[Lee Forman]

I have posted this before but per Gerry Hemming Sague's nationality was Slavic and he was recruited for the CIA in Germany in early 1950s by William K. Harvey.

That sounds accurate. I understood that he would be about 80 if he was alive today. I have tried to find him through the old conventional methods here in the US unsuccessfully.

- lee

[James Richards]

James,

Richard Helms also knew who this man was.

I am having trouble posting anything at the moment but I have a document which suggests Helms was certainly in the loop regarding the operations involving this guy.

James

Could you also send it to me?

sthomas@ohio.lib.in.us

If you'd like, I could try and post it on the Forum.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Things seem to be working again. Here it is.

James

[Thomas Graves]

I have posted this before but per Gerry Hemming Sague's nationality was Slavic and he was recruited for the CIA in Germany in early 1950s by William K. Harvey.

(emphasis added by Thomas Graves)

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Tim,

Which thread (and post # if possible) was that in?

Thanks,

--Thomas

_________________________

Or was it in a Personal Message or an e-mail?

I hope you aren't putting the word "Slavic" in Gerry's mouth, Tim, just because Russians are Slavs. (We all know that you think and sometimes preach that the Ruskies hit JFK...)

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Edited September 30, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Tim Gratz]

I will have to check with Gerry. Perhaps James knows.

He was NOT a Russian. I am quite sure he was not German either but he was from an Eastern European country.

I will double-check and clarify.

[Mark Knight]

From this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3366

Refer to post #2, by Gerry Hemming:

"Saul is the person erroneously identified as LHO when photographed leaving both the Soviet and Cuban Embassies [and the separate Cuban Consulate residence where I stayed after leaving Cuba, and was assisted by Sylvia Duran in my Sandinista activities.] in Mexico City.

He was born Mario Tauler Sague near Leipzig during the 1920s, and was recruited by Bill Harvey in Berlin after years of work with the "Gehlen Organization". Our "Little Joe" Garman called him "Sal Saggy". He assisted the "Raul" in the MLK, Jr. assassination during the "bug-out" to Montreal, Quebec; where Saul had helped organize the right-wing "R'assemblent National" terrorist group. One of our ex-French Foreign Legionnaire instructors was wounded during a shoot-out involving said group."

So this is where Hemming brought up Saul Sague's nationality.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Mark Knight

[Thomas Graves]

From this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3366

Refer to post #2, by Gerry Hemming:

"Saul is the person erroneously identified as LHO when photographed leaving both the Soviet and Cuban Embassies [and the separate Cuban Consulate residence where I stayed after leaving Cuba, and was assisted by Sylvia Duran in my Sandinista activities.] in Mexico City.

He was born Mario Tauler Sague near Leipzig during the 1920s, and was recruited by Bill Harvey in Berlin after years of work with the "Gehlen Organization". Our "Little Joe" Garman called him "Sal Saggy". He assisted the "Raul" in the MLK, Jr. assassination during the "bug-out" to Montreal, Quebec; where Saul had helped organize the right-wing "R'assemblent National" terrorist group. One of our ex-French Foreign Legionnaire instructors was wounded during a shoot-out involving said group."

So this is where Hemming brought up Saul Sague's nationality.

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Mark,

And what "nationality"was that? German? (There are lots of villages and towns in Germany which are close to Leipzig.) Polish? Czech? All we know from what Hemming said (above) is that Sague was born near Leipzig Germany, which is only about 100 miles from both Poland and the Czech Republic, the two Slavic countries which are geographically-speaking the closest to so-called Western Europe.

In addition to Sague's nationality, I'm trying to determine what his ancestry or ethnicity is/was because my experience has been that oftentimes people of a certain ancestry or ethnicity exhibit distinguishing characteristics. "Pure blooded" Czechs and Slovaks tend to have a light complexion, high cheekbones, blue eyes and brown hair. (You don't see as much blond hair in the Czech Republic and Slovakia as you do in Poland and Russia because the Vikings were much more active in the latter two countries than the former two.

My nationality is U.S.A. or "American" because I was born in the U.S.A. just like Bruce Springstein LOL. I'm a U.S. citizen and therefore my nationality is "American." Of course some people become naturalized citizens of a country by going through a special legal process.

My ancestry (or ethnicity), however, is Irish, Scottish, Swedish, Ukrainian, and French (probably Norman French).

In your post I think you're saying that Hemming is suggesting only that Sague's nationality (but not necessarily his ancestry or ethnicity) is/was German simply because Sague was born near Leipzig, a city inside Germany. Am I "reading" your post correctly?

Thanks,

--Thomas

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Edited October 1, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Mark Knight]

In post #32 on this very thread, Tim Gratz was asking about Sague's nationality. So my post addressed Gratz's question. [As Hemming's onetime "right-hand man," I'm surprised Gratz hadn't already found that answer himself.]

I have no information on Sague's ethnicity...or Gratz's, for that matter.

Therefore, I chose not to address ethnicity in my post post above...because I don't have that answer. I try to NOT answer when I [or my references] don't have any information to offer.

Is my post clearer now, Mr. Graves?

Edited October 2, 2007 by Mark Knight

[Chuck Robbins]

Daniel,

But to get more back on-topic, I think it's of interest that Scott is saying to his superior "a certain person who is known to you." That does seem to be suggestive of a potential double-agent type.........the kind of person who would be referred to very carefully in internal discussions, and about which only "upper management" would have "all the facts"?

Which is why I opened this thread in the first place.

For 45 years, we've been told that this man's identity is unknown; but that's not the case. His identity WAS known, and maybe still is by a handful of people.

I found it astounding that King was not interviewed by the Rockefeller or Church Committees (at least I didn't find any testimony on the Mary Ferrell pages.

I don't know if he was interviewed by the HSCA or not.

Steve Thomas

More amazing is the fact that this man was not made to come forward and submit to an intense interrogation in order

to determine what involvement or connection he may, or may not, have had with LHO and/or the Soviet and Cuban

officials he had been associating with.

How in the world could an investigation be turned off simply because someone in the CIA opined that the man would be

embarrassed if he were to be publicly linked to the situation in MC.

The only mystery to me is how this "unknown" man could be known to our intel services, yet, their working relationship

could be swept under the carpet so easily.

The portion of the MC transcript where "LHO" said he could not stay in MC because he would have to use his "real name"

makes sense when you consider that the man , Sague, who was not LHO, could put the operation in danger if his cover or alias should be blown.

"LHO" being in contact w/ Legat in MC is one piece of information which really puts the FBI squarely in the middle of the

"Operation Oswald" being performed.

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

What I'm thinking is that the memo in question here refers to photos of Oswald and that both parties are well

aware of who he was and strange goings on around him (perhaps only known fully to CI/SIG) and they are

dancing around that fact.

I think the whole reference to Lee Harvey Oswald is a smoke screen.

In one of the photos of the Mexican City Mystery Man, it looks like he might be carrying a diplomatic pouch and looking at a passport.

What did or does a diplomatic pouch look like?

Could he have been operating under a diplomatic cover?

Steve Thomas

[Kathleen Collins]

More amazing is the fact that this man was not made to come forward and submit to an intense interrogation in order

to determine what involvement or connection he may, or may not, have had with LHO and/or the Soviet and Cuban

officials he had been associating with.

How in the world could an investigation be turned off simply because someone in the CIA opined that the man would be

embarrassed if he were to be publicly linked to the situation in MC.

The only mystery to me is how this "unknown" man could be known to our intel services, yet, their working relationship

could be swept under the carpet so easily.

The portion of the MC transcript where "LHO" said he could not stay in MC because he would have to use his "real name"

makes sense when you consider that the man , Sague, who was not LHO, could put the operation in danger if his cover or alias should be blown.

"LHO" being in contact w/ Legat in MC is one piece of information which really puts the FBI squarely in the middle of the

"Operation Oswald" being performed.

In Men on the Sixth Floor by Glen Sample and Texas in the Morning by Madeleine Brown, as reviewed by Walt Brown, the authors tell us that Ralph Geb had something to do with the "mysterious Saul" and was a friend to Mac Wallace. Was Ralph Geb the mystery man photographed in Mexico City? Mac Wallace was on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Was Geb with "Saul" during the Assassination? A fingerprint of Mac Wallace's was found on a box on the sixth floor after the Assassination. Mac Wallace was "Lyndon's Boy."

Could somebody please tell me how Ralph Geb played into this?

Kathy

[Thomas Graves]

[...] Was Ralph Geb the mystery man photographed in Mexico City? [...]

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Kathy,

See James Richards' post (#21) and Tim Gratz's post (#22) on the Oswald in Mexico City thread, currently on the third page of this forum.

--Thomas

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Edited October 4, 2007 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 9/24/2007 at 1:50 PM, Steve Thomas said:

In a letter dated 11/22/63 from Ambassador to Mexico, Winfield Scott to J.C. King, Chief WH Division, Scott writes, "Reference is made to our conversation of 22 November in which I requested permission to give the Legal Attache copies of photographs of a certain person who is known to you."

An undated typewritten note at the bottom of the page says, "These photographs were later identified as not being Lee Harvey Oswald."

King knew who this person was and,

Scott knew he knew.

Russ Holmes Work File 104-10414-10245

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=5992

Steve Thomas

Dear Steve,

How do we know that the photos referred to were of our traditional husky-looking "Mexico City Mystery Man," some of which were taken by the LILYRIC camera at 12:16 pm October 2, 1963, (one day after someone had identified himself as "Lee Oswald" in a phone call to the Soviet Embassy), instead of the short, blond, thin-faced KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, who was "captured" by the same camera just 11 minutes earlier that day?

If Mexico City CIA personnel were able to identify this short, blond, thin-faced guy as "Leon" (short for Leonov), then that would suggest that J.C. King already knew of him, too, wouldn't it?

--  Tommy

Edited March 21, 2017 by Thomas Graves