Marsmanship/Ballistics 101

[Antti Hynonen]

This is actually from an older thread and posting started by DBoylan.

In DBoylans posting there are two affidavits by private eyes called Hathcock and Payne, who had a somewhat strange encounter with Loren Hall and Gerry Hemming in Los Angeles.

The two men had left a Johnson 30.06 semi-auto rifle with a 30x Bushnell scope, at the office of the private eyes.

Although this issue was already partially covered in the older thread I'd like to ask: Are there any photos or other evidence of such a rifle being found at Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63?

The rifle was picked up prior to the assassination by one of these men and a Mexican. According to Mr. Payne he said something to the effect of: if the scope was sighted right one could hit a dime at 500 yards. Also one of the men said in their statement that they recalled seeing a photo from Dealey on 11/22/63, of a detective (Lt. Day?) carrying such a rifle.

Am I mistaken, or is there anything of value to add to this? Also, was it Loren Hall, the Mexican and Lee Oswald that visited Sylvia Odio?

Antti Hynonen

[Ryan Crowe]

From my exp in shooting I can say that firing from a elevated position is very difficult and takes alot of training,let alone shooting at a target that is moving away from your position which makes it even harder.

Ryan,

A few things I can add here -

The shots from the alledged sniper's nest were not only difficult because the target was moving away but add the difficulty of the target also moving down an incline (towards the underpass) and following the curvature of the road (left to right I believe). As an example compare the difficulty of shooting skeet to shooting trap.

The MC was a terrible choice as a sniper weapon because it is not a "high powered rifle", it's a carbine. Carbine's such as the M1 are great for close quarters fighting because they have shorter barrels and are lighter than rifles. They are lousy sniper weapons. If I had been a shooter from a elevated position and I was serious about my business I'd probably have taken the "tried and true" weapon that had been the choice of snipers through the three previous major conflicts, the Springfield '03.

I'm also highly suspicious of the fact that we're supposed to believe that Oswald, despite his military training, would have attempted his "mission" with four rounds in a clip which holds six rounds.

I'll try and find the WC testimony - there's a passage with one of the FBI agents describing the problem that they had with the MC scope. It wasn't zeroed. They listed the ranges that they tested it at and the amount of "kentucky windage" needed to hit a bull. Funny thing was that they fudged some of the numbers and if you know where to look it'll jump right out at you. I'll scare it up.

Keep up the good work.

Chris

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Hi Chris,

You said....

The shots from the alledged sniper's nest were not only difficult because the target was moving away but add the difficulty of the target also moving down an incline (towards the underpass) and following the curvature of the road (left to right I believe). As an example compare the difficulty of shooting skeet to shooting trap.

Exactly correct, what alot of folks do not realize is that the FOV is very small through ones scope at this distance, with the limo moving the way it was, changing speeds and after each shot most folks do not realize what it takes to find ones LOS/target after each shot,let alone get back into position.The MC was pure Garbage,and what I always hear in the shooting community is a 12 dollar rifle for a million dollar job.

As for the M1 Carbine, you are correct this is a lousy long rage rifle and only good for CQB, plus its cartridge is nothing more then a beef up .38

The M1 Garand 30-06 is a different beast on its own, a rifle I am very familiar with, very accurate in the right hands.This rifle was also used in WW2, Korea and Vietnam as a Sniper rifle.

The only problem I have with the Garand being used is its empties being ejected,but its quick break down is something that is valuable in a situation like this, which only takes a quick pull of the trigger housing and its in two half pieces.

The only thing that was a set back for the Garand was its optics and there location,If you were not right handed well then forget it But great out to 600 meters with or without optics, plus you get quick follow ups.

If I was in the 6th floor that day,I would have been a on looker as that position is flat out horrible.Also with the range within the Grassy Knoll and the limo I would not even use a scope as it would be useless and make things even more difficult.

The 03 is a great and very accurate rifle that is definetly tried and true,and not a bad choice by anymeans even today, I would never feel "under accurate" with the 03.

Excellent post Chris,and thanks for adding your comments.I myself sometimes find it hard to describe to non shooters the assassination scenerio, im more of a hands on type of shooter,Glad your here.

Ryan

[Ryan Crowe]

Hi Antti,

I beieve Hemming said that Hall had taken his rifle (the Johnson) and was headed to Dallas.James Richards would be the guy to answer this question for ya, Here is a little history on the Johnson rifle.

The US Army tested the Johnson Rifle exhaustively in 1938 at Fort Benning, comparing it's functions with early "Gas trap" M1 rifles. These tests found a few weaknesses to the overall Johnson design but the army was impressed by the concept, inviting Mel. Johnson to re-submit the design for further testing at a later date . With the failure of the design to win acceptance with the US Army and later the Marine Corps., Johnson successfully sold the rifle, now the M1941, to the Dutch for use in the Far East colonies with their Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch leger (KNIL - The Netherlands East Indies Defence Force) troops who were commanded from the Island of Java, in what is now Indonisia. The rifles and machine guns that were delivered saw extensive use against the Japanese before the Dutch colonies were overrun. The undelivered rifles and machine guns intended for KNIL use were now impounded at Cranston.

This large consignment of semi-automatic rifles and selective fire machine guns caught the eye of the USMC and a quantity of each were obtained from the embargoed stocks.These weapons were used to equip the fledgeling USMC paramarine units.

The 1st Parachute Battalion USMC, was issued the Johnson 41 LMG at the following levels- "Gun, machine, .30-caliber, Johnson, light" -

HQ Company ...........................................6 guns

Parachute Companies ..............................81 guns

The level of issue of Johnson rifles is not known from the data that details the LMG issue scale.

This Battalion was also issued with 565 " Gun,submachine, .45 caliber, w/folding stock" (presumably Reising Model 55's).

The USMC used these rifles and LMG's in their Solomon Islands campaign and for a short time afterwards until M1 rifles were obtained in numbers. An Interesting fact can be found in the 1943 edition of "The Blue Jackets Guide" were in the naval weapons section there is a picture and description of the Model 41 Johnson rifle . The text also states quite plainly that the M1 rifle was not a standard naval weapon, which adds another quirk to the Johnson story.

But here is whats the most interesting when it comes to the Johnson rifle,

During the 1960's invasion of Cuba the CIA armed the cuban exiles who took part in the "Bay of Pigs invasion" with large quantities of both Johnson 41 rifles and '41 LMG's. It is hoped that a still photo can be obtained of this, as movie footage exists showing these irregular troops with the weapons has been seen by a number of people who have told me of this fact.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Ryan Crowe

[Lee Forman]

Hello Ryan!

As a subject matter expert, I'm wondering if you might be willing to provide me with some additional clarification on the following:

1. Would a Remington Firebolt XP100 [obvious Files reference] loaded with a dumdum, containing a payload of Mercury have been able to create the size and color of the smoke witnessed on the knoll?

2. What's your opinion on the smoke that was seen on the knoll? Was it more likely to have come from a firecracker or a weapon? I found it interesting to note that Oliver Stone was forced to make use of bellows to mimic the detail of the smoke for his film, JFK. Apparently he wasn't able to find a weapon to reproduce the effect.

2.a. From the House Committee. Does this in any way provide sufficient cause for the smoke, color and size, seen on the knoll?

138. Based on the statements of these witnesses, if the smoke they reported was in fact the result of gunfire, it would have originated in the area of the top of the grassy knoll. There is no way of determining what type of ammunition was used in that "gunfire" so that is can be stated conclusively whether the smoke seen by the witnesses is consistent with smoke produced by the type of ammunition used in any gunfire from the knoll. Nevertheless, a firearms expert engaged by the committee explained that irrespective of the exact type of ammunition used, it would be possible for witnesses to have seen smoke if a gun had been fired from that arena. According to the expert, both "smokeless" and smoke-producing ammunition may leave a trace of smoke that would be visible to the eye in sunlight.(371) That is because even with smokeless ammunition, when the weapon was fired, nitrocellulose bases in the powder which are impregnated with nitroglycerin may give off smoke, albeit less smoke than black or smoke-producing ammunition.(372) In addition, residue remaining in the weapon from previous firings, as well as cleaning solution which might have been used on the weapon, could cause even more smoke to be discharged in subsequent firings of the weapon.(373)

3. Hemming says on AJ Weberman's website that sabots were deployed in the action. An underpowered sabot was deployed in the shots from the TSBD, and the shoulder wound was a plant, to tie back the Mannlicher Carcano. Isn't this theoretically possible? I've modified Hemming's expletives for Andy

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule17.htm

This was the meat shot. This was for 'cking planting evidence. This wasn't for killing anybody. If it kills him, that's good too. It has the force to penetrate. If you're dumpin' the blame, the set up weapon has to be fired into a soft area of the target. You don't want this round deforming, because it has to be identified later on by the lands and grooves on it. This is not a killing round. This one went in two and a half inches. We figured that CPR popped the 'cker out. This was the magic bullet. It's the closest shot. You can't miss. It's from 60 feet away. That's what pistol people shoot at. He's up six floors and 20 feet across the street. With a shoulder stock and a scope you ain't gonna miss with a sabot round. A sabot round is a plastic and metal sleeve that holds a smaller round. The sabot round they used was copper. Remember somebody talking about something making marks on the sidewalk? That's the sleeve. The jacket around the sabot round that breaks. It's a small piece, it can't be identified. It's got a wax filler. As that hot powder is burning, those gases are pushing it out. As soon as it leaves the muzzle the wax melts in a sabot round jacket that has already started to separate. The whole idea is, they 'cked up totally, it became a pristine round because it was so underpowered. That's why I figure it was a short barreled sabot round. If they fired it out of a Carcano, they'd have been nothing left of the slug, except cadaver samples, and you can't see any rifling at all. What sends the flag up is the pristine round that tells the whole 'cking story of professionalism. The use of silenced weapons and sabot rounds."

4. What type of damage would result from a .45 revolver being fired at a human head from a distance of say 20 feet? An entry wound the size of a peach? Would the slug most likely exit on the other side of the head?

[Ryan Crowe]

Hi Lee,

1) The smoke IMHO came from a well oiled barrel, when ones cleans a rifle/barrel usually one runs a oiled patch threw the bore to keep rust away,this is something one forgets about from time to time and when fired can create a good amount of smoke.The Remington Fireball would be the LAST weapon I would want to use in a situation like that.

2)Same answer as above,IMHO why waste the noise of a fire cracker when one could be shooting.

3)Yes this is possible but IMHO The MC was used,but only to link that rifle back to Oswald.One has to read between the lines when listening to Hemming: )IMHO the shots that the WC said that came from the 6th floor is IMHO impossible,sabot or no sabot.This scenerio was tested by the best and could not be duplicated.

4)I will assume you are speaking of a 1911 .45acp? No this wouldnt make a entrance the size of a peach,the 1911 fires a 230 grain fmj around 850-900 fps making it a slow and heavy round, plenty of knock down power with a well placed shot but not with a entrance of a peach,about a little over the size of the round with a exit the size of maybe a ping pong ball maybe smaller.

Yes it would exit the back of the head, the skull is fragile and will explode when hit with a fast moving projectile as there is more kinetic energy/rifle round.

Hope that may answer your questions Lee, I try to make my answers more simple and not get into all of the ballistic terms as it can create confusion and thats something we dont need any more of

Edited July 16, 2004 by Ryan Crowe

[Chris Newton]

Hemming says on AJ Weberman's website that sabots were deployed in the action.  An underpowered sabot was deployed in the shots from the TSBD, and the shoulder wound was a plant, to tie back the Mannlicher Carcano.  Isn't this theoretically possible?  I've modified Hemming's expletives for Andy

Lee: This is an interesting hypothesis. A sabot (IMHO) would more than likely be fired from a shotgun. This would give some credence to Arnold's statement that the "thing" the cop was waving at him had a barrel "as big around as this". It would also possibly link the the cop bringing up the rear in the tramp photos to badgeman, as some have suggested. Possibly the same cop? maybe. "Double-Odd-Buck" would not have been the ammo of choice if badgeman was really a shooter- something a little more solid would have been required.

A shotgun might also account for the smoke - especially a well cleaned and oiled one (nod and wink to Ryan Crowe who is right on the money here).

If you doubt me then google SHOTGUN +SABOT. 4,000 returns?

[GREENSTONE]

Ryan: Thank you for your informative postings. Could I ask you a few questions about guns and the events in Dealey Plaza. From the evidence (wounds, photographs, audio tapes, etc.) available:

(1) How many shots were fired?

(2) Where do you think the gunmen were positioned?

(3) Is it possible that the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano was one of the weapons used?

(4) Is it possible that one gunman in the Texas Book Depository using another type of rifle could have fired the shots in the allocated time?

(5) If a lone gunman had been in the Texas Book Depository would he not have started firing when JFK’s car was in Houston Street rather than wait until he reached Elm Street.

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Hello Mr Simkin,

I will try and answer your questions the best I can.

1)How many shots were fired?

This is difficult to say as there are so many reports of witnesses saying 3-4-5 shots were heard that day.

The one shot I cannot figure out is the back shot as it was stated as a shallow wound which to me is mind blowing and I have been discussing this with other shooters and its something we are trying to figure out.

If we take the back wound, throat wound,head wound and Connally's wounds as seperate we have atleast 4 shots fired,but if im not mistaken there were reports of witnesses seeing rounds hit behind the limo, I believe 2 rounds, one being on the street and one being in the grass which gives us six rounds fired not to mention Tague.

This is probably the most difficult questions to answer as I would have to have been there to give a somewhat accurate answer on how many shots I thought were fired.

2)Where do you think the gunman were positioned?

IMHO We have gunmen positioned on the 6th floor as stated by witnesses,how many I dont think we can really ever get a answer for that, But if I was up there I would have myself and a spotter calling shots as shots are being fired.

Grassy knoll, again I would put 2 men there, one being a shooter and the other a spotter and he would also be used to hide/dispose of the rifle for the shooter/spotter team to get away.The man with the SS ID was seen behind the picket fence,IMHO he was there to stall anyone who was there first on the scene,I dont believe he was a spotter or shooter.

South knoll, Again spotter and shooter team,I will have to look at the films more but this might be where the fatal head shot came from.Now I know some are saying WHAT lol but this position gives us the best angle for the fatal head shot to match up with the head wound. It was a somewhat flat trajectory that caused that head wound and where we have the Grassy knoll shooter he is somewhat elevated and the angles do not match up.Kennedy would have to be looking somewhat towards the Grassy knoll for the head wound to match up with the Grassy knoll position,the only other place I could see that shot coming from is further down the fence line closer to the over pass,But my guess is still the south knoll.

3) Is it possilble for the MC was one of the weapons?

Sure,I believe that rifle was used on the 6th floor,if it scores a hit thats great but if it doesnt it is still going to be the murder weapon,IMHO Its main use was to tie that weapon into that location to Oswald period.

4)Is it possible that one gunman in the Texas Book Depository using another type of rifle could have fired the shots in the allocated time?

Im guessing you are asking if a shooter using another type of rifle could score those hits the the WC said the MC did? My answer to that would be no,because the single bullet theory is garbage,now could another type of rifle in the hands of a GREAT shooter like Hathcock himself be able to do it, maybe but IMHO that location (6th floor) is a BAD location for a right handed shooter to get maximum accuracy.What I stated above about one looseing his LOS after a round is fired is very true,when you add high stress fire to that mix and such a small FOV it makes it even harder.

5) If a lone gunman had been in the Texas Book Depository would he not have started firing when JFK’s car was in Houston Street rather than wait until he reached Elm Street.

No doubt about it, a good shooter would have taken that shot as it was a easier shot to lead as he is coming to you,not moving away which is damn difficult to lead.

The only reason to fire when they did that day was to get into a triangle cross fire

With the 6th floor shooter being the signal shot (first shot)this would draw ones attention away from the other shooters who would IMHO be shooting in what I call a rythem,where shooters shoot almost together,also called canyon shooting.

This makes it very difficult to locate where rounds are being fired.

This is what I got from witnesses saying they heard 2 very close shots being fired.

If I have confused anyone I am sorry but im doing this with no sleep last night.....Food Poisoning does not do a body good LOL.

If anyone doesnt understand I will re answer question when im feeling a little better.

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[Ryan Crowe]

Hi Chris,

I think what Lee was asking about is the Sabot round that is when someone inserts a plastic collar into a larger caliber casing in order to fire a smaller caliber bullet.

The problem with these rounds is there are not stable and doesnt get the spin from the rifling so its accuarcy suffers greatly.

I believe there was a spent 7.62 casing with a sabot collar on it found on a roof of a Daley Plaza building in the 70's, Not sure of a exact date.

Looks like me and you are on the same page here, from the photos that show the smoke it looks like someone had there mind else where and forgot to run some clean patches to remove the oil from there barrel.