Maurice Bishop = David Atlee Phillips

[William Kelly]

Two weeks ago I was honored to conduct an interview with Antonio Veciana. Although he still denies it for the record, there is no doubt left that David Atlee Phillips was his CIA controller. Veciana had a nice way of confirming it without confirming it. You will know what I mean once you see the interview.

Wim

Mark,

Kudos. Will you publish the interview somewhere that we can see it? I am amazed that Veciana is still living.

(Given the attempts on his life, he is likely amazed as well). He must be quite elderly by now.

Dawn

Dawn, It's Wim posting under Mark's name, cause I lost my password and John Simkin does not react thusfar to my requests to get me a new one. Anyway, Veciana is still very much alive with an electic energy and James is not out of jail but remains very much incarcarcerated. I will publish the interview when I feel like it, but I will give you some gems here:

It was in Spanish , and I do not have the tape yet, let alone the transcription. But I will give you the gist of how he answered some questions, as best as I recall.

One question I asked is: So if Bishop was Phillips, the confirmation for that would not come from you?

He said: No because the CIA knows, and the confirmation should come from them. Also he was very interested in the cancer project that Lee Oswald, Ferrie and Judyth Baker worked on. I don't know why, maybe because his wife died from cancer. So I gave him the DVD of my interview with Judyth, which apparently he watched the same night. Because the next day in the interview he quotes the DVD. He said that Lee told his girl friend (su amante) never to forget the name David Atlee Phillips, in case he would not survive. So in effect Veciana uses other people's testimony to stress that Bishop = Phillips = Oswald's CIA controller.

I started the whole issue with the question: Tony, is there any chance that in your lifetime you will change your statement that David Atlee Phillips was not Maurice Bishop? He said no, because he "made a promise". Then he said something that Tony Jr translated as maybe he would write something up for after his death.

Likewise, he also quoted a statement of Fonzi, that when David Atllee Phillips died that Maurice Bishop died too. So I asked him if he found that a good statement, and he said yes. He added that everyone around Phillips recognized the sketch as being him, including his family, his brother and niece. And he described how extremely nervous Phillips was when Veciana and he met at the luncheon.

Anyway, body and and facial language is also important.

I had a little debate with my producer who handled the camera, about whether this was a confirmation. In Veciana's presence he said "Yes, he confirmed it, he just did." And Veciana just watched and didn't make a comment and smiled. I think his loosening up also has to do with age, and that he liked me.

Wim

Wim pollutes the mind and memory of another important wintess with the JBDVD cancer virus.

BK

[William Kelly]

Wim: ".......Also he was very interested in the cancer project that Lee Oswald, Ferrie and Judyth Baker worked on. I don't know why, maybe because his wife died from cancer. So I gave him the DVD of my interview with Judyth, which apparently he watched the same night. Because the next day in the interview he quotes the DVD. He said that Lee told his girl friend (su amante) never to forget the name David Atlee Phillips, in case he would not survive. So in effect Veciana uses other people's testimony to stress that Bishop = Phillips = Oswald's CIA controller...."

BK: "Wim pollutes the mind and memory of another important wintess with the JBDVD cancer virus."

[Mark Johansson]

Wim, can you tell us if Veciana was paid for the interview? I fully believe that Phillips was Bishop. But the thought occurs that Veciana is still denying that Phillips was Bishop in hopes he can stretch this out awhile.

Another thought, one from a few years back... I've always wondered if the Knight/Bishop angle was a reference to J.C. King, the head of the CIA's Western Hemisphere division. King was, I believe, the original impetus behind both the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala and the assassination plots on Castro. He was heavily connected to men like Pawley.

No, Veciana was not paid a dime. He was joking that I should give him one dollar for the release. Then Tony Jr. said he wanted a euro, cause he had never seen one. So I gave him a euro, but he pushed back my hand.

Wim

[Mark Johansson]

Wim: ".......Also he was very interested in the cancer project that Lee Oswald, Ferrie and Judyth Baker worked on. I don't know why, maybe because his wife died from cancer. So I gave him the DVD of my interview with Judyth, which apparently he watched the same night. Because the next day in the interview he quotes the DVD. He said that Lee told his girl friend (su amante) never to forget the name David Atlee Phillips, in case he would not survive. So in effect Veciana uses other people's testimony to stress that Bishop = Phillips = Oswald's CIA controller...."

BK: "Wim pollutes the mind and memory of another important wintess with the JBDVD cancer virus."

Bill, how long have you been talking about this grand jury? 5 years, 10 years? Should I have the faith you're not kidding yourself, instead believe you're going to pull it off and thus not seek any evidence myself? Or should I wait untill every witness is gone?

By the way, you can hardly "pollute" a witness with anything that 's publicly available. And even if I would have, I am glad I did, when he used it to stress once again that Bishop was David Atlee Phillips.

Maybe he can make you posthumely understand what the likelyhood of a grand jury will be. I made the text bold for you:

From: http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0019b.html

It was now obvious to Phillips that I wanted to bring him and Veciana together. "Well, as you know," I said, turning back to Phillips, "I'm with Senator Schweiker and I thought you might be able to help us with what we've been working on."

"What about." asked Phillips.

"The Kennedy assassination," I said, a bit surprised at the question. Phillips smiled. "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress."

Veciana suddenly appeared at our side with Sarah Lewis directly behind him. "This in Mr. Veciana," I said again. Veciana immediately asked Phillips in Spanish if he had been in Havana in 1960. Phillips answered in Spanish, yes, he was. Did he know Julio Lobo? Veciana asked. Phillips said, yes, he remembered the name. Did he know Rufo Lopez-Fresquet? Phillips said yes, then quickly asked Veciana, "What was your name again?"

"Antonio Veciana."

"Veciana?" Phillips repeated.

"Don't you know my name?"

Phillips shook his head slowly and, with apparent thoughtfulness, said, "No..." Then he turned to me and asked, in English, "Is he with Schweiker's staff?" Phillips now appeared quite nervous.

"No," I said. "Mr. Veciana has been helping us with our investigation."

"What investigation?"

I found it strange that he didn't quite understand. "The Kennedy assassination," I said again. "That's why I thought if we could talk, I mean nothing official, just off the record if you prefer, you could be of some help. I thought...."

He interrupted me with a forced smile: "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress." His hands were visibly shaking. Unintentionally, with the push of the crowd behind me, I had forced him up against the wall and it suddenly struck me that we had inadvertently cornered him. "Well, there's an area I thought you might help us with..." I began, thinking I could push a little.

His smile was frozen. "I told you, I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress," he repeated. Then, suddenly, he turned testy. "I'm sorry," he said, moving toward an opening, "you've caught me at a very inopportune moment. As you can see, this is all very hectic here and I'm quite busy, so if you'll excuse me...." He kept the smile on his face but I was surprised at how clearly and visibly shaken he appeared.

"No," I said, "I said, "I didn't mean I wanted to talk with you now, but perhaps if I can give you a call...."

This time the smile was gone and with a blatant sigh of exasperation he repeated again, now slowly and in mock rate. "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress. Now, if you'll excuse me..." he pushed his way between us. I retreated, thanked him for having us, told him I enjoyed the lunch and the guest speaker. He smiled again nervously, said we been most welcome and quickly moved away.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Mark Johansson

[William Kelly]

Wim: ".......Also he was very interested in the cancer project that Lee Oswald, Ferrie and Judyth Baker worked on. I don't know why, maybe because his wife died from cancer. So I gave him the DVD of my interview with Judyth, which apparently he watched the same night. Because the next day in the interview he quotes the DVD. He said that Lee told his girl friend (su amante) never to forget the name David Atlee Phillips, in case he would not survive. So in effect Veciana uses other people's testimony to stress that Bishop = Phillips = Oswald's CIA controller...."

BK: "Wim pollutes the mind and memory of another important wintess with the JBDVD cancer virus."

Bill, how long have you been talking about this grand jury? 5 years, 10 years? Should I have the faith you're not kidding yourself, instead believe you're going to pull it off and thus not seek any evidence myself? Or should I wait untill every witness is gone?

By the way, you can hardly "pollute" a witness with anything that 's publicly available. And even if I would have, I am glad I did, when he used it to stress once again that Bishop was David Atlee Phillips.

THERE ISN'T ANYTHING THAT VECIANA COULD POSSIBLY TELL YOU THAT HE HASN'T ALREADY TOLD FONZI, SCHWEIKER, HSCA, DICK RUSSELL AND TONY SUMMERS.

EVEN THOUGH JUDYTH BAKER'S STORY IS PUBLICLY AVALIABLE, HE WASN'T AWARE OF HOW BOGUS HER STORY IS AND NOW, IF HE USES IT, HOW IT CAN AND WILL BE USED TO DISCREDIT HIS STORY.

HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS KEEP ALL WITNESSES APART AND NEVER MIX THEIR STORIES, OR INFORM THEM OF WHAT OTHER WITNESSES HAVE SAID.

YOU HAVE VIOLATED THAT BASIC CODE.

- CONGRESS IS THE NEXT STEP - CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT HEARINGS ON JFK ACT AND THEN A GRAND JURY. ONE WILL FOLLOW THE OTHER. I DON'T SET THE TIME AND I DON'T SET THE PROCEDURE.

IT WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT HAPPENS.

AND EVERYTHING YOU QUOTED WAS FROM DECADES OLD PREVIOUSLY AVAILABLE STUFF AND NOT FROM YOUR RECENTLY COMPETED INTERVIEW - RIGHT?

FROM NOW ON VECIANA'S STORY WILL BE DEVIDED INTO BEFORE HE TALKED TO WIM AND AFTER HE TALKED TO WIM AND THE FORMER WILL BE CONSIDERED VIABLE.

BILL KELLY

Maybe he can make you posthumely understand what the likelyhood of a grand jury will be. I made the text bold for you:

From: http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0019b.html

It was now obvious to Phillips that I wanted to bring him and Veciana together. "Well, as you know," I said, turning back to Phillips, "I'm with Senator Schweiker and I thought you might be able to help us with what we've been working on."

"What about." asked Phillips.

"The Kennedy assassination," I said, a bit surprised at the question. Phillips smiled. "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress."

Veciana suddenly appeared at our side with Sarah Lewis directly behind him. "This in Mr. Veciana," I said again. Veciana immediately asked Phillips in Spanish if he had been in Havana in 1960. Phillips answered in Spanish, yes, he was. Did he know Julio Lobo? Veciana asked. Phillips said, yes, he remembered the name. Did he know Rufo Lopez-Fresquet? Phillips said yes, then quickly asked Veciana, "What was your name again?"

"Antonio Veciana."

"Veciana?" Phillips repeated.

"Don't you know my name?"

Phillips shook his head slowly and, with apparent thoughtfulness, said, "No..." Then he turned to me and asked, in English, "Is he with Schweiker's staff?" Phillips now appeared quite nervous.

"No," I said. "Mr. Veciana has been helping us with our investigation."

"What investigation?"

I found it strange that he didn't quite understand. "The Kennedy assassination," I said again. "That's why I thought if we could talk, I mean nothing official, just off the record if you prefer, you could be of some help. I thought...."

He interrupted me with a forced smile: "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress." His hands were visibly shaking. Unintentionally, with the push of the crowd behind me, I had forced him up against the wall and it suddenly struck me that we had inadvertently cornered him. "Well, there's an area I thought you might help us with..." I began, thinking I could push a little.

His smile was frozen. "I told you, I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress," he repeated. Then, suddenly, he turned testy. "I'm sorry," he said, moving toward an opening, "you've caught me at a very inopportune moment. As you can see, this is all very hectic here and I'm quite busy, so if you'll excuse me...." He kept the smile on his face but I was surprised at how clearly and visibly shaken he appeared.

"No," I said, "I said, "I didn't mean I wanted to talk with you now, but perhaps if I can give you a call...."

This time the smile was gone and with a blatant sigh of exasperation he repeated again, now slowly and in mock rate. "I'll be glad to talk with any Congressman, or any representative of Congress...in Congress. Now, if you'll excuse me..." he pushed his way between us. I retreated, thanked him for having us, told him I enjoyed the lunch and the guest speaker. He smiled again nervously, said we been most welcome and quickly moved away.

[Michael Hogan]

HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS KEEP ALL WITNESSES APART AND NEVER MIX THEIR STORIES, OR INFORM THEM OF WHAT OTHER WITNESSES HAVE SAID.

YOU HAVE VIOLATED THAT BASIC CODE.

Gaeton Fonzi seems to have violated part of that code when he brought Phillips and Veciana together. ("It was now obvious to Phillips that I wanted to bring him and Veciana together.")

In Fonzi's manuscript he quoted the incomparable Sylvia Meagher:

Years ago, in reviewing a book about the Warren Commission for a small magazine called Minority of One, critic Sylvia Meagher wrote:

"there are no heroes in this piece, only men who collaborated actively or passively -- wilfully or self-deludedly -- in dirty work that does violence to the elementary concept of justice and affronts normal intelligence."

Sylvia Meagher sure had a way with words. Her book Accessories after the Fact has hundreds of similar gems.

[William Kelly]

HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS KEEP ALL WITNESSES APART AND NEVER MIX THEIR STORIES, OR INFORM THEM OF WHAT OTHER WITNESSES HAVE SAID.

YOU HAVE VIOLATED THAT BASIC CODE.

Gaeton Fonzi seems to have violated part of that code when he brought Phillips and Veciana together. ("It was now obvious to Phillips that I wanted to bring him and Veciana together.")

In Fonzi's manuscript he quoted the incomparable Sylvia Meagher:

Years ago, in reviewing a book about the Warren Commission for a small magazine called Minority of One, critic Sylvia Meagher wrote:

"there are no heroes in this piece, only men who collaborated actively or passively -- wilfully or self-deludedly -- in dirty work that does violence to the elementary concept of justice and affronts normal intelligence."

Sylvia Meagher sure had a way with words. Her book Accessories after the Fact has hundreds of similar gems.

Yes, I understand you Michael, but Fonzi didn't violate that code because DAP was not a witness, but a suspect, and his intent was to bring the witness and suspect together to see the reaction.

Fonzi did violate some journalistic principles however, in not giving DAP a chance to respond to the allegations of Fonzi and Veciana - especially so since both Fonzi and Phillips were both working at Washingtonian Magazine at the time and Fonzi would have had no trouble getting a quote from him.

Phillips however, was eventually questioned/interrogated by Congressional investigators in Congress and they could have filed perjury charges against him.

I don't have any problem with Wim interviewing witnesses, he should conduct himself properly however, and learn the proper procedures, and find some creditble witnesses who have not yet been through the wringer.

And stop slinging the JEBDVD virus all over the place.

Notice he doesn't take issue with me about the Judyth Baker virus and its impact on everything it touches.

BK

[Mark Johansson]

I don't have any problem with Wim interviewing witnesses, he should conduct himself properly however, and learn the proper procedures, and find some creditble witnesses who have not yet been through the wringer.

And stop slinging the JEBDVD virus all over the place.

Notice he doesn't take issue with me about the Judyth Baker virus and its impact on everything it touches.

BK

Ah, Bill, I am glad you don't have any problem with my pursuit of witnesses before we get your grand jury together. Hopefully we will be able to get Mather on the stand before he's gone too.

I take it that you meant JVBDVD virus, but you better call it the CIA/Ochsner/Sherman/Ferrie virus. Why call it the JVB virus, if she was one of the least pawns?

http://drmarysmonkey.com/index.php

Wim

Edited December 1, 2007 by Mark Johansson

[William Kelly]

I don't have any problem with Wim interviewing witnesses, he should conduct himself properly however, and learn the proper procedures, and find some creditble witnesses who have not yet been through the wringer.

And stop slinging the JEBDVD virus all over the place.

Notice he doesn't take issue with me about the Judyth Baker virus and its impact on everything it touches.

BK

Ah, Bill, I am glad you don't have any problem with my pursuit of witnesses before we get your grand jury together. Hopefully we will be able to get Mather on the stand before he's gone too.

I take it that you meant JVBDVD virus, but you better call it the CIA/Ochsner/Sherman/Ferrie virus. Why call it the JVB virus, if she was one of the least pawns?

http://drmarysmonkey.com/index.php

Wim

Wim, it's not MY grand jury, it's the venue for the presentation of evidence in a homicide as established by the Constitution of the United States, and it is where justice must begin, if ever. I'm just showing people the road map on how to get there.

Mather and Meyers are peanuts compared to other witnesses that have been identified, and are just waiting for a place to give their story. It's just a shame that instead of being properly interviewed, witnesses are being improperly questioned by Oliver and Hardy.

Whatever the origin of the JBDVD virus, It's purpose is to spread confusion, mistrust and pollute otherwise legitimate witnesses, and it is contageous.

BK

[Michael Crane]

Bishop = Phillips IMO

I cant remember where I read it but,it was somewhere in the book "Someone would have talked" that persuaded me to come to this opinion.

Just my .02

[Mark Johansson]

Justice will never be done in this case. Too late for that anyway. Therefore I concentrate on truth, that's where we differ in approach . the hell with justice. Stop kidding yourself!

Whatever the origin of the JBDVD virus, It's purpose is to spread confusion, mistrust and pollute otherwise legitimate witnesses, and it is contageous.

Sure! Are you Laurel or Hardy?

Wim

[William Kelly]

Justice will never be done in this case. Too late for that anyway. Therefore I concentrate on truth, that's where we differ in approach . the hell with justice. Stop kidding yourself!

Whatever the origin of the JBDVD virus, It's purpose is to spread confusion, mistrust and pollute otherwise legitimate witnesses, and it is contageous.

Sure! Are you Laurel or Hardy?

Wim

Wim, I don't have any illusions that justice can ever be done, but after years of doing this, it becomes apparent that Fletcher Prouty was right, and there's no sense doing all the research if you don't have a place to take it - a legal venue for the presentation of the evidence. The Grand Jury is that venue in the US legal system.

In addition, regardless of what you believe about the assassination, you should want all the recrords released and recognize that the next big step necessary to move this case forward is to obtain additional sworn witness testimony under oath.

That can happen at a Congressional hearing, a grand jury, or a civil case, such as a libel suit.

Then witnesses can be subpoened and required to testify under oath about what they know.

THAT is what will advance the TRUTH in the assassination of President Kennedy.

As for Laurel and Hardy interviews with assassination witnesses, I will address that later, but it is an important issue that's seldom addressed.

BK

[Mark Johansson]

Justice will never be done in this case. Too late for that anyway. Therefore I concentrate on truth, that's where we differ in approach . the hell with justice. Stop kidding yourself!

Whatever the origin of the JBDVD virus, It's purpose is to spread confusion, mistrust and pollute otherwise legitimate witnesses, and it is contageous.

Sure! Are you Laurel or Hardy?

Wim

Wim, I don't have any illusions that justice can ever be done, but after years of doing this, it becomes apparent that Fletcher Prouty was right, and there's no sense doing all the research if you don't have a place to take it - a legal venue for the presentation of the evidence. The Grand Jury is that venue in the US legal system.

In addition, regardless of what you believe about the assassination, you should want all the recrords released and recognize that the next big step necessary to move this case forward is to obtain additional sworn witness testimony under oath.

That can happen at a Congressional hearing, a grand jury, or a civil case, such as a libel suit.

Then witnesses can be subpoened and required to testify under oath about what they know.

THAT is what will advance the TRUTH in the assassination of President Kennedy.

As for Laurel and Hardy interviews with assassination witnesses, I will address that later, but it is an important issue that's seldom addressed.

BK

Bill, the place to take it is the American public. Now, I realise that I don't control the channels to bring it to them, but hey, maybe some day the wall breaks and the flood come down

Then you will also have the outcry for your grand jury, if it's not too late then.

Wim

[William Kelly]

Michael,

I think everyone has pretty much agreed that David Atlee Phillips was the "Maurice Bishop" that Veciana knew, for a variety of reasons.

There is the probability that other intelligence officers of a similar rank also used the alias.

His identification of Oswald as being in Dallas in August of 1963 when Oswald was suppose to be in New Orleans, leads one to believe that Oswald did indeed "go underground," and moved about without creating records and probably on assignment from yet to be identified domestic intelligence network. If you accept this meeting as true then this network was most definately associated with Phillips' operations, something to do with the Mexico City stuff.

If you accept the fact that DAP met with LHO and AV in Dallas at that time, then their meeting place - a large office building/hotel down Deep Elm, on the other side of Dallas from Dealey Plaza, would lead one to identify the tennants of that office building.

It would also be interesting if the hotel coffee shop of this building is the same coffee shop visited by Jack Ruby and Larry Crafard after midnight on the evening of the assassination, having just taken photos of the "Imeach Earl Warren" billboard, which Ruby somehow thought related to the assassination. Ruby knew the night manager of the coffee shop and often went there.

For someone who believes that Veciana met with Maurice Bishop and Lee Harvey Oswald, placing them all together at one place at one time, it would be interesting to find out more about the Pan Am Bank of Miami, where Veciana said he swore allegiance to USA and was given trainining in psychological warfare techniques, codes, ciphers and tradecraft. This is the same bank Robert McKowen said was on the wrappers of the cash he received for arms he sold to Castro, and where Jack Ruby delivered cash at the behest of the Fox Brothers Havana casino owners.

Is there anything about the place Vechiana met MB and LHO, as I suspect?

Is there anything to the Pan Am Bank of Miami that means anything and leads anywhere?

And then of course, we follow DAP back to JMWAVE and Mexico City, and follow the paperwork he's left behind for us to read, however belatedly.

Now there's some back alleys worth visiting.

Bill Kelly

Edited December 5, 2007 by William Kelly

[Jack White]

Bill, as I recall the all night coffee shop visited by Ruby was

the Lucas B&B Cafe on Oak Lawn.

Jack