Michael Paine

[David G. Healy]

very informative... thanks Paul Trejo!

[Vitali Zhuk]

(11) You say, Vitali, that you also don't suspect Ruth Paine much, yet you now have a question about Wesley Frazier, because you must have an explanation for Oswald getting hired at the TSBD. It's a good question.

(*) I answer with my theory. WALKER was the one who got Oswald that job at the TSBD, and he did this through his Dallas organization known as the "Friends of Walker."

The "Friends of Walker" were a tight-knit group of rightist radicals who were always members of the John Birch Society in Dallas. They also subscribed to WALKER's Newsletter, and they also received personal information from WALKER, as needed.

As I recall, the sister of Wesley Frazier was the one who told Ruth Paine about the opening at the TSBD; and IMHO she got this information from Edwin WALKER. Roy Truly, the hiring manager at TSBD, was also member of the "Friends of Walker" IMHO, and quickly hired Oswald at the request of Edwin Walker.

So, yes, while Ruth Paine also made a telephone call to help coordinate the hiring of Oswald at the TSBD, she had no idea that WALKER was involved in this choice -- because, for one thing, she hated WALKER's guts.

Paul, I really appreciate your discussion. Trying to concentrate near the topic's subject I have one argument for (11).

11. According to testimony of Ruth Paine the idea of telephone call (to coordinate the hiring of Oswald at the TSBD) was invented by Marina Oswald. It's a very important moment and it's needed to be discussed. For the first sight it seems to be occasional. Marina said: "I did help him find a job, because I was visiting Mrs. Paine's neighbors."

Paul, where is info about Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts were "Friends of Walker"? Or it's your suggestion?

Edited July 1, 2015 by Vitali Zhuk

[David Andrews]

Why were the Oswalds part of the Paine household if at least one of the Paines were not involved in the assassination plot? What other use did the Paines have for Marina or Lee?

Well, David, IMHO the participation of the Paine's in Oswald's life was entirely conditioned by George De Mohrenschildt. This had nothing to do with the murder of JFK, and everything to do with Oswald's shooting at Ex-General Walker.

Neither Michael nor Ruth Paine played any role in the JFK murder -- except they that they helped to rattle the "wasp nest" that was Ex-General Edwin Walker in Dallas. By shocking Edwin Walker into action to murder JFK, the Paine's *accidentally* and *indirectly* played a role in the JFK murder.

I believe they know that, too. I believe that to this very day the Paine's guilt never leaves their consciousness for one single minute. What a burden to bear.

I only wish they would step up and CONFESS EVERYTHING THEY KNOW ABOUT EDWIN WALKER before they leave this dimension.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Given the circumstances of the Paines' marriage, and their different involvement with US intelligence agencies. it just may be that one Paine was more culpable in the assassination than the other, and the less culpable one may not have understood this until after Kennedy was dead.

[Bruce Fernandez]

LBJ said his report was "four inches thick." That's twice the size of the 2" thick WC Summary, which never references #11130, so isn't bound by that Executive Order.

Where is that report today?

[Paul Trejo]

QUOTE: "LBJ said his report was "four inches thick." That's twice the size of the 2" thick WC Summary, which never references #11130, so isn't bound by that Executive Order."

Where is that report today?

Well, Bruce, IMHO that report is held by the ARRB, and will be released to the American public on 26 October 2017, pursuant to the JFK Records Act of 1992.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited June 30, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Given the circumstances of the Paines' marriage, and their different involvement with US intelligence agencies. it just may be that one Paine was more culpable in the assassination than the other, and the less culpable one may not have understood this until after Kennedy was dead.

Well, David, while I admit the possibility that you might be correct about this -- I will still reserve judgment about any claims that either Michael or Ruth Paine were employees of the CIA.

They both deny it -- and there is no hard proof for it -- only rumors.

The fact that they were both involved with Lee Harvey Oswald, whom the WC concluded was the "Lone Shooter" at the JFK murder, makes some CTers believe that: (1) since the CIA killed JFK; then (2) the Paine's must have helped the CIA.

I just don't see it. The Paine's helped the Oswalds when they were down and out. That's what Quakers do.

For anybody to blame them for the murder of JFK, just because they were close to Lee and Marina Oswald -- doesn't makes sense to me.

ANYTHING is possible. Until we receive the FULL TRUTH from the US Government on 26 October 2017, we are ALL guessing here. But in the meantime, we have our individual sense of logic and reason. I continue to see the Paines as innocent of the blood of JFK.

Regarding Ex-General Edwin Walker, however, they were both guilty -- equally IMHO -- of encouraging Oswald in that shooting in Dallas on 10 April 1963. They bear that guilt and shame -- and it taints them with a murky suspicion, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited July 1, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, I really appreciate your discussion. Trying to concentrate near the topic's subject I have one argument to (11).

11. According to testimony of Ruth Paine the idea of telephone call was invented by Marina Oswald. It's a very important moment and it's needed to be discussed. For the first sight it's seems to be occasional. Marina said: "I did help him find a job, because I was visiting Mrs. Paine's neighbors."

Paul, where is info about Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts were "Friends of Walker"? Or it's your suggestion?

Well, Vitali, first about (11).

The idea of calling the TSBD to inquire about a job was first spoken by Marina Oswald (according to WC testimony). Yet that surely doesn't mean that the original arrangement for the job opening was made by her.

Ruth Paine told the story of a young mother's group in Dallas, in which Mrs. Randle, the sister of Wesley Frazier, told the group that a job was open at the TSBD.

That is all that Mrs. Randle needed to do. Ruth Paine then translated this to Marina in Russian. When Ruth and Marina arrived back at Ruth's home, Marina was excited enough to press Ruth to make the phone call. Marina was clearly worried that her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, had no job and no money. It was humiliating. So, her urging was normal.

Marina also told the WC, "I did help him find a job..." and that is again a simple repetition of the same story. She put in her two cents in the process. No big deal.

Rather, the main issue is that the TSBD job opening was first articulated by Mrs. Randle.

Finally, Vitali, you ask me about the membership of the "Friends of Walker." It is only my theory, my CT, my suggestion, that Mrs. Randle (and/or her husband) was a member of the "Friends of Walker." This was a private -- nearly secret -- organization that did not publish its membership list -- like the John Birch Society.

My CT holds that Mr. and Mrs. Randle were members of the "Friends of Walker," and also the TSBD supervisor, Roy Truly, was also a member.

I have no proof of this, but I feel certain that when all the Truth is finally known, that the "Friends of Walker" will be found among all the main Dallas players of the JFK murder.

For example -- I can say with certainty (as this is admitted by the WC) that the creators of the "Black Bordered Ad" (WELCOME TO DALLAS, MR. KENNEDY) as well as the famous handbill that circulated around Dallas on 11/22/1963 (as well as on 10/23/1963) namely, "WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK", were both created by the "Friends of Walker."

The principals were Robert Allen Surrey, Larrie Schmidt and Joe Grinnan, who were all closely associated with Walker. They manipulated Bernie Weismann thoroughly during November 1963.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited July 2, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Vitality - Keep giving him rope. The more he fleshes out his theory the more theoretical it becomes.

[Paul Trejo]

There can be no question that the "WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK" handbill, as well as the DMN black-bordered ad, "WELCOME MR. KENNEDY TO DALLAS," were both produced by the "Friends of Walker."

One only needs to read the Warren Report (2" volume) in the section on the Dallas Right-wing, as well as the WC testimony of Robert Allen Surrey and Bernard Weismann to see the truth of this.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Okay,

Here are my Top Ten Questions for Michael Paine.

1) After leaving Harvard, MP transferred to a Quaker college in suburban Philadelphia, when he met Ruth Hyde Paine at a folk dance session. Thanks to MP's mother's husband, Arthur Young, MP gets a job in research and development at Bell Helicopter in Texas. What prompted the move from Philly to Dallas?

2) Michael Paine told the WC that he didn't know Oswald had a rifle, but later he said that he saw the photo of Oswald with rifle in backyard when he picked up Oswald at his apartment to take him home for dinner, early in their association. What's up with that?

3) The German Minox spy camera, previously attributed to belonging to Oswald, has been claimed by MP as his own. If so, then he can explain the photos and why it was entered into evidence.

4) Michael Paine's father was co-founder of the Trotskite Party in USA, yet when Michael met Oswald, who claimed to be not just a communist but a Trotskite, MP didn't bother to impress Oswald with the fact his father was a co-founder of the Trotskite Party USA. Why not?

5) Michael Paine's superior at Bell Helicopter was former Nazi General Dornberger, who worked on the V2 rocket program and became part of Operation Paperclip.

6) MP took Oswald to the American Civil Liberties meeting, along with another friend of MP who left MP and LHO and went to Jack Ruby's Carousel Club afterwards.

7) MP's mother, Ruth Forges Paine Young, was best friends with Mary Bancroft, and accompanied Bancroft on a steamship trip to Europe on which Bancroft met her husband, a Swiss businessman, which put Bancroft in position of becoming one of Alan Dulles' most important agents involved in Operation Sunrise (German Surrender) and an assassination attempt against Hitler. How come it never came out that the mother of the chief patron of the accused assassin was best friends with the mistress and agent of Warren Commissioner Dulles?

8) What was up with the conversation between MP and his wife in which they agree that Oswald wasn't responsible and they knew who was? See:: Coincidence or Conspiracy (Fensterwald, Ewing)

9) What's with the cars? MP is said to have encouraged Oswald to drive, and showed him how he could buy a car for a few hundred bucks and may have even purchased a car for Oswald at the time of the assassination.

10) Then there's the station wagon, the car that transported the alleged assassination weapon from Dallas to New Orleans and back again. Who loaded the car and how come nobody noticed there was a rifle there?

Anyway, there's my top ten questions for Michael Paine. BK

This is still a relevant thread, Bill Kelly, so I'll try to address a few of your original ten questions with my own opinions:

(2) It is one of the most important puzzles in the 21st century analysis of the JFK murder history -- that Michael Paine contradicted himself on this critical topic.

I'm convinced that Michael Paine didn't tell his wife, Ruth, about seeing the Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) Backyard Photograph. They were separated at the time, and aside from their children (and his money) they had very little in common.

However, the fact that Michael Paine knew about the Backyard Photographs on April 2, 1963, suggests that Michael Paine spoke with Lee Harvey Oswald about General Walker, also. This makes Paine a potential part of the plot to assassinate General Walker. I think far more should be done to investigate this.

(4) The reason Michael Paine didn't open up to LHO about his own family, was because Michael was a Harvard man, a brilliant intellectual, and LHO was a phony who tried to read Karl Marx, but couldn't really get past the first page. Michael really looked down on LHO, for good reason.

(7) It's not really relevant that Ruth Paine's mother's friend was once a lover of Allen Dulles in the 1940's. It says utterly nothing about the JFK assassination. George Michael Evica to the contrary.

(8) Ruth Paine herself says that in her post-assassination conversation with Michael, the "one's who really did it" mentioned, were merely the generic "they" who published the Black-bordered Ad (Welcome to Dallas, Mr. Kennedy), and the "Wanted for Treason: JFK" handbills. I find that eminently believable.

(9) Ruth Paine felt sorry for the Oswalds -- especially for Marina whom she liked very much. Lee was a loser who couldn't hold down a steady job, and didn't know how to drive when he was 23 years old. Ruth tried to teach LHO how to drive. It's not surprising that Ruth would beg Michael Paine (who was rich) to help LHO buy his own car, so LHO could hold down a decent job and support his own wife and children.

(10) The reason that nobody noticed a rifle was in the luggage atop Ruth Paine's station wagon in her trip from New Orleans to Irving, Texas in September 1963, was because THERE WAS NO RIFLE THERE.

Instead, the rifle appeared in Ruth Paine's garage only after October 4th, when LHO finally appeared at Ruth's doorstep after his Mexico City episode.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

Mr. Trejo:

So where was the rifle between the time LHO left New Orleans and October 4th? I'm guessing it did NOT go to Mexico with him.

[Paul Trejo]

Mr. Trejo:

So where was the rifle between the time LHO left New Orleans and October 4th? I'm guessing it did NOT go to Mexico with him.

IMHO, Mark, Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) had accomplices in Dallas, in New Orleans and also in Mexico City.

In my reading, the Warren Commission had to pretend that LHO took a bus to Mexico City, in order to support their "Lone Nut" theory of LHO. Mexican officials -- when asked apart from the US Government -- reported that LHO entered and exited Mexico as a passenger in a car.

(No Mexican officials or records have LHO on a bus, and no Mexican witnesses saw LHO on a bus. Only four American tourists claimed to see Oswald, and their testimony is contradictory.)

So, IMHO, just as Oswald rode in a car to and from the Walker shooting in April 1963, so also did Oswald ride in a car from Mexico City in September 1963. His rifle was with him the entire time. That's my reading.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Glenn Nall]

Okay,

Here are my Top Ten Questions for Michael Paine.

1) After leaving Harvard, MP transferred to a Quaker college in suburban Philadelphia, when he met Ruth Hyde Paine at a folk dance session. Thanks to MP's mother's husband, Arthur Young, MP gets a job in research and development at Bell Helicopter in Texas. What prompted the move from Philly to Dallas?

2) Michael Paine told the WC that he didn't know Oswald had a rifle, but later he said that he saw the photo of Oswald with rifle in backyard when he picked up Oswald at his apartment to take him home for dinner, early in their association. What's up with that?

3) The German Minox spy camera, previously attributed to belonging to Oswald, has been claimed by MP as his own. If so, then he can explain the photos and why it was entered into evidence.

4) Michael Paine's father was co-founder of the Trotskite Party in USA, yet when Michael met Oswald, who claimed to be not just a communist but a Trotskite, MP didn't bother to impress Oswald with the fact his father was a co-founder of the Trotskite Party USA. Why not?

5) Michael Paine's superior at Bell Helicopter was former Nazi General Dornberger, who worked on the V2 rocket program and became part of Operation Paperclip.

6) MP took Oswald to the American Civil Liberties meeting, along with another friend of MP who left MP and LHO and went to Jack Ruby's Carousel Club afterwards.

7) MP's mother, Ruth Forges Paine Young, was best friends with Mary Bancroft, and accompanied Bancroft on a steamship trip to Europe on which Bancroft met her husband, a Swiss businessman, which put Bancroft in position of becoming one of Alan Dulles' most important agents involved in Operation Sunrise (German Surrender) and an assassination attempt against Hitler. How come it never came out that the mother of the chief patron of the accused assassin was best friends with the mistress and agent of Warren Commissioner Dulles?

8) What was up with the conversation between MP and his wife in which they agree that Oswald wasn't responsible and they knew who was? See:: Coincidence or Conspiracy (Fensterwald, Ewing)

9) What's with the cars? MP is said to have encouraged Oswald to drive, and showed him how he could buy a car for a few hundred bucks and may have even purchased a car for Oswald at the time of the assassination.

10) Then there's the station wagon, the car that transported the alleged assassination weapon from Dallas to New Orleans and back again. Who loaded the car and how come nobody noticed there was a rifle there?

Anyway, there's my top ten questions for Michael Paine. BK

This is still a relevant thread, Bill Kelly, so I'll try to address a few of your original ten questions with my own opinions:

(2) It is one of the most important puzzles in the 21st century analysis of the JFK murder history -- that Michael Paine contradicted himself on this critical topic.

I'm convinced that Michael Paine didn't tell his wife, Ruth, about seeing the Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) Backyard Photograph. They were separated at the time, and aside from their children (and his money) they had very little in common.

However, the fact that Michael Paine knew about the Backyard Photographs on April 2, 1963, suggests that Michael Paine spoke with Lee Harvey Oswald about General Walker, also. This makes Paine a potential part of the plot to assassinate General Walker. I think far more should be done to investigate this.

(4) The reason Michael Paine didn't open up to LHO about his own family, was because Michael was a Harvard man, a brilliant intellectual, and LHO was a phony who tried to read Karl Marx, but couldn't really get past the first page. Michael really looked down on LHO, for good reason.

(7) It's not really relevant that Ruth Paine's mother's friend was once a lover of Allen Dulles in the 1940's. It says utterly nothing about the JFK assassination. George Michael Evica to the contrary.

(8) Ruth Paine herself says that in her post-assassination conversation with Michael, the "one's who really did it" mentioned, were merely the generic "they" who published the Black-bordered Ad (Welcome to Dallas, Mr. Kennedy), and the "Wanted for Treason: JFK" handbills. I find that eminently believable.

(9) Ruth Paine felt sorry for the Oswalds -- especially for Marina whom she liked very much. Lee was a loser who couldn't hold down a steady job, and didn't know how to drive when he was 23 years old. Ruth tried to teach LHO how to drive. It's not surprising that Ruth would beg Michael Paine (who was rich) to help LHO buy his own car, so LHO could hold down a decent job and support his own wife and children.

(10) The reason that nobody noticed a rifle was in the luggage atop Ruth Paine's station wagon in her trip from New Orleans to Irving, Texas in September 1963, was because THERE WAS NO RIFLE THERE.

Instead, the rifle appeared in Ruth Paine's garage only after October 4th, when LHO finally appeared at Ruth's doorstep after his Mexico City episode.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

PT *** The reason Michael Paine didn't open up to LHO about his own family, was because Michael was a Harvard man, a brilliant intellectual, and LHO was a phony who tried to read Karl Marx, but couldn't really get past the first page. Michael really looked down on LHO, for good reason.

um. where do you get this crap? Has it been so stated that that's why MP didn't open up to LHO? By whom?

Because he was 'a Harvard Man' he's a brilliant intellectual? Hate to break it to you, but one does NOT necessarily follow the other. It might impress you, but I know personally a Harvard man with 2 Master's and he is quite a distance from brilliantly intellectual.

And LHO couldn't get past the first page of Karl Marx? really...?

Being the intrepid, experienced journalist you so obviously are, I can understand the privilege you maintain in not revealing your sources for these most fascinating, and heretofore unrevealed, minutiae. But surely you can cite just ONE source for this drivel... please?

I'll accept the distinct possibility that some of this might be stuff that i've never seen it before, but your skills in gigantic leaps to nowhere really does make me doubt it.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Paul Trejo]

PT *** The reason Michael Paine didn't open up to LHO about his own family, was because Michael was a Harvard man, a brilliant intellectual, and LHO was a phony who tried to read Karl Marx, but couldn't really get past the first page. Michael really looked down on LHO, for good reason.

um. where do you get this crap? Has it been so stated that that's why MP didn't open up to LHO? By whom?

Because he was 'a Harvard Man' he's a brilliant intellectual? Hate to break it to you, but one does NOT necessarily follow the other. It might impress you, but I know personally a Harvard man with 2 Master's and he is quite a distance from brilliantly intellectual.

And LHO couldn't get past the first page of Karl Marx? really...?

Being the intrepid, experienced journalist you so obviously are, I can understand the privilege you maintain in not revealing your sources for these most fascinating, and heretofore unrevealed, minutiae. But surely you can cite just ONE source for this drivel... please?

I'll accept the distinct possibility that some of this might be stuff that i've never seen it before, but your skills in gigantic leaps to nowhere really does make me doubt it.

It's in the Warren Commission testimony of Michael Paine, Glenn. You should read it sometime.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Glenn Nall]

PT *** The reason Michael Paine didn't open up to LHO about his own family, was because Michael was a Harvard man, a brilliant intellectual, and LHO was a phony who tried to read Karl Marx, but couldn't really get past the first page. Michael really looked down on LHO, for good reason.

um. where do you get this crap? Has it been so stated that that's why MP didn't open up to LHO? By whom?

Because he was 'a Harvard Man' he's a brilliant intellectual? Hate to break it to you, but one does NOT necessarily follow the other. It might impress you, but I know personally a Harvard man with 2 Master's and he is quite a distance from brilliantly intellectual.

And LHO couldn't get past the first page of Karl Marx? really...?

Being the intrepid, experienced journalist you so obviously are, I can understand the privilege you maintain in not revealing your sources for these most fascinating, and heretofore unrevealed, minutiae. But surely you can cite just ONE source for this drivel... please?

I'll accept the distinct possibility that some of this might be stuff that i've never seen it before, but your skills in gigantic leaps to nowhere really does make me doubt it.

It's in the Warren Commission testimony of Michael Paine, Glenn. You should read it sometime.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Really? Michael Paine said, "I'm a brilliant intellectual" in WC testimony? Wonder how that went over in front of a group of bona fide (pseudo)brilliant intellectuals...

and this "good reason" that MP looked down on LHO was established in testimony?

and he couldn't get past page 1 of "Karl Marx" - but ate up Trotsky, spent half his life embracing socialism, moved to Russia, married a Russian woman, was embraced by the White Russians upon his return...

maybe he was able to get to the third, or maybe even the fourth, page...

"Yep, Justice Warren, I happen to be a brilliant intellectual - no offense to you, of course." you're right, i need to go read that...

Edited October 14, 2015 by Glenn Nall