Ted Sorenson delivered sometime between August 25-28 2008, Denver, CO

[Peter McGuire]

http://americanrhetoric.com/speeches/tedso...8dnchopeful.htm

"In this campaign, I will make no promises I cannot fulfill, pledge no spending we cannot afford, offer no posts to cronies you cannot trust, and propose no foreign commitment we should not keep. I will not shrink from opposing any party faction, any special interest group, or any major donor whose demands are contrary to the national interest. Nor will I shrink from calling myself a liberal, in the same sense that Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt, John and Robert Kennedy, and Harry Truman were liberals -- liberals who proved that government is not a necessary evil, but rather the best means of creating a healthier, more educated, and more prosperous America. "

Great stuff from JFK's speechwriter Ted Sorenson.

Edited June 5, 2008 by Peter McGuire

[Tim Gratz]

" . . . liberals who proved that government is not a necessary evil, but rather the best means of creating a healthier, more educated, and more prosperous America. "

Any one who thinks that government creates better educated persons and that government can create prosperity should immediately seek help.

Prosperity is created by jobs which are in turn created by entrepeneurs willing to take risks. Prosperity is also created by competition between businesses. Most often government harms job creation through confiscatory tax policies.

The charter school movement was born by the conviction that public schools were often failing to edeucate students. Colleges and universities do better because there is competition.

There is no question that Sorenson was and is a most talented wordsmith but that does not mean that the programs his speeches promoted worked. Experience demonstrates they did not. One exception of course is the Kennedy tax cut, an idea that is now anathema to modern Democrats including Barack Obama. Obama's rhetoric is no match for McCain's experience. The other day Obama complained that McCain failed to recognize his accomplishments but Obama failed to cite even one. Can you name any major legislation that Obama pushed through in his short time in the Senate? I thought not.

[Peter McGuire]

Think again, Tim. According to this writer, Obama has done a lot is his short time in the Senate. Perhaps he just didn't have the time to go into his record during the occasion you refer to:

I found the BEEF - Obama's Senate Record

by Helenann

Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 02:19:52 PM PDT

It has really been bothering me - the charges that Obama is all talk and no action. Those of us who support him and have reviewed his record know there is no basis to this charge, but just to make sure, I went to the Congressional Record

http://www.thomas.gov and did a search for bills sponsored or co-sponsored by Senator Obama in his three short years in the US Senate. I searched the 109th and 110th Congresses which cover the years 2005-2007.

In a nut shell I found:

Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 570 bills in the 109th and 110th Congress.

Senator Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored 15 bills that have become LAW since he joined the Senate in 2005.

Senator Obama has also introduced amendments to 50 bills, of which 16 were adopted by the Senate.

His record is in fact quite impressive for a junior Senator from Illinois.

Details below the fold.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/2.../783/290/461422

Edited June 5, 2008 by Peter McGuire

[William Kelly]

" . . . liberals who proved that government is not a necessary evil, but rather the best means of creating a healthier, more educated, and more prosperous America. "

Any one who thinks that government creates better educated persons and that government can create prosperity should immediately seek help.

IF ONE BASES JUDGEMENTS ON WHAT IS SAID AND WHAT IS DONE, THEN GEORGE BUSH HAS SET BACK COMPASIONATE CONSERVATISM DECADES, AND FEW VOTERS WILL FORGET THE PAST FOUR YEARS.

BK

Prosperity is created by jobs which are in turn created by entrepeneurs willing to take risks. Prosperity is also created by competition between businesses. Most often government harms job creation through confiscatory tax policies.

The charter school movement was born by the conviction that public schools were often failing to edeucate students. Colleges and universities do better because there is competition.

There is no question that Sorenson was and is a most talented wordsmith but that does not mean that the programs his speeches promoted worked. Experience demonstrates they did not. One exception of course is the Kennedy tax cut, an idea that is now anathema to modern Democrats including Barack Obama. Obama's rhetoric is no match for McCain's experience. The other day Obama complained that McCain failed to recognize his accomplishments but Obama failed to cite even one. Can you name any major legislation that Obama pushed through in his short time in the Senate? I thought not.

[William Kelly]

Barack Obama 2004 Democrtic National Convention Keynote Speech

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/c...bama2004dnc.htm

[Tim Gratz]

Dear Peter:

I once worked in a state legislature and know how the legislative process works.

The laundry list you gave me proves zip.

It does not distinguish between bills he sponsored or co-sponsored. The way the process works is that a bill's sponsors, who in more cases than one would expect are from both sides of the aisle, will try to get as many co-sponsors on a bill as they can. If Obama is simply a co-sponsor of a bill, it means really nothing at all. You'd probably find at least twenty co-sponsors of it. It's almost like him trying to take credit for supporting the bill.

And even if he "sponsored" a bill, it does not mean that it was his idea. If it was his idea, you would probably remember the bill as having some significance. Remember for instance the campaign finance reform law known as McCain-Feingold. Or the bill to reform corporate financial reporting which is known as the Sarbanes-Oxley Act. I do not recall one reference to a Obama---Act, and I did not see one so listed on the site you referenced. If you are aware of an important act known by his name, please let me know.

Moreover, the propodition that a bill passed by Congress is a good idea is itself a logical fallacy. The bill may make law something which is really terrible social policy. I like the old Barry Goldwater adage that he was more interested in seeing what bad laws a person had worked to repeal than what new laws a legislator has adopted. I also remember the maxim that no one's liberty is safe when the Legislature is in session.

Of course many conservatives detest Sen. McCain precisely because of his sponsorship of the McCain-Feingold law.

And let us not forget the accurate charge made by Sen. Clinton that Sen. Obama was too busy running for president to hold legislative hearings on foreign policy.

It is clear that Sen. Obama is not only one of the best rhetoricians we have seen since Ronald Reagan, JFK or Martin Luther King, Jr. but also one of the most intelligent. But intelligence does not always translate into good judgment or courage. Sen. Obama now says at the end of his speeches "God bless America" but he never had the courage to tell Pastor Wright how outrageous it was for him to denounce this country from the pulpit. As Hillary, who now bows in humble obeisiance to the Senator in the vain hope that he will put her on the ticket, once said: "You cannot pick your relatives but you can pick your pastor." Think, friends, if the situation were reversed, if it should suddenly be revealed that Sen. McCain had attended for twenty years, and counted as a friend, a pastor who spewed racial hatred from the pulpit. How far would it get if Sen. McCain protested that the pastor was a friend of his but he had never gotten around to condemn the pastor's racism? It would certainly demonstrate that Sen. McCain lacked the courage to stand up for racial equality to his racist pastor.

This is what someone wrote about the courage Sen. McCain showed when he was a guest at the Hanoi Hilton:

It came to me while I was having dinner with Doris Day. No, not that

Doris Day. The Doris Day who is married to Col. Bud Day, Congressional

Medal of Honor recipient, fighter pilot, Vietnam POW and roommate of

John McCain at the Hanoi Hilton.

As we ate near the Days' home in Florida recently, I heard things about

Sen. McCain that were deeply moving and politically troubling. Moving

because they told me things about him the American people need to know.

And troubling because it is clear that Mr. McCain is one of the most

private individuals to run for president in history.

When it comes to choosing a president, the American people want to know

more about a candidate than policy positions. They want to know about

character, the values ingrained in his heart. For Mr. McCain, that means

they will want to know more about him personally than he has been

willing to reveal.

Mr. Day relayed to me one of the stories Americans should hear. It

involves what happened to him after escaping from a North Vietnamese

prison during the war. When he was recaptured, a Vietnamese captor broke

his arm and said, 'I told you I would make you a cripple.'

The break was designed to shatter Mr. Day's will. He had survived in

prison on the hope that one day he would return to the United States and

be able to fly again. To kill that hope, the Vietnamese left part of a

bone sticking out of his arm, and put him in a misshapen cast. This was

done so that the arm would heal at 'a goofy angle,' as Mr. Day

explained. Had it done so, he never would have flown again.

But it didn't heal that way because of John McCain. Risking severe

punishment, Messrs. McCain and Day collected pieces of bamboo in the

prison courtyard to use as a splint. Mr. McCain put Mr. Day on the floor

of their cell and, using his foot, jerked the broken bone into place.

Then, using strips from the bandage on his own wounded leg and the

bamboo, he put Mr. Day's splint in place.

Years later, Air Force surgeons examined Mr. Day and complimented the

treatment he'd gotten from his captors. Mr. Day corrected them. It was

Dr. McCain who deserved the credit. Mr. Day went on to fly again.

Another story I heard over dinner with the Days involved Mr. McCain

serving as one of the three chaplains for his fellow prisoners. At one

point, after being shuttled among different prisons, Mr. Day had found

himself as the most senior officer at the Hanoi Hilton. So he tapped Mr.

McCain to help administer religious services to the other prisoners.

Today, Mr. Day, a very active 83, still vividly recalls Mr. McCain's

sermons. 'He remembered the Episcopal liturgy,' Mr. Day says, 'and

sounded like a bona fide preacher.' One of Mr. McCain's first sermons

took as its text Luke 20:25 and Matthew 22:21, 'render unto Caesar what

is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.' Mr. McCain said he and his

fellow prisoners shouldn't ask God to free them, but to help them become

the best people they could be while serving as POWs. It was Caesar who

put them in prison and Caesar who would get them out. Their task was to

act with honor.

As the old saying goes, Obama may talk the talk but McCain has walked the walk.

There is now question that Sen. Obama has the least legislative experience of any presidential candidate in modern history. And that is the scary thing.

Sen. McCain is a genuine and courageous war hero who risked death to help his fellow political prisoners. Gee, what other presidential candidate do I remember who is remembered for his courage in saving his fellow soldiers when the Japanese sunk his ship? Sen. McCain is indeed the JFK in this case when it comes to both personal and political courage. Obama's failure to stand up and protest his pastor's outrageous statements is the exact antithesis of the politicians JFK memorialized in "Profiles in Courage"--politicians who were willing to sacrifice their career and ambitions to stand up for what was right. Obama only abandoned his pastor when it was clear the pastor was becoming a political albatross to him; he embraced him when he needed his support in Chicago. Sen. McCain has demonstrated that political courage by taking stands that cost him the support of many conservatives--which could have cost him the nomination of his party.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Tim Gratz

[John Simkin]

Sen. McCain is a genuine and courageous war hero who risked death to help his fellow political prisoners. Gee, what other presidential candidate do I remember who is remembered for his courage in saving his fellow soldiers when the Japanese sunk his ship? Sen. McCain is indeed the JFK in this case when it comes to both personal and political courage. Obama's failure to stand up and protest his pastor's outrageous statements is the exact antithesis of the politicians JFK memorialized in "Profiles in Courage"--politicians who were willing to sacrifice their career and ambitions to stand up for what was right. Obama only abandoned his pastor when it was clear the pastor was becoming a political albatross to him; he embraced him when he needed his support in Chicago. Sen. McCain has demonstrated that political courage by taking stands that cost him the support of many conservatives--which could have cost him the nomination of his party.

Maybe you should read this thread?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12920

[Tim Gratz]

I will, but probably tonight.

Thanks, John.

[Peter McGuire]

Like most people outside the United States I very much want Barack Obama to be elected president. Although I fear he will have great difficulty clearing up the mess created by George Bush. (He currently has the highest disapproval ratings of any president in 70 years of polling).

I am not very impressed by John McCain’s record. For a start, he does not appear to be very intelligent. This is a problem when you consider the mess that Bush has got the world into. Despite his privileged background he graduated 894th out of 899) at military college. McCain’s father and grandfather were both four-star admirals and this ensured that he had a good military career.

Is this the sort of man who would like to be president of the United States?

From the speech written by Ted Sorenson:

"If I am elected president, my vow for this country can be summarized in one short, simple word: change. This November 2008 election -- the first since 1952 in which neither the incumbent president’s nor the incumbent vice president’s name will appear on the national ballot, indeed the first since 1976 in which the name of neither Bill Clinton nor George Bush will appear on the national ballot -- is destined to bring about the most profound change in the direction of this country since the election of 1932."

"I’m told that John F. Kennedy was fond of quoting Archimedes, who explained the principle of the lever by declaring: “Give me a place to stand, and I can move the world.” My fellow Americans -- here I stand. Come join me, and together we will move the world to a new era of a just and lasting peace."

Edited June 8, 2008 by Peter McGuire

[Tim Gratz]

Is THIS the sort of man you would want to be President?

Although he claims to have always disliked your political views, he never had the guts to say that to your face. Them, when his association with you may harm his political chancers, he publicly DENOUNCES your views but still embraces your views. When the political heat continues, he then abandons you as a friend. What moral cowardice is this?

I'll take a man with dignity and moral courage and fiftgy IQ points less than a moral midget like Obama. I'm glad I do not have friends like him, that's for sure! What US ally would count on this man's steadfastness? Reminds me of George McGovern who proclaimed he was 1,000 percent behind Eagleton and then a day later threw him to the wolves!

Sen. Clinton is not right about many things but she was right about Obama.

[Peter McGuire]

Is THIS the sort of man you would want to be President?

Although he claims to have always disliked your political views, he never had the guts to say that to your face. Them, when his association with you may harm his political chancers, he publicly DENOUNCES your views but still embraces your views. When the political heat continues, he then abandons you as a friend. What moral cowardice is this?

I'll take a man with dignity and moral courage and fiftgy IQ points less than a moral midget like Obama. I'm glad I do not have friends like him, that's for sure! What US ally would count on this man's steadfastness? Reminds me of George McGovern who proclaimed he was 1,000 percent behind Eagleton and then a day later threw him to the wolves!

Sen. Clinton is not right about many things but she was right about Obama.

Tim, why do you seem to appear on this forum arguing something from the ground up?

This isn't a "practice my debate skills forum".

This particular argument is weak in facts and lame in presentation.

George McGovern? Who was George McGovern?

A LOT of people like this guy and for good reason; furthermore, his opponent is unqualified in intellect and personality.

Yea, Yea , Yea, he is a war hero. I salute him for that.

Back to your motivation…..

[John Simkin]

I'll take a man with dignity and moral courage and fiftgy IQ points less than a moral midget like Obama. I'm glad I do not have friends like him, that's for sure! What US ally would count on this man's steadfastness? Reminds me of George McGovern who proclaimed he was 1,000 percent behind Eagleton and then a day later threw him to the wolves!

Sen. Clinton is not right about many things but she was right about Obama.

I would have thought you are the last person to describe Obama as a "moral midget". Could you explain in more detail what you mean by this?

Maybe you should read Larry Bartel's new book, "Unequal Democracy: The Political Economy of the New Gilded Age". Bartel's uses the widening gap between the rich and the poor to shed disturbing light on the workings of American democracy. Bartels demonstrates that elected officials respond to the views of affluent constituents but ignore the views of poor people. He shows that Republican presidents in particular have consistently produced much less income growth for middle-class and working-poor families than for affluent families, greatly increasing inequality. He provides revealing case studies of key policy shifts contributing to inequality, including the massive Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 and the erosion of the minimum wage. He also shows how Republican uses 'values issues' like abortion and gay marriage (issues that you seem to care so much about) to convince the poorly educated to vote against their own self-interest.

[Tim Gratz]

Re Obama's moral courage:

Sen McCain risked his life to save a friend's leg.

Obama embraced Rev Wright when he needed his suppoort in Chicago; when the minister's controversial views became a liability to Obama's presidential bid he dropped his friend as one might drop a hot potato.

Contrast a person willing to risk his life for a friend with a person who will not let a long-standing friendship stand in the way of his politcal ambitions.

[John Simkin]

Re Obama's moral courage:

Sen McCain risked his life to save a friend's leg.

Obama embraced Rev Wright when he needed his suppoort in Chicago; when the minister's controversial views became a liability to Obama's presidential bid he dropped his friend as one might drop a hot potato.

Contrast a person willing to risk his life for a friend with a person who will not let a long-standing friendship stand in the way of his politcal ambitions.

What is the difference between Obama condemning Wright and McCain condemning John Hagee? In both cases, Wright and Hagee made statements that the presidential candidates disagreed with. What would you have liked Obama and McCain to have said? You are my friend so you have the right to make outrageous statements. The only reason you consider this a moral issue is the Republicans have tried to use it as a smear to hurt Obama. In the UK politicians are responsible for statements that they make, not the ones made by friends.

[Tim Gratz]

John, I think there are different circumstances. For one thing, McCain had not spent long years associating with Hagee as Obama had with Rev. Wright. What most bothers me is his flip-flop, first using Wright when he needed him and then quickly abandoning him when the liability became too clear. I think Rev. Wright was very hurt by how Obama dumped him. As much as I disagree with a lot of Rev. Wright's outrageous statements, I think I can empathize with how he felt let down by Obama.