Jim Root Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 For years I have suggested that the primary conspirators may well have been John J. McCloy and Maxwell Taylor (and have more recently began to suspect Richard Helms as well). Most recently I have concentrated on McCloy and his roll in both the assassination and the use of his position on the Warren Commission to insure that certain information was covered up passed gently over. Several years ago I began a thread titled "Did the 'Big Fish" know" which centered on the fact that FBI Agent Patrick Hosty had sent a note on November 4, 1963 that detailed exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working and that that note was never given a Commission Exhibit Number and has never been uncovered althought two other Hosty notes were given Commission Exhibit Numbers and did make it to the office of Richard Helms. Today I would like to take this information a step further and make some additional suggestions on how the machanics of murder may have been put in place by Maxwell Taylor in his position as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and control over Air Force One. It is actually surprisingly simple. Hosty note sent November 4, 1963 detailing where Oswald was working. November 8, 1963 Mr. Killerman assigns Winston Lawson to the Dallas portion of the Presidential trip of November 22 and tells him that there would be a 45 minute time lapse for the motorcade trip although the location of the luncheon was still up in the air. In his testimony Lawson states, "...This figuered a great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes. Mr Stern then asks: The 45 minute time interval? Lawson: Yes, sir. Stern: Was established for you by the White House? Lawson: Yes, sir. We find two other important facts. The Trade Mart Luncheon site was established by the White House and that the motorcade would go down Main Street. Given the time factor, we learn that Lawson would know how far the motorcade would travel during the 45 minutes aloted (figuring "a great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes"). At the end of this distance (dictated by time) the motorcade would go off Main onto Houston and then Elm to the Stimmons Fwy to backtrack to the Trade Mart luncheon leaving the TSBD as the last building passed. Looking deeper into this we find that the 45 minutes was created by creating a delay in Fort Worth before the Presidential plane left for Dallas. Looking at Mr. Kellerman's testimony we find the President giving a speech in the parking lot of his hotel at 8:25am followed by a breakfast with the Chamber of Commerce. We know that this was a short breakfast because Kellerman received a phone call from Dallas about the wheather at 10:00am while the President had returned to his Suite at the hotel. For nearly an hour and a half there is very little activity except to travel the few miles to the airport. (from the testimony of Roy Kellerman Mr. Specter: Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from fort Worth? Kellerman: We were airborne from fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning....we arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40am. Kellerman mentions three times in his testimony the arrival time of 11:40 at Love Field. I have had an opportunity to be present at a Vice Presidential landing....it arrived at exactly the minute that it was supposed to just as President Kennedy's plane landed at Love Field at exactly the time planned by Washinton and those in charge of military transportation said it would land on November 8, 1963. The Presidential Plane could have left at anytime from Fort Worth after the Commerce Breakfast but an hour and a half interlude was provided so that the plane would land in Dallas at exactly 11:40am. This hour and a half delay created exactly the right amount of time for the motorcade to travel past one last building on its way to the Trade Mart Luncheon and that one last building was the TSBD building where Oswald was working! Once again, as Winston Lawson says, "This figuered a great deal in the parade route, the 45 minutes." Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 [Without meaning to deflect the enquiry, I'd just like to note the concern re wheather, which also occurred re the bubble top at Lovefield, but there it was decided on with regards to weather at downtown Dallas. Is it possible to know whether the concern for Dallas weather was also with regards to downtown? The reason for the question should be obvious, being that, for a sniper, atmospheric conditions are an essential ingredient regards to success. If the mission had failed, I doubt very much that another opportunity would have presented itself, and that JFK would have gone on to a second term with all the experience and wisdom gathered from the first term and the world today would likely be a very different place.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Jim, I know this will be perceived by some (many?) as simplistic, presumptuous, and egotistical, but I think this information makes for a solution, at least as far as who dispatched Jack Ruby to the basement garage of the Dallas PD, and how and why "attorney for the mafia", Henry Crown's lawyer, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., got placed on the WC, and assigned to finesse the cover up.: I think McCloy was "serving" the Henry Crown, Walter Annenberg, Conrad Hilton Syndicate, because it was a natural extension of his instinct, what his mother, Anna had positioned him to do from the time he was a boy.... http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=D...nG=Search+BooksThe Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 90 Donald Gibson - History - 2000 - 306 pages More importantly, the record to be reviewed here shows that within the Commission, McCloy and Dulles exercised more authority than did the Commission's official head.... http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=H...nG=Search+Books The Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 95 Donald Gibson ...On the previous day, McCloy had objected to Olney because he had been associated with the Justice Department and, therefore, indirectly associated with the FBI. Now McCloy objects on the grounds that Olney does not get along with people in general and with Hoover in in particular. The concessions made by the Chairman of the Commission are of no help to him. McCloy was not going to allow Warren to involve Olney in the Commission's work in any capacity.... Jim, While it is true that McCloy and Ford made sure that Olney, promoted heavily by Earl Warren to be the Commission's chief counsel, author Donald Gibson, considered the best source in this area of study, makes the case that Warren brought up the name of Albert E. Jenner, Jr., as a senior assistant investigative counsel, and that http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=T...nG=Search+BooksThe Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 96 Donald Gibson ...Warren then said that Albert Jenner of Chicago had been suggested. Warrem did not identify the source of the suggestion. ...Warren said that he had checked on Jenner with a number of people and they all recommended him. Two of Jenner's references were mentioned by name. Tom Clark former Attorney General of the U.S. and active supporter in the Truman years of J. Edgar Hoover's anti subversion efforts, knew Jenner through their common participation on the Judiciary Committee of the American Bar Association. The other named supporter of Jenner was Dean Acheson, who had worked with Jenner on Acheson's committee on civil rights. Jenner came to the Commission then with recommendations from and past connections to one of the people involved in creating the Commission and someone who was at one time at least, close to Hoover. Unfortunately, there is very little additional information on the selection of Counsel and organization of the Commission in the Executive Session transcripts.... http://cliffordshackforum.blogspot.com/200...essers-son.htmlThis is Anna Snader McCloy of Philadelphia. She was Therese Schiff's hairdresser during the summers on Mount Desert Island. Anna was a pretty, vigorous, and intelligent young widow who managed to make a small but decent family income by teaching herself hairdressing. During the year she catered to the rich of Philadelphia, during the summer her clients were the rich on Mount Desert Island. As one of the island's few hairdressers Anna made her rounds on foot or bicycle. Rising by six she carried her large sack of materials to "do heads". Her pleasing personality made of these rich men and women of society not only clients, but friends of a sort. Anna was the kind of woman who coveted respectability more than money. ... http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310...pg=6817,4424376Eugene Register-Guard - Mar 19, 1977 Ex- Yankees Owner Linked To Mobsters . Crown, now a Chicago financier who owned the Empire State building from 1964 to ... mob Interests Ziffren, a close friend of mob attorney Sidney Korshak, ... http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=Kno...1&scoring=a Knowland Calls Brown Untruthful in Charge Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Oct 30, 1958 Brown, his opponent, of untruthful- ness, by revealing new de- tails of the business life of Democratic National Com- Paul Ziffren and by attacking 'Brown's ... Knowland said Ziffren. should tell of his Interest In the Kirkeby Hotel Corp. and of the Kirkeby concern s con- nections with the National Cuba Hotel Corp., ... http://books.google.com/books?lr=&cd=1...=1&oi=spell Supermob: how Sidney Korshak and his criminal associates became America's ... - Page 98 Gus Russo - True Crime - 2006 - 623 pages ... in the hotel business though Siegel and under the trade name of the Kirkeby Hotels. ... places for assignations coordinated by others in the Supermob. ... http://books.google.com/books?lr=&cd=1...nG=Search+Books Supermob: how Sidney Korshak and his criminal associates became America's ... - Page 98 Gus Russo - True Crime - 2006 - 623 pages ... for assignations coordinated by others in the Supermob. LAPD intel files refer to Paul Ziffren delivering call girls to Tahoe gambler Mandel Agron at ... At these links, you can read Gus Russo describing Paul Ziffren as Conrad Hilton's lawyer in west coast hotel deals, which means he was also Hilton's financier, Henry Crown's lawyer.: http://books.google.com/books?id=S4YrAAAAY...LA+and&cd=1http://books.google.com/books?id=S4YrAAAAY...MERA&edge=1 Paul Ziffren's brother: http://www.google.com/archivesearch?q=%22h...s&scoring=aBusinessman Is Charged In White Slavery Case . St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive - Nov 25, 1958 Herman Ziffren, prominent Davenport, Iowa, businessman and brother of california Demo cratic National Committeeman, was named yesterday in a threecount ... The only way to explain Tom Clark telling Drew Pearson that from 1946, the FBI had investigated the claims of James M. Ragen that the chiefs of the Chicago Syndicate were Crown, "the Hilton Hotel chain, and Walter Annenberg," and Tom Clark choosing Crown's son as his law clerk, Earl Warren and his family being close friends with Conrad Hilton, Warren choosing Ziffren's son as his law clerk, and Earl Warren and Tom Clark being two of the three names documented as putting Henry Crown's lawyer on the Warren Commissiion to determine if there was a conspiracy, is because they were ordered to do so, in collusion with John McCloy. McCloy most likely blocked Olney and installed Rankin because he could not trust Olney. In the background is Crown hiring Pat Hoy from Byfield, the JFK family leasing Byfield's mother's estate for most of JFK's presidency, William Walton being "old friends' with Byfield's mother, Kupcinet spending 60 years of his evenings evenings in Byrfield-Hoy's Pump Room restaurant, Kupcinet's partners growing up with Jack Ruby and still acquainted with him near the the 1963 era, and, lastly, Byfield's widow marrying Robert S. McNamara. Also, you have Harriman, Pryor, Bush, hiding the coal and steel assets of the Petschek family, and devote R.C., William HG Fitzgerald marrying Jewish Petschek daughter with Byfield as his best man. Fitzgerald is a principal American Knights of Malta official, and is a founder of the Atlantic Counsel, and there is a list of fellow members there, tied to the Bushes, the Hookers, and to DeMohrenschildt and the CIA through James Greene, and John Macomber, Bush family friend who hired the son-in-law of the late Ed Hooker, and Thomas Devine, Bush's CIA business partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hogan Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 While it is true that McCloy and Ford made sure that Olney, promoted heavily by Earl Warren to be the Commission's chief counsel, author Donald Gibson, considered the best source in this area of study, makes the case that Warren brought up the name of Albert E. Jenner, Jr., as a senior assistant investigative counsel, and that http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=T...nG=Search+BooksThe Kennedy assassination cover-up - Page 96 Donald Gibson ...Warren then said that Albert Jenner of Chicago had been suggested. Warrem did not identify the source of the suggestion. ...Warren said that he had checked on Jenner with a number of people and they all recommended him. Two of Jenner's references were mentioned by name. Tom Clark former Attorney General of the U.S. and active supporter in the Truman years of J. Edgar Hoover's anti subversion efforts, knew Jenner through their common participation on the Judiciary Committee of the American Bar Association. The other named supporter of Jenner was Dean Acheson, who had worked with Jenner on Acheson's committee on civil rights. Jenner came to the Commission then with recommendations from and past connections to one of the people involved in creating the Commission and someone who was at one time at least, close to Hoover. Unfortunately, there is very little additional information on the selection of Counsel and organization of the Commission in the Executive Session transcripts.... In his book Breach of Trust, Gerald McKnight examines efforts to "dump Olney." In his review of McKnight's book James DiEugenio writes: "One of the things Breach of Trust does that is singular in the field is to demonstrate just how J. Lee Rankin was put in place as Chief Counsel, and how influential he really was. Previous authors have noted how Earl Warren had tried to insert his friend and colleague Warren Olney III as Chief Counsel, how certain commissioners thwarted this, and how Rankin was then substituted. But no author has explained at this length and depth just why Olney was so objectionable, how and why he was shot down, and why Rankin was the replacement choice. This part of the book begins on page 41 with a description of the Warren Commission's first executive session of December 5, 1963. McKnight briefly describes Warren's professional relationship with Olney from his days in California, showing just how effective and collegial they were in pursuing some of Warren's progressive goals. In the next paragraph, McKnight provides the transition to the opposition with three pungent sentences: As head of Justice's Criminal Division Olney also had a shared history with FBI Director Hoover that was altogether different. Hoover despised Olney. As one FBI agent remarked, "Olney was the only guy who had balls enough to stand up to Hoover." (p. 41) Among Olney's sins on Hoover's scorecard were his public pronouncements about the presence and influence of the Mafia. Second was the fact that he was a liberal on the civil rights issue. It turns out that both Hoover and Nicholas Katzenbach from Justice were determined to strike preemptively so Olney would not take office. Their source for Warren's plans for chief counsel was the FBI informant on the Warren Commission: Congressman Gerald Ford. (Another achievement of the book is the demonstration of just how big an informant Ford was for Hoover. It is more than what was hinted at before which, in turn, shows how brazenly Ford lied about this in televised interviews.) Katzenbach wanted Olney out because he perceived him as a maverick who he would not be able to control. And since he already had written his famous memorandum about convincing the public as to Oswald's role as lone gunman, he did not want Olney straying off the range on this issue. In fact, as the author notes, Katzenbach was so worried about this possibility that he installed his man from the Justice Department, Howard Willens, on the Commission to keep an eye out if Olney did become counsel. (p. 42) It was overkill. Hoover and Katzenbach unleashed a lobbying campaign on the Commission to head off Olney. The point man for Hoover on this was Cartha DeLoach. DeLoach's prime inside asset for the "Dump Olney" program was Ford. (McKnight does a nice job penciling in the long "give and take" relationship between Hoover and Ford that made them such amiable chums.) Considering what was at stake, there is little doubt as to why this troika went into overdrive to accomplish their mission. For as McKnight states, "Had Olney served as Chief Counsel it is very likely that the Warren Commission Report would have been an entirely different historical document." (p. 44) When Warren tried to push Olney through at the second executive session, it was Ford and John McCloy who joined forces to obstruct him. And McCloy just happened to have a short list of alternative choices on hand, one of which was J. Lee Rankin. An impromptu sub-committee was formed consisting of Ford, McCloy, Allen Dulles, and Warren. In a matter of hours, Rankin became the consensus choice. Warren really had no option in the matter since, as Ford told DeLoach, both he and Dulles threatened to resign if Olney was chosen. (p. 45)" DiEugenio's full review: http://ctka.net/reviews/breach.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I wonder if his replacing satisfy with convince shows a misreading of the memo and/or an antipathy with Katzenbach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hogan Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I wonder if his replacing satisfy with convince shows a misreading of the memo and/or an antipathy with Katzenbach? Maybe neither. http://www.jfklancer.com/Katzenbach.html http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol3_0235b.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The Bottom Line is, and as the Secret Service Advance Reports would reflect, if they weren't intentionally destroyed so you can't read them, is that it easier to get from Fort Worth to the Trade Mart by direct auto route than flying 15 miles and backtracking the motorcade through the city of Dallas. They would never have flown the plane that short distance from the SAC air field in Fort Worth to Love Field if there was no 45 minute motorcade. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) In his book Breach of Trust, Gerald McKnight examines efforts to "dump Olney." In his review of McKnight's book James DiEugenio writes: "One of the things Breach of Trust does that is singular in the field is to demonstrate just how J. Lee Rankin was put in place as Chief Counsel, and how influential he really was. Previous authors have noted how Earl Warren had tried to insert his friend and colleague Warren Olney III as Chief Counsel, how certain commissioners thwarted this, and how Rankin was then substituted. But no author has explained at this length and depth just why Olney was so objectionable, how and why he was shot down, and why Rankin was the replacement choice. This part of the book begins on page 41 with a description of the Warren Commission's first executive session of December 5, 1963. McKnight briefly describes Warren's professional relationship with Olney from his days in California, showing just how effective and collegial they were in pursuing some of Warren's progressive goals. In the next paragraph, McKnight provides the transition to the opposition with three pungent sentences: As head of Justice's Criminal Division Olney also had a shared history with FBI Director Hoover that was altogether different. Hoover despised Olney. As one FBI agent remarked, "Olney was the only guy who had balls enough to stand up to Hoover." (p. 41) Among Olney's sins on Hoover's scorecard were his public pronouncements about the presence and influence of the Mafia. Second was the fact that he was a liberal on the civil rights issue. It turns out that both Hoover and Nicholas Katzenbach from Justice were determined to strike preemptively so Olney would not take office. Their source for Warren's plans for chief counsel was the FBI informant on the Warren Commission: Congressman Gerald Ford. (Another achievement of the book is the demonstration of just how big an informant Ford was for Hoover. It is more than what was hinted at before which, in turn, shows how brazenly Ford lied about this in televised interviews.) Katzenbach wanted Olney out because he perceived him as a maverick who he would not be able to control. And since he already had written his famous memorandum about convincing the public as to Oswald's role as lone gunman, he did not want Olney straying off the range on this issue. In fact, as the author notes, Katzenbach was so worried about this possibility that he installed his man from the Justice Department, Howard Willens, on the Commission to keep an eye out if Olney did become counsel. (p. 42) It was overkill. Hoover and Katzenbach unleashed a lobbying campaign on the Commission to head off Olney. The point man for Hoover on this was Cartha DeLoach. DeLoach's prime inside asset for the "Dump Olney" program was Ford. (McKnight does a nice job penciling in the long "give and take" relationship between Hoover and Ford that made them such amiable chums.) Considering what was at stake, there is little doubt as to why this troika went into overdrive to accomplish their mission. For as McKnight states, "Had Olney served as Chief Counsel it is very likely that the Warren Commission Report would have been an entirely different historical document." (p. 44) When Warren tried to push Olney through at the second executive session, it was Ford and John McCloy who joined forces to obstruct him. And McCloy just happened to have a short list of alternative choices on hand, one of which was J. Lee Rankin. An impromptu sub-committee was formed consisting of Ford, McCloy, Allen Dulles, and Warren. In a matter of hours, Rankin became the consensus choice. Warren really had no option in the matter since, as Ford told DeLoach, both he and Dulles threatened to resign if Olney was chosen. (p. 45)" DiEugenio's full review: http://ctka.net/reviews/breach.html Michael, In DeLoach's memo of Dec. 17. 1963, not released publicly until mid 2008, Deloach describes what informant Ford secretly communicates to him about the business of the December 16, WC executive session. http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives...ford/ford03.PDF Cartha DeLoach is still alive, I believe, living on Hilton Head island, SC. Nearly 90, if he is still coherent, he knows that Albert Jenner was an "attorney for the Mafia," and that Hoover, Tom Clark, and Earl Warren all knew it and Hoover only watched as Clark and Warren, with Rankin's help, placed Albert Jenner on the Commission as senior assistant investigative counsel. Deloach reports that he tells Ford, in "strictest confidence," that Earl Warren is "quite close" to Drew Pearson and uses Pearson to communicate his agenda with the public. Ford makes it clear that Rankin is sponsoring the appointment of "Jenner" and assures the Commissioners that Janner will pass a background check. Ford has some concerns and request an FBI background check, anyway. We know from Drew Pearson's 1974 diariies, supported by his October 26, 1963 newspaper column, that Jenner could not pass a legitimate FBI background check, because he was Henry Crown's lawyer and Crown's son was an associate at Jenner's lawfirm.: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/11962.htmlWrites Larry Ludlow: “Dear Lew: Regarding former President Ford, my wife and I have followed the Kennedy assassination pseudo-investigations over the years, and I recalled this FOIA-revealed mention of Ford’s role as the FBI’s snitch on the Warren Commission. It is footnote 3 on pages 43-44 of Mark Lane’s book, Plausible Denial, 1991. "...Ford, the documents disclose, could only remember the last names of the two men. The FBI then began an investigation to determine who “Adams” and “Jenner” were. ... http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yH4eA...y+gen&hl=enDaytona Beach Morning Journal - Oct 26, 1963 pg. 8 Murder Of A Chicago Gambler . Washington Merry Go Round By Drew Pearson ...I took the story back to Washington and Atty. Gen. Tom Clark authorized a dozen or so FBI men to check on Ragen's facts. A couple of weeks later, they reported that they were true. They also reported that control of the underworld reached into very high places. Some of the rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respected businessmen and politicians whose names were household words in Chicago. Some of them, it was stated, had reformed. Yet they still controlled the mob... (Per PD Scott and Curt Gentry, confirmed by Google books search result. http://books.google.com/books?cd=2&q=%...le.com/books?cd Diaries, 1949-1959, Volume 1 Drew Pearson - Biography & Autobiography - 1974 ...Tom Clark told me afterwards that it led to very high places...I learned later trhat it pointed to the Hilton Hotel chain, Henry Crown...financier in Chicago, (involved in Cook County real estate deals with Jake Arvey, the local Democratic political boss), and Walter Annenberg (son of the pre-war wire-service owner, Moe Annenberg.) Edited March 10, 2010 by Tom Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Thank you, this has really been an eyeopener, a lesson. I feel sure there is more to it as well but that's a very interesting introduction. I've always wondered what Kennedys men would do as far as what they could do in case they recognised that a successful coup had taken place. It'd be great to have Ted Soerensen as a member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) I think McCloy was "serving" the Henry Crown, Walter Annenberg, Conrad Hilton Syndicate, because it was a natural extension of his instinct, what his mother, Anna had positioned him to do from the time he was a boy.... I take Tom's points, but there is another matter of McCloy family relations to ponder. From wikipedia: "[McCloy] served as chairman of the Chase Manhattan Bank from 1953 to 1960, and as chairman of the Ford Foundation from 1958 to 1965; he was also a trustee of the Rockefeller Foundation from 1946 to 1949, and then again from 1953 to 1958, before he took up the position at Ford. "From 1954 to 1970, he was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations in New York, to be succeeded by David Rockefeller, who had worked closely with him at the Chase Bank. McCloy had a long association with the Rockefeller family, going back to his early Harvard days when he taught the young Rockefeller brothers how to sail. He was also a member of the Draper Committee, formed in 1958 by Eisenhower. "He later served as advisor to John F. Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan..." One of the important story arcs of US politics c. 1952-1976 is the entrance of the Rockefeller family into the presidential races and administrations, including the unelectable Nelson Rockefeller's strategies for controlling the White House through Nixon's first term, the heavy stacking of Nixon's second-term staff with even more Rockefeller associates (with Haig and Butterfield stepping in to bookend Nixon as the sacrificed Haldeman and Erlichman once had - up to the eve of the uncontrollable Nixon's resignation), and Nelson's causing of a Constitutional amendment to allow his appointment as Ford's VP - followed by two near-miss assassination attempts on Ford, another former Warren commissioner like McCloy. Here you have the biggest of big oil aligned with the Fed, trying to secure power in the Vietnam and post-Kennedy family years. Who, really, did the Hiltons, Annenbergs. and Crowns look to for guidance and the greenlighting of projects? Who did the Murchisons and Hunts, as well as, say, old New York money like Averell Harriman over in Vietnam, look toward? Who helped fund and direct the agenda of the Ford Foundation, harbor for McCloy and McNamara? Who did the Bundy brothers, Allen Dulles, Richard Bissell, and George Kennan, turn their faces toward, as if sunflowers? That's the elephant in the room - whether it backs the elephant or the donkey. Edited March 11, 2010 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 David, While we share well grounded ideas that McCloy's and Dulles's Warren Commission playbook was authored by Rockefeller priorities, perhaps in concert with the other 12 famiilies described by TNEC in 1940 as having hidden control of 15 of the top 200 US corporations, we can't break it down like we can the actions and associations of Tom Clark and Earl Warren with the Syndicate and with the appointment of Albert Jenner. Look at the arms length manner in which McCloy cleared a path for Jenner's appointment. The fingerprints on the act are those of Warren and Clark, McCloy stays at least one appointment removed, no closer than stopping Olney and installing Rankin. McClloy does not have his wife and daughter hobnobbing with Hilton or appointing the son of Henry Crown or of Paul Ziffren as his law clerk. I think we got to make the case we can, and not the one almost impossible to support nearly as well. As for why the elite "cut in" or tolerate the percentage points of their total potential take that is raked off by the Syndicate, I suspect it is a reaction to the elite's fear of the common man's potentiial to wake up and push back. Old John D. Rockefeller was petty and insecure enough to overreact to Ida Tarbell's muckraking. I think they perceive that the mob controls mainstreet and siphons off any excess cash in the pockets of the working class, and some of the rent and grocery money, too. If the public gets vocal about wealth inequity and concentration, the elite can use organized crime as an excuse and call for launching a fake "law and order" crusade. These are the same folks, with frontmen Warren and McCloy, who locked up the west coast, ethnic Japanese in the early 1940's, so I'm guessing they regard the mob as a grassroots form of suppression of the urban masses. http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=d...nG=Search+BooksBattling Wall Street: the Kennedy presidency - Page 69 Donald Gibson - Business & Economics - 1994 - 195 pages ...were part of this operation, perhaps the dominant part. These others are part of a network of individuals and families who tie together a wide assortment of institutions and organizations, stretching from top banks and oil companies to foundations, think tanks, the media, and the intelligence community. At the center of this network, and highly visible in the Time complex, were people associated with the two most significant financial groups in the United States — Morgan and Rockefeller. Lundberg pointed out 68 that in the 1920s Luce got financial help to start the company from Harry Davison, a Morgan banking partner and classmate of Luce's at Yale, and from other wealthy people including E. Roland Harriman. Lundberg went on to say that Time, Inc. in the 1930s was "owned by the inner circle of contemporary American finance, and the policies of its publications down to the smallest detail consistently reflect its ownership." In the early 1960s various financial services were provided to Time by Morgan Guaranty Trust, Drexel & Co. (long affiliated with Morgan), and Chemical Bank (Rockefeller). Time's historical relationship with Morgan interests and the Harrimans and the more recent connection to Rockefeller were also reflected in the makeup of Time's board of directors and management. For example, Maurice T. Moore, one of Time's directors who was married to Henry Luce's sister, was a member of the law firm of Cravath, Swaine & Moore (previously known as Cravath, Henderson, Leffingwell and de Gersdorff). This law firm worked closely with JR Morgan, Harriman's Union Pacific Railroad, and Brown Brothers & Co. before it merged with the Harriman bank. Handling most of the work for Cravath was John J. McCloy of whom we will see more below. A partner in that law firm, Russell Leffingwell, became chairman of JP Morgan in 1948. Leffingwell also served as chairman of the Morgan-Rocke- feller-led Council on Foreign Relations from 1946 to 1953 (he was succeeded by McCloy).. Speaking of Time, Inc.....instead of publishing Time Inc.'s own story, they are leaking it thru Pearson.: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gyIRA...icago&hl=en Feb 15, 1964 ...With the expenditure of only $7.25 for a long distance phone call, this cokumn was able to interview Kenneth Rich, crack correspondent of Life Magazine, regarding his rather insightful visit to the Reybolds farm in Maryland... Cops, Robbers, Witnesses For instance, my associate, Jack Anderson, in talking to Kenneth Rich of Life Magazine, learned that Reynolds told him: "The two who had most to gain from Kennedy's assassination were Hoffa and JOhnson." With a sly wink, Reynolds implied that he knew something about President Kennedy's assassination "they" were trying to keep from Attorney General Robert Kennedy. When Rich pressed to find out what Reynolds knew, ..he replied mysteriously: "I have my theories." Asked about his theories, Reynolds said he believed Jack Ruby had killed the accused assassin, Lee Oswald, for a purpose. Reynolds added in hushed confidence that Ruby had known Teamster Chief Jimmy Hoffa's henchman, Allan Dorfman in Chicago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) I'm just saying that great projects - an anti-communist war in SE Asia, an anti-fascist war in Europe (both of therm map-changing endeavors) are greenlighted by the highest powers, often as long-term gambles with discreet management, or successive and visible attempts at it. So, too, are the punctuating short-term phenomena - violent or sudden changes of administrations, naked grabs for a seat in the executive branch. One branch of research ought to look at where power and influence among the JFK-era players coincided and coalesced. We ought to take investigation above small-oil interests and corporate heads wanting defense contracts. The Rockefeller influence is always at the edges of what we look at - particularly in Republican party politics and, through it, the accession to executive power of the hitherto unelectable - Nixon, Ford, Nelson Rockefeller. Turning to that troika in pursuit of stability overseas and in the 1970s US is a telling motion. Rockefeller support, followed by Rockefeller restraint, is highly evident in the two Nixon terms. (Nixon's second admin reads like a chapter roll of the CFR.) Just what was the Rockefeller interest in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations? In S. E. Asia? Why would the mightiest tolerate the mob? They're professional street-level criminals expert in retailing the products of power. And they're great cut-outs - people are satisfied when they go down like Edward G. Robinson; people think that's the end of the movie.. Tom, this is not a criticism of the fine connections you've made in this thread. It's a wish for future study and publishing. Great events and movements, short or long in duration, have great causes. Edited March 11, 2010 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 David, Thank you, I didn't take your post as a criticism. I just favor going after the weaker links in the chain. Expose Warren and you chip away at McCloy, and then the people who pulled his strings. Sam Pryor and the Harrimans were beholden to the Rockefellers, http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=161030 Pryor was Dodge's "manager" at Remington Bridgeport, and then the banker's front man. Marcellus Dodge's wife: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethel_Geraldine_RockefellerEthel Geraldine Rockefeller Dodge (April 3, 1882 – August 13, 1973) was the youngest child and only daughter of Almira Geraldine Goodsell Rockefeller and William Avery Rockefeller, Jr., the Standard Oil tycoon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush#Career...In 1901, he returned to Columbus to be General Manager of Buckeye Steel Castings Company, which manufactured railway parts. The company was run by Frank Rockefeller, the brother of oil magnate John D. Rockefeller, and among its clients were the railroads controlled by E. H. Harriman. The Bush and Harriman families would be closely associated at least until the end of World War II. In 1908, Rockefeller retired and Bush became President of Buckeye, a position he would hold until 1927, becoming one of the top industrialists of his generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 This thread was started to attempt to shed light on how Maxwell Taylor could have controlled the design of the motorcade route through Dallas by influencing the departure time from Fort Worth and therefore the landing time in Dallas. I must admit that I appreciate the attention being given John J. McCloy since I tend to believe that no assassination plot would have accured without McCloy's approval. Contrary to many suggestions I believe are being made it is my opinion that McCloy answered to nobody! By 1963 (and for a long time before then) McCloy was, in my opinion, one of the most powerful men in the world on his own! Yes, McCloy was associated with most of the richest families in the United States and a read of "Black Tom" will show how McCloy, in solving this particular case, made a lot of money for some very powerful interests early in his career. When Stimson placed McCloy in a position to totally revamp the military intelligence machinary of the United States McCloy, in effect, gained access to every secrete that America had from that point forward. He literally created the CIA and NSA. He literally rebuilt post war Europe and help to design the European Common Market (McCloy's vision of a United States of Europe). Reading about McCloy's tenure in Germany you find a man that could tell a President (Truman) that if he was going to take a job he would have total control and would refuse to be interferred with. Truman gave that horse its head and McCloy completed his task quite successfully. Kennedy on the other hand refused to follow McCloy's lead and ended up dead. McCloy once said that if there was to be a choice between the security of the United States and the Constitution of the United States that the Constitution was just a scrape of paper. Could a person who believed this, if he felt that the President was jepordizing the security of the United States by proposing a limited test ban treaty versus a comprhensive test ban treat, eliminate a President? One thing is for certain, after the death of Kennedy McCloy got what he wanted! From some earlier posts on McCloy: "I am also intrigued by John J. McCloys association with Maxwell Taylor during the Italian operations during WWII. It is at this time that the State Department is forced to admit that they were unprepared for instituting civil control over the vast amout of occupied Italy. The Army, with McCloy at the helm, was in negotiations (in many cases led by Maxwell Taylor) with members of the former facist regime to assure the domestic tranquility necessary to support the movement of needed war materials through occupied territory. This "need" to influence local politics would continue throughout the remainder of the 20th Century. Taylor is again found in a working relationship with McCloy in the post war administration of occupied Germany. These two tennis players were in a position to become very tight associates during this period of time and to make some very influential contacts. Within the Kennedy administration we find this 20 year working relationship developing further. First: Mccloy plays a pivotal role in both of these person’s careers. In the case of Warren - McCloy we find them coming together in early 1942 and the relocation of the Japanese to internment camps. Support for Warren to become Governor of California, support for Warren to be the vice-presidential nominee with Dewy in 48, support for a Warren appointment to the Supreme Court and (in an interesting twist) support for the Warren Court decisions on racial integration (something McCloy had authored and pushed through for the military). Second: McCloy was in charge of military intelligence during WWII. While Donovan led the OSS, Donovan was subordinate to General McCloy (yes General). McCloy kept key OSS men in place through the development of the National Security Act and engineered the rise of Dulles to the top leadership position within the CIA. Third: Dulles was a Kennedy family associate and before the 1960 election is said to have assured Joe Kennedy that his son would be the next president. In hindsight a rather provocative thing for the head of the CIA to say to the wealthy father of a presidential hopeful while working within an administration where the Vice President was also a candidate. But perhaps not so surprising when people like General Maxwell Taylor are bailing on the Eisenhower administration because of a perceived softness on communism. Fourth: Dulles brother (John Foster) was a primary supporter and speechwriter for the Dewy - Warren ticket in 48 and was also a Warren supporter for the Supreme Court. My speculation is that Warren was a "go to guy" that would, in reality, loyally do whatever he was told to do by the powers that surrounded him. His life is not a life that is philosophically consistent. All of which leads me to a conclusion that McCloy is the real leader of this trio. McCloy, tennis buddy, of Maxwell Taylor. McCloy, who worked with Maxwell Taylor as the Army developed Civil Military control techniques in Italy during WWII. McCloy who with General Taylor administered occupied Germany. And McCloy who along with General Taylor was brought into the Kennedy administration and put into a key position dealing with global survival." "One of the earliest Warren Commission meetings that McCloy missed was missed so that McCloy could attend a the Nuclear Disamament meeting in Geneva. It was at that meeting that Yuri Nosenko defected to the United States. Was this defection a coincidence? I think not. Both the Soviet Union and the United States had a reason, after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, to distance themselves from any association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I also believe that James Jesus Angelton suspected that Nosenko was a false defector because Angelton was positioned to know that Oswald had been used as a "patsy" when he was sent to the Soviet Union." "Kai Bird's book on McCloy spends very little time dealing with the importance of the Magic intercepts during WWII. I believe it is possible that McCloy, by the time of Bird's interviews and books, was not about to emphasize this aspect of his life because it may have led to a connection to John B. Hurt. In the life of Stuart Menzies (person in charge of British Intelligence during WWII and McCloy's counterpart) the importance of protecting signals intelligence was paramount and plays a major role in any story about Menzies. Why was this aspect of McCloy's life deemphisized? Perhaps more importantly for those of you that are processing these posts is to remember that I believe that the relationship between John J. McCloy and General Maxwell Taylor is a primary key to this topic as well. As Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Taylor would be the "Big Fish" of military intelligence even if McCloy were not who I actually believe him to have been. Add to the menu Taylor's student and most reliable "right hand" man, Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker and the story adds additional meat for our table" "And the next day (June 11, 1963) McCloy was out chief arms negotiator and W. Averell Harriman was in. On June 12, 1963 McCloy would pen a letter to Maj. General Edwin Anderson Walker (the man Lee Harvey Oswald was accused of attempting to assassinate in April of 1963)." "McCloy, when questioning FBI Agent James Patrick Hosty, became aware that Hosty had written a note that stated where Oswald was working 18 days before the assassination of JFK. This would be an important piece of information (to know where Oswald was working) for anyone attempting to frame or use Oswald to assassinate the President. Yet McCloy, the man who had cracked the Black Tom case, neglected to give this note a Commission Exhibit number. I would call this a major ommission on his part. McCloy, who had used information about the travel of German agents during WWI, to break the Black Tom Case did not press the CIA to uncover exactly how Lee Harvey Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki although passenger lists were available in 1964. Why did he allow this ommission if he were truely investigating the assassination and the potential for a conspiracy? McCloy had the athority to find out whom Oswald traveled with toward Helsinki. He failed to do so. McCloy had the ability to track the Hosty note and find out exactly who knew where Oswald was working before the assassination. He failed to do so. McCloy should have known that Oswald attempted to contact a person named John Hurt after the assassination. McCloy should also have known that Frank Rowlett, a man that McCloy worked with during WWII, was associated with John B. Hurt, a man who had provided McCloy with information during WWII. But once again McCloy failed to enter this information that he had unique knowledge of into the official record of the assassination." "Press Conference #1, January 25, 1961 President John F. Kennedy State Department Auditorium Washington, D. C . 6:00 p.m., EST 418 In attendance THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. Won't you be seated. I have several announcements to make, first. I have a statement about the Geneva negotiations for an atomic test ban. These negotiations, as you know, are scheduled to begin early in February. They are of great importance, and we will need more time to prepare a clear American position. So we are consulting with other governments, and we are asking to have it put off until late March. As you know, Mr. John McCloy is my principal adviser in this field, and he has organized a distinguished panel of experts, headed by Dr. James Fisk of the Bell Laboratories -- and Mr. Salinger will have a list of the names at the end of the conference -- who are going to study previous positions that we have taken in this field, and also recommend to Mr. McCloy, for my guidance, what our position would be in late March, when we hope the tests will resume. Is it a coincidence that after McCloy is relieved as arms negotiator in 1963 a new president happens again and McCloy is once again the new Presidents principal adviser?" Some older thoughts Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Jim, could you give a moments thought to my post, please. Do you have any information on that issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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