Evan Burton

The fall of Israel?

42 posts in this topic

Google is your friend.

Well well, is that the BEST you can do? A few wiki links? Pretty weak stuff. Reality bites you again. I'm not suprised however given the weakness of your position.

But Of course I'm fully aware of what was aboard the Mavi Marmara, and the rest of the so called "humanitarian flotilla" and exactly how much Hamas allowed to pass into gaza. And it's no secret about Egypt. But then again Egypt is not the evil Israel.

I asked because I KNEW. What a great way to expose your weakness on this issue.

So your 'feel good" bleeding heart spills unto the floor, busted wide open by a good dose of reality.

Reality really does bite!

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Well well, is that the BEST you can do? A few wiki links?

What were you expecting me to do, book you a trip to Gaza so that you could open your eyes?

Pretty weak stuff.

It doesn't help your endless efforts to justify the raid, does it?

Reality bites you again.

Keep talking, maybe someday you'll say something of substance.

I'm not suprised however given the weakness of your position.

Poor evaluation skills on your part -again.

But Of course I'm fully aware of what was aboard the Mavi Marmara, and the rest of the so called "humanitarian flotilla" and exactly how much Hamas allowed to pass into gaza.

You seem pretty unaware of anything related to Gaza. And it's not a shock.

And it's no secret about Egypt. But then again Egypt is not the evil Israel.

The subject of this thread is the attack on the flotilla, not Egypt

Besides, I have always argued that Egypt should open the border unconditionally and do whatever it can to help Gaza.

So, your attempts to read my mind fail -again.

I asked because I KNEW.

You have demonstrated successfully that you know nothing about the issue during the course of this thread.

All you know is to cheer for Israel and you think that will make a strong position.

What a great way to expose your weakness on this issue.

Boring, as usual. Try again.

So your 'feel good" bleeding heart spills unto the floor, busted wide open by a good dose of reality.

Unfortunately for you, your whining about the criticisms directed at Israel only makes you look more ignorant.

Reality really does bite!

Your motto is not going to change the facts, no matter how many times you repeat it.

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Well well, is that the BEST you can do? A few wiki links?

What were you expecting me to do, book you a trip to Gaza so that you could open your eyes?

craig = purple. No I was expecting you to answer the questions honestly. Instead you give us a few weak links. However maybe a trip to Gaza might open your tightly closed eyes.

Pretty weak stuff.

It doesn't help your endless efforts to justify the raid, does it?

Justify the raid? Please show me where I have attempted to justify the raid. Once again you have shown you are living in an alternmative reality. Thanks

Reality bites you again.

Keep talking, maybe someday you'll say something of substance.

You can't deal with substance, witness you inability to deal directly with the "humanitarian cargo" on the Mavi Marmara.

I'm not suprised however, given the weakness of your position.

Poor evaluation skills on your part -again.

Really? Tell us again about the Mavi Marmara...

But Of course I'm fully aware of what was aboard the Mavi Marmara, and the rest of the so called "humanitarian flotilla" and exactly how much Hamas allowed to pass into gaza.

You seem pretty unaware of anything related to Gaza. And it's not a shock.

Yea..right. Tell us about that wonderful relief ship the Mavi Marmara again.

And it's no secret about Egypt. But then again Egypt is not the evil Israel.

The subject of this thread is the attack on the flotilla, not Egypt

Really, I thought it was about getting humanitarian aid that being withheld by Hamas to those poor people in Gaza. Oh wait, there was the point about you being taken in by the alternative reality of what this "flotilla was really about. My bad.

Besides, I have always argued that Egypt should open the border unconditionally and do whatever it can to help Gaza.

Have you condemned them like you have Israel? Of course they are not the big bad jooos...

So, your attempts to read my mind fail -again.

No reading your mind, only your words. Point me to your past condemnation of Egypt with the same intensity as Israel.

I asked because I KNEW.

You have demonstrated successfully that you know nothing about the issue during the course of this thread.

Really? Please be so kind as to point point out the exact passages.

All you know is to cheer for Israel and you think that will make a strong position.

Cheer for Israel? Again, please point out my cheering.

What a great way to expose your weakness on this issue.

Boring, as usual. Try again.

Sadly, for you, the truth may be boring, but its the truth regardless.

So your 'feel good" bleeding heart spills unto the floor, busted wide open by a good dose of reality.

Unfortunately for you, your whining about the criticisms directed at Israel only makes you look more ignorant.

I'm whining? I don't care who you are, thats FUNNY! Thanks for the grins.

Reality really does bite!

Your motto is not going to change the facts, no matter how many times you repeat it.

And what facts would that be?

Edited by Craig Lamson

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ISRAEL

Where is so much arrogance and impunity leading?

Elsa Claro

TEL Aviv states that Israel is the only democracy in the whole of the Middle East. If that was the case, there would more than enough reasons not to propose duplicating a system which has turned (almost) the entire world against it, as President Shimon Peres states; whether playing the misunderstood victim card or using a sterile alibi for despicable acts in any language, religion or philosophy, I do not know.

The United States and Europe share much blame. If the Israeli authorities ever imagined that those two centers of world power would seriously and harshly reproach them, they would not have committed the multiple assassination of the humanitarian group transporting aid to the blockaded inhabitants of Gaza.

The conduct of the Israeli assault commandos was disgraceful. They fired on a group that included a young Turkish-American, an elderly man of over 90 and the archbishop of Jerusalem, and crushed the skulls of various flotilla members, as autopsies reveal. Their sudden incursion left behind badly injured unarmed pacifists and an unconfirmed number of people were thrown overboard (it is not known whether they were already dead or still alive). All of that confirms the adoption of a mentality and procedure typical of those accustomed to outrages.

That is confirmed by the perspective of Sicham Leventallos, a young member of the Israeli NGO Breaking the Silence. Passing judgment on the abovementioned event, he commented, "The most serious part is that it isn’t an isolated case. What is serious is the ‘normality’ of those acts of force. A normality in which Palestinians have no rights. I have a home; I know that nobody is going to enter it. The Palestinians do not. Sometimes a commander orders troops to enter a house at night because he feels like it. So that nobody forgets who’s in charge. And we don’t go in knocking at the door with a smile, but with weapons, with blows, with searches, shouting and kickings. So that they learn."

The NGO to which Sicham belongs is made up of ex-recruits who, after completing their military service, decided to expose the unrestrained and abusive actions of the Israeli government that take place on a daily basis against the Palestinians. "Depriving them of their rights and dignity doesn’t make us any better," says the activist, for whom "the occupation has a price," and provoking fear in others generates in its turn fear and baseness in those who practice it without questioning its morality.

For years, Israel has been seizing ships in international waters between Cyprus and the Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers; sometimes transferring them afterward to Israeli jails, including secret prisons/torture chambers, and holding them as hostages for many years, according to Noam Chomsky, the eminent linguist resident in the United States (a country that he accuses of permitting what Israel does). Chomsky is also a political scientist of Jewish origin and, in spite of that and the international recognition that he enjoys as a respected academic, his entry into the West Bank, where he was scheduled to give various lectures, was vetoed by the Israeli authorities.

One of the pretexts wielded by Netanyahu’s government to justify its assault on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is that it was transporting materials it suspected were to be used to build bunkers for rockets. Leaving to one side that absurd argument, Chomsky emphasized that if Israel was really interested in stopping the homemade rockets of the Palestinian organization Hamas, it knows exactly what to do: to accept the offers of a ceasefire. In that context, the professor recalls that, in June 2008, Israel and Hamas agreed a truce of that kind. "The Israeli government formally acknowledges that even when Israel broke that agreement on November 4 by invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas members, these did not fire a single rocket."

Hamas offered a similar armistice after that – Chomsky states – and the Israeli government rejected the offer, "preferring to launch its murderous and destructive Operation Cast Lead on December 27 (2008). It had imposed a blockade on Gaza in 2006, a move also intended to punish the "boldness" of the maltreated people in electing Hamas members as their legitimate representatives. It is not only a penitence, it is part of the plan for separating Gaza from the West Bank, other specialists note.

After visiting that slice of territory blockaded by land and sea, various South African politicians affirmed that what has been imposed on the inhabitants of Gaza could be considered worse than apartheid itself. That is a qualified opinion and gives a measure of the punishment imposed, and what moves "right-wing, left-wing, liberals, conservatives, atheists, Islamists, Muslims, Christians, Jews and Buddhists from all parts of the world to send medicine, foodstuffs and building materials," according to Bülent Yildirim, president of the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), organizer of the flotilla. It is an NGO with a wide-ranging brief: it went to the aid of the Katrina victims in the United States, those left homeless by the earthquakes in Italy, Greece and Haiti and has taken aid to Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia and a number of African states.

AGAINST THE MARMARA?

The lukewarm attitude of the Obama administration, faithful to the U.S. postulate of covering Israel’s back in every eventuality, has reached the extreme of not even demanding a reliable investigation into the action perpetrated outside of its territorial waters and, thus in violation international law to the same extreme.

According to information available to date, the idea is to create a commission made up of Israelis or Israelis with a U.S. guarantor, in spite of the UN proposal of a commission of experts from various countries in search of a neutral objectivity in terms of investigating the Israeli action.

Given that, from the outset, the Benjamin Netanyahu government has attempted to distort the character of the flotilla members, accusing them of having links with Al Qaeda or even of being terrorists, and now has their boats in its power, thus allowing for further manipulations, it is evidently impossible to accept any kind of serious Israeli self-investigation, shaped from the beginning by criteria in part directed to its own Jewish population, to whom the government has to justify its acts of aggression by affirming that it was defending itself from an "external threat." The official political decisions concerning the disastrous assault would remain buried in the most fainthearted explanation.

And above all, concealing factors like those exposed by certain sources with a chilling piece of information: the elite troops who stormed the flotilla of unarmed volunteers took with them a list of 16 previously sentenced people, all of them outstanding activists in defending the rights of the Palestinian people.

If that is confirmed, it would provide another basis for Israel being brought to trial, as proposed by some brigade members who, initially, are to bring charges of piracy and the murder of at least 10 civilians against Israel. The success of that can be doubted in advance, given the almost total silence on the part of the maximum leaders – seasoned or new – of the most powerful nations. The protesting has been passionately taken up by different populations. Voices of stature acting in the same way are lacking.

If there is something that is in no doubt whatsoever, it is the rejection being accumulated by Israel and the slim margin left to its protectors, excessively tolerant toward this aggressive partner that they are continuing to shield, maybe to conceal their own guilt, similar to that of such a seasoned pupil.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/international-i/10junio-23flotilla.html

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Propaganda? really?

ISRAEL

Where is so much arrogance and impunity leading?

Elsa Claro

TEL Aviv states that Israel is the only democracy in the whole of the Middle East. If that was the case, there would more than enough reasons not to propose duplicating a system which has turned (almost) the entire world against it, as President Shimon Peres states; whether playing the misunderstood victim card or using a sterile alibi for despicable acts in any language, religion or philosophy, I do not know.

The United States and Europe share much blame. If the Israeli authorities ever imagined that those two centers of world power would seriously and harshly reproach them, they would not have committed the multiple assassination of the humanitarian group transporting aid to the blockaded inhabitants of Gaza.

The conduct of the Israeli assault commandos was disgraceful. They fired on a group that included a young Turkish-American, an elderly man of over 90 and the archbishop of Jerusalem, and crushed the skulls of various flotilla members, as autopsies reveal. Their sudden incursion left behind badly injured unarmed pacifists and an unconfirmed number of people were thrown overboard (it is not known whether they were already dead or still alive). All of that confirms the adoption of a mentality and procedure typical of those accustomed to outrages.

That is confirmed by the perspective of Sicham Leventallos, a young member of the Israeli NGO Breaking the Silence. Passing judgment on the abovementioned event, he commented, "The most serious part is that it isn’t an isolated case. What is serious is the ‘normality’ of those acts of force. A normality in which Palestinians have no rights. I have a home; I know that nobody is going to enter it. The Palestinians do not. Sometimes a commander orders troops to enter a house at night because he feels like it. So that nobody forgets who’s in charge. And we don’t go in knocking at the door with a smile, but with weapons, with blows, with searches, shouting and kickings. So that they learn."

The NGO to which Sicham belongs is made up of ex-recruits who, after completing their military service, decided to expose the unrestrained and abusive actions of the Israeli government that take place on a daily basis against the Palestinians. "Depriving them of their rights and dignity doesn’t make us any better," says the activist, for whom "the occupation has a price," and provoking fear in others generates in its turn fear and baseness in those who practice it without questioning its morality.

For years, Israel has been seizing ships in international waters between Cyprus and the Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers; sometimes transferring them afterward to Israeli jails, including secret prisons/torture chambers, and holding them as hostages for many years, according to Noam Chomsky, the eminent linguist resident in the United States (a country that he accuses of permitting what Israel does). Chomsky is also a political scientist of Jewish origin and, in spite of that and the international recognition that he enjoys as a respected academic, his entry into the West Bank, where he was scheduled to give various lectures, was vetoed by the Israeli authorities.

One of the pretexts wielded by Netanyahu’s government to justify its assault on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is that it was transporting materials it suspected were to be used to build bunkers for rockets. Leaving to one side that absurd argument, Chomsky emphasized that if Israel was really interested in stopping the homemade rockets of the Palestinian organization Hamas, it knows exactly what to do: to accept the offers of a ceasefire. In that context, the professor recalls that, in June 2008, Israel and Hamas agreed a truce of that kind. "The Israeli government formally acknowledges that even when Israel broke that agreement on November 4 by invading Gaza and killing half a dozen Hamas members, these did not fire a single rocket."

Hamas offered a similar armistice after that – Chomsky states – and the Israeli government rejected the offer, "preferring to launch its murderous and destructive Operation Cast Lead on December 27 (2008). It had imposed a blockade on Gaza in 2006, a move also intended to punish the "boldness" of the maltreated people in electing Hamas members as their legitimate representatives. It is not only a penitence, it is part of the plan for separating Gaza from the West Bank, other specialists note.

After visiting that slice of territory blockaded by land and sea, various South African politicians affirmed that what has been imposed on the inhabitants of Gaza could be considered worse than apartheid itself. That is a qualified opinion and gives a measure of the punishment imposed, and what moves "right-wing, left-wing, liberals, conservatives, atheists, Islamists, Muslims, Christians, Jews and Buddhists from all parts of the world to send medicine, foodstuffs and building materials," according to Bülent Yildirim, president of the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), organizer of the flotilla. It is an NGO with a wide-ranging brief: it went to the aid of the Katrina victims in the United States, those left homeless by the earthquakes in Italy, Greece and Haiti and has taken aid to Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia and a number of African states.

AGAINST THE MARMARA?

The lukewarm attitude of the Obama administration, faithful to the U.S. postulate of covering Israel’s back in every eventuality, has reached the extreme of not even demanding a reliable investigation into the action perpetrated outside of its territorial waters and, thus in violation international law to the same extreme.

According to information available to date, the idea is to create a commission made up of Israelis or Israelis with a U.S. guarantor, in spite of the UN proposal of a commission of experts from various countries in search of a neutral objectivity in terms of investigating the Israeli action.

Given that, from the outset, the Benjamin Netanyahu government has attempted to distort the character of the flotilla members, accusing them of having links with Al Qaeda or even of being terrorists, and now has their boats in its power, thus allowing for further manipulations, it is evidently impossible to accept any kind of serious Israeli self-investigation, shaped from the beginning by criteria in part directed to its own Jewish population, to whom the government has to justify its acts of aggression by affirming that it was defending itself from an "external threat." The official political decisions concerning the disastrous assault would remain buried in the most fainthearted explanation.

And above all, concealing factors like those exposed by certain sources with a chilling piece of information: the elite troops who stormed the flotilla of unarmed volunteers took with them a list of 16 previously sentenced people, all of them outstanding activists in defending the rights of the Palestinian people.

If that is confirmed, it would provide another basis for Israel being brought to trial, as proposed by some brigade members who, initially, are to bring charges of piracy and the murder of at least 10 civilians against Israel. The success of that can be doubted in advance, given the almost total silence on the part of the maximum leaders – seasoned or new – of the most powerful nations. The protesting has been passionately taken up by different populations. Voices of stature acting in the same way are lacking.

If there is something that is in no doubt whatsoever, it is the rejection being accumulated by Israel and the slim margin left to its protectors, excessively tolerant toward this aggressive partner that they are continuing to shield, maybe to conceal their own guilt, similar to that of such a seasoned pupil.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/international-i/10junio-23flotilla.html

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craig = purple. No I was expecting you to answer the questions honestly. Instead you give us a few weak links. However maybe a trip to Gaza might open your tightly closed eyes.

You got your answer but you chose to dismiss it because it wasn't to your liking.

Justify the raid? Please show me where I have attempted to justify the raid. Once again you have shown you are living in an alternmative reality. Thanks

"yea. IMO the floatilla got exactly what they wanted, a confrontation. Poor martyr's gunned down by the evil Jews, when all tthey had to defend themself with was knives,pipes and deckchairs".

"What"innocents"did Israel kill in this instance?"

You're welcome.

You can't deal with substance, witness you inability to deal directly with the "humanitarian cargo" on the Mavi Marmara.

And people who read this thread witness your inability to comprehend.

Really? Tell us again about the Mavi Marmara...

I already did. You seem to have reading disability.

Yea..right. Tell us about that wonderful relief ship the Mavi Marmara again.

See my previous reply.

Really, I thought it was about getting humanitarian aid that being withheld by Hamas to those poor people in Gaza. Oh wait, there was the point about you being taken in by the alternative reality of what this "flotilla was really about. My bad.

Yes, really.

Have you condemned them like you have Israel? Of course they are not the big bad jooos...

Yes, I have...many times.

No reading your mind, only your words. Point me to your past condemnation of Egypt with the same intensity as Israel.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't record my conversations. Open a thread about Egypt and I'll share my opinions on the subject there.

Really? Please be so kind as to point point out the exact passages.

Yes, really. Go back and reread your posts.

Cheer for Israel? Again, please point out my cheering.

Go back and reread your posts.

Sadly, for you, the truth may be boring, but its the truth regardless.

Yawn.

I'm whining? I don't care who you are, thats FUNNY! Thanks for the grins.

Was that supposed to offend me? laugh.gif

Get over yourself.

And what facts would that be?

Do your homework.

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Don't know what you mean Cigdem. Sounds kinda rhetorical, but remember that I'm a person with a small brain. Could you elaborate? Please.

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craig = purple. No I was expecting you to answer the questions honestly. Instead you give us a few weak links. However maybe a trip to Gaza might open your tightly closed eyes.

You got your answer but you chose to dismiss it because it wasn't to your liking.

No, they RE-ENFORCE my position and destroy yours. I'm not suprised you fail to understand this simple point. It speaks volumes that you can't discuss these point directly.

Justify the raid? Please show me where I have attempted to justify the raid. Once again you have shown you are living in an alternmative reality. Thanks

"yea. IMO the floatilla got exactly what they wanted, a confrontation. Poor martyr's gunned down by the evil Jews, when all tthey had to defend themself with was knives,pipes and deckchairs".

"What"innocents"did Israel kill in this instance?"

You consider that my "justification"? I state my opinion on the desired result of the GAZA flotilla and you take that as some form of justification for the raid? Talk about cognitive impairment. You need a good dose of reality. Israel was dumb as a box of rocks to do what they did, they played DIRECTLY into the hands of the terrorists aboard the flotilla.

You're welcome.

You can't deal with substance, witness you inability to deal directly with the "humanitarian cargo" on the Mavi Marmara.

And people who read this thread witness your inability to comprehend.

So deal directly with the "humanitarian cargo" on the Mavi Marmana. I fully comprehend there was exactly NONE, do you? So what WAS the cargo of the Mavi Marmana? Can you comprehend that?

Really? Tell us again about the Mavi Marmana...

I already did. You seem to have reading disability.

No you "told me nothing" you pointed to a link. Cat got your tongue? So I'll ask again and ask you for a DIRECT answer. What WAS the cargo of the Mavi Marmana

Yea..right. Tell us about that wonderful relief ship the Mavi Marmara again.

See my previous reply.

I did, it was an empty comment. Now how about answering the question directly?

Really, I thought it was about getting humanitarian aid that being withheld by Hamas to those poor people in Gaza. Oh wait, there was the point about you being taken in by the alternative reality of what this "flotilla was really about. My bad.

Yes, really.

Yea really, it is about the flotilla.. sure.. Did YOU write this?

What the Pirates of the Mediterranean did to the flotilla was not any different than what they have been doing in Gaza for years.

I blame them for the blockade in Gaza that makes the civilians fight for an aspirin or a loaf of bread,

I blame them for all the suffering they cause in Palestine and I blame them for murdering the children of Gaza each and everyday without blinking an eye.

Try to see the big picture, not just the flotilla incident

YOU took the conversation beyond the flotilla. Wow, you fail.

Have you condemned them like you have Israel? Of course they are not the big bad jooos...

Yes, I have...many times.

Great, show us.

No reading your mind, only your words. Point me to your past condemnation of Egypt with the same intensity as Israel.

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't record my conversations. Open a thread about Egypt and I'll share my opinions on the subject there.

So show us your past words? Given your convictions on the subject surely you have other posts that support your claims. Lets see them.

Really? Please be so kind as to point point out the exact passages.

Yes, really. Go back and reread your posts.

Prove it, its YOUR claim.

Cheer for Israel? Again, please point out my cheering.

Go back and reread your posts.

I have..your claim, provide the PROOF. Your words are now meaningless.

Sadly, for you, the truth may be boring, but its the truth regardless.

Yawn.

Please, yawn to your hearts content.

I'm whining? I don't care who you are, thats FUNNY! Thanks for the grins.

Was that supposed to offend me? laugh.gif

Get over yourself.

Of course not, I was admiring your humor. Maybe its YOU who needs to "get over yourself"

And what facts would that be?

Do your homework.

Oh no, I'm quite fine on the homework front. Why not just answer the question.

Edited by Craig Lamson

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Spirited debate is encouraged; a heated debate sometimes leads to people saying things they later regret.

Just a reminder for everyone.

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No, they RE-ENFORCE my position and destroy yours. I'm not suprised you fail to understand this simple point. It speaks volumes that you can't discuss these point directly.

I answered your questions even before you started asking them.

The cargo of the flotilla has been addressed twice in the links I posted. But you keep ignoring it because you don't like it.

What you understand from debate is bullying .Unfortunately, It's not going to work this time.

Your arguments are baseless and you're nothing but a waste of time.

Edited by Cigdem Göle

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No, they RE-ENFORCE my position and destroy yours. I'm not suprised you fail to understand this simple point. It speaks volumes that you can't discuss these point directly.

I answered your questions even before you started asking them.

The cargo of the flotilla has been addressed twice in the links I posted. But you keep ignoring it because you don't like it.

What you understand from debate is bullying .Unfortunately, It's not going to work this time.

Your arguments are baseless and you're nothing but a waste of time.

I really do like this line...

"I answered your questions even before you started asking them."

You have a real habit of making statements that just are not true. Not a good way to be for an "educator". But lets give you a chance to prove yourself correct. Show us exactly where you "answered the questions before I started asking them".

But you see I've ignored nothing, you did not "address" anything, you simply posted a few links. Thats not debate, thats a cop out. Of course thats your only option. You can't actually discuss the cargo because it destroys your position that the flotillia was formed to deliver "humanitarian aid". Nothing could be further from the truth. The flotilla was nothing but a political statement, designed and executed to sucker in bleeding hearts. And you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The "cargo" of all the ships is the evidence that destroys your claim of "humanitarian aid"

Of course you can't discuss the cargo of the flotilla directly, to do so would unmask you.

You did however get one thing correct...

Your arguments are baseless and you're nothing but a waste of time.

Edited by Craig Lamson

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Israel's actions regarding the flotilla are raising the spectre of an imminent war in the Middle East:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10337041.stm

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