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The Three Tramps


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How are they necessary to any assassination scenario?

That remains to be determined, like so much in this case.

On this page from Weberman's site, about 3/4ths of the way down

http://ajweberman.com/images_other/index.htm

this caption appears: "A sketch of the assassin of Martin Luther King and the CHRIST tramp." (BTW I am not persuaded that Christ is Frenchy)

I am unable to post the images, but I think anyone who checks it out will be struck by the resemblance between "Frenchy" and the guy in the King sketch. So these "tramp" photos may be important not only in the JFK case, but also in solving the King assassination. And I have no doubt that the guy in the King sketch is NOT Harold Doyle.

But the man of the moment is Howard Hunt. I am 99.9% certain that Hunt is the oldman tramp, and Hunt's eldest son is similarly convinced. To my aging eyes, the La Fontaine candidate for oldman tramp has big cauliflower ears, unlike the ears on the oldman tramp and unlike the ears of Howard Hunt.

Jim Di Eugenio suggests that researchers risk being ridiculed if we pursue this issue. Jim is undoubtedly correct if he is referring to outfits like the New York Times, but his concern appears to be unwarranted if we are talking about Rolling Stone Magazine.

Well said, Raymond.

It's hard to believe that the older man isn't Hunt, who has admitted he was in DP on 11-22-63.

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Karl: Having listened to the Garrison-Carson confrontation, to segregate out JG trying to show the photo is to misrepresent what happened.

Carson had clearly been briefed in advance on the case. Garrison said he had cards he was following. If you listen to the show, Garrison could not get anything out which Carson did not contest about the JFK case.

Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties...

regards

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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The tramps are a single thread in the fabric of evidence.

They should not be discarded for lack of importance, since we do not know their significance.

If the thread ever becomes unraveled, it may add to our understanding of the assassination, and may not.

But PLEASE...do not dismiss them as insignificant. Their significance is still unknown.

Jack

I don't know their identities, but they are an intriguing trio.

WHEN DID YOU ARRIVE IN DALLAS?

John Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92: They got into Dallas on November 21st and had no place to stay. They stayed for the night and part of the next day.

WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT KENNEDY HAD BEEN SHOT?

Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92): They “heard about President Kennedy getting shot and then they left the Salvation Army wanting to “catch out”.

WERE THE TRAMPS CLEAN OR DIRTY?

Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot.

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992. He was later assigned as a Detective in the Forgery Division.

“Chambers described the hobos as “dirty”. Chambers noted that they were not wearing socks and their clothes did not appear to be clean”

(Original documents ascribed these comments to Jones. Jones was scratched out and Chambers inserted.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department on 3/6/92

“Wise described the men as dirty and smelly. He indicated the pictures of them do not do them justice. Wise explained that you had to look closely at the pictures to recognize just how dirty the three were”.

WHAT KIND OF RAILROAD CAR WERE YOU ON WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

Bill Bass (FBI) 6/15/92: “a grain car.”

Marvin Wise 3/6/92: Wise was told that the three men climbed into a coal car.

John Gedney FBI 2/26/92 “Gedney said that he thought they were lying on big sheets of steel on a flatbed railroad car when the police came over with guns, said don’t move and then arrested them and took them over to the Dallas City jail.

Harold Doyle FBI 2/20/92 “They then got on a gondola, also known as a coal car, and were heading towards Fort Worth, when the train was stopped.”

Doyle and Gedney’s arrest record: "These men were taken off a train boxcar in the rail yards right after President Kennedy as shot,"

William Chambers: When questioned the three individuals said they were “on a freight car sleeping.”

WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

William Chambers: “When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Marvin Wise told the FBI: He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD. “He was sitting in his car and a man working in the railroad building waved at him. Wise and another officer (name forgotten) were told by the man that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. Wise, in company with Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton (although Middleton denies that he was there) went to the boxcars and took the men of the boxcar”.

So were they freshly showered, or were they dirty and smelly?

Did they learn of JFK's assassination before they left the Salvation Army, or afterwards?

Were they in a coal car, or on a flatbed freight car?

Did they walk to the police station, or were they driven?

The arrest records for Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney say that they were taken off a train boxcar right after the President was shot, but the arrest record gives the time of arrest as 4:00PM - nearly 3 ½ hours later.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations on November 14, 1977 at 9:00AM at Dallas Police Headquarters. HSCA 180-10112 10156. Wise was a Dallas Policeman on November 22, 1963 and assigned to District #71 Radio Patrol in south Dallas. Wise on a robbery call at the far end of south Dallas when the dispatcher told #71 to go Code 3 to the TSBD and report to the supervisor. (According to the Dispatch Tapes of Channel 1, Wise reported his location at 12:38pm)

12:38 DIS: 71, robbery of an individual, 2205 Cockrell. 12:38.

At approximately 12:42pm, 71 reported his location as Corinth and Harwood:

DIS: 71.

71: Corinth and Harwood.

DIS: Code 3.

Many squads were being instructed at this point to proceed to Elm and Houston Code 3.

He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD.

Wise stated that the men acted scared and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise took the men over to the Sheriff’s Office, and while waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identification. Wise stated that he believes that two of the men had documented ID’s. He wrote the ID’s down on a piece of paper and put them in his hat. “He turned the men over to the Sheriff’s Office (Deputy name unknown), ( I believe this Deputy to be Harold Elkins) and went back to his radio”. He heard over the police radio that a policeman had been shot, and a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit”.

Notice the timing. The tramps have been picked up and are in the station when Wise hears about Tippit. (Officially, Tippit was shot at approximately 1:16pm)

I believe, with William Chambers, that they were, in fact, arrested twice, once by the Dallas County Sheriff's office, and a second time by the Dallas City Police Department.

Steve Thomas

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Carson opposed having Garrison on his show, and did as much as he could to diminish him that night - possibly because of JG's notoriety and smeared reputation, and aside from any pressure from NBC and its owners. It was NBC that insisted that Carson have JG on.

But when Garrison pulled out the Three Tramps photo, Carson's immediate concern and primal fear might have been that he and NBC could be sued by the subjects in the pictures. So cutting the presentation at that point may have been for legal worries rather than conspiracy cover-up.

The complicating, unexpected photo was probably the straw that snapped the whole enterprise for Johnny.

Edited by David Andrews
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Karl: Having listened to the Garrison-Carson confrontation, to segregate out JG trying to show the photo is to misrepresent what happened.

Carson had clearly been briefed in advance on the case. Garrison said he had cards he was following. If you listen to the show, Garrison could not get anything out which Carson did not contest about the JFK case.

Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties...

regards

KK

Hey, does anybody have video of Garrison's Carson appearance?

I wish I would have one. I took the story from Garrisons book "On the trail of the assassins."

LKK

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Here's the link to an AUDIO ONLY multi-part upload on YouTube. The Carson estate probably has the video locked down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-za5aMy4w

UPDATE: This is not the version I listened to within the last year, in which the audio ran all the way to the Three Tramps photo and the cutoff of the interview. This Von Pein upload ends before the famous cutoff...

If I can find complete audio again, I'll post the link.

Edited by David Andrews
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Ray,

Steve: Can you please point us to where we can find the FBI reports etc. quoted in your post?

I got them off Denis Morissette's web page, but when I just went to copy the url it tells me that that page is no longer available.

He had a treasure trove of documents relating to the three tramps.

The last email address I had for him was: denismorissette@yahoo.com

Steve

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You can find Denis Morissette's documents here:

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/documents

Thank you Steve, this is greatly appreciated.

The La Fontaine's are OBVIOUSLY a pair of chancers, and I submit that the "tramp" issue is potentially a VERY fruitful area of research for anyone SERIOUSLY and SCRUPULOUSLY interested in resolving this case. It is a dead issue only to those interested in playing ego games.

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  • 9 years later...
On 7/26/2010 at 12:49 PM, Steve Thomas said:

I don't know their identities, but they are an intriguing trio.

WHEN DID YOU ARRIVE IN DALLAS?

John Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92: They got into Dallas on November 21st and had no place to stay. They stayed for the night and part of the next day.

WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT KENNEDY HAD BEEN SHOT?

Gedney (FBI) 2/26/92): They “heard about President Kennedy getting shot and then they left the Salvation Army wanting to “catch out”.

WERE THE TRAMPS CLEAN OR DIRTY?

Both commented that they had gotten fresh clothes, showered, shaved and had a meal. They headed back to the railroad yard when they heard all the commotion and sirens and everything, and they asked what happened. They were told the president had been shot.

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992. He was later assigned as a Detective in the Forgery Division.

“Chambers described the hobos as “dirty”. Chambers noted that they were not wearing socks and their clothes did not appear to be clean”

(Original documents ascribed these comments to Jones. Jones was scratched out and Chambers inserted.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department on 3/6/92

“Wise described the men as dirty and smelly. He indicated the pictures of them do not do them justice. Wise explained that you had to look closely at the pictures to recognize just how dirty the three were”.

WHAT KIND OF RAILROAD CAR WERE YOU ON WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

Bill Bass (FBI) 6/15/92: “a grain car.”

Marvin Wise 3/6/92: Wise was told that the three men climbed into a coal car.

John Gedney FBI 2/26/92 “Gedney said that he thought they were lying on big sheets of steel on a flatbed railroad car when the police came over with guns, said don’t move and then arrested them and took them over to the Dallas City jail.

Harold Doyle FBI 2/20/92 “They then got on a gondola, also known as a coal car, and were heading towards Fort Worth, when the train was stopped.”

Doyle and Gedney’s arrest record: "These men were taken off a train boxcar in the rail yards right after President Kennedy as shot,"

William Chambers: When questioned the three individuals said they were “on a freight car sleeping.”

WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

William Chambers: “When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Marvin Wise told the FBI: He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD. “He was sitting in his car and a man working in the railroad building waved at him. Wise and another officer (name forgotten) were told by the man that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. Wise, in company with Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton (although Middleton denies that he was there) went to the boxcars and took the men of the boxcar”.

So were they freshly showered, or were they dirty and smelly?

Did they learn of JFK's assassination before they left the Salvation Army, or afterwards?

Were they in a coal car, or on a flatbed freight car?

Did they walk to the police station, or were they driven?

The arrest records for Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney say that they were taken off a train boxcar right after the President was shot, but the arrest record gives the time of arrest as 4:00PM - nearly 3 ½ hours later.

Marvin Wise was interviewed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations on November 14, 1977 at 9:00AM at Dallas Police Headquarters. HSCA 180-10112 10156. Wise was a Dallas Policeman on November 22, 1963 and assigned to District #71 Radio Patrol in south Dallas. Wise on a robbery call at the far end of south Dallas when the dispatcher told #71 to go Code 3 to the TSBD and report to the supervisor. (According to the Dispatch Tapes of Channel 1, Wise reported his location at 12:38pm)

12:38 DIS: 71, robbery of an individual, 2205 Cockrell. 12:38.

At approximately 12:42pm, 71 reported his location as Corinth and Harwood:

DIS: 71.

71: Corinth and Harwood.

DIS: Code 3.

Many squads were being instructed at this point to proceed to Elm and Houston Code 3.

He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD.

Wise stated that the men acted scared and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise took the men over to the Sheriff’s Office, and while waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identification. Wise stated that he believes that two of the men had documented ID’s. He wrote the ID’s down on a piece of paper and put them in his hat. “He turned the men over to the Sheriff’s Office (Deputy name unknown), ( I believe this Deputy to be Harold Elkins) and went back to his radio”. He heard over the police radio that a policeman had been shot, and a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit”.

Notice the timing. The tramps have been picked up and are in the station when Wise hears about Tippit. (Officially, Tippit was shot at approximately 1:16pm)

I believe, with William Chambers, that they were, in fact, arrested twice, once by the Dallas County Sheriff's office, and a second time by the Dallas City Police Department.

Steve Thomas

Steve was deep on this years ago.  The contradictory statements do give cause for wonder about the tramps.  Were they just a confusing distraction or a legitimate cause for further investigation?  I'd say the latter, until irrelevance is proved.  Which it may never be.

Were they Doyle, Gedney and Abrams or Hunt,  Harrelson and Holt or others?  

If you look really deep here It leads one to  A J Weberman's  story of two set's of tramps.  Since disappeared.  Involving a grain car and a box car.

Then again, Weberman leads one to Dylan's trash, literally.

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This thread from years ago highlights well the contradictions in testimony that in total almost forces one to consider the tramps with more interest than not imo.

And the pictures of the supposed tramps ( Gedny, Doyle, Abrams ) from years later are just as debatable and suspect.

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Wise stated that the men acted scared and he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. Wise took the men over to the Sheriff’s Office, and while waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identification. Wise stated that he believes that two of the men had documented ID’s. He wrote the ID’s down on a piece of paper and put them in his hat. “He turned the men over to the Sheriff’s Office (Deputy name unknown), ( I believe this Deputy to be Harold Elkins) and went back to his radio”. He heard over the police radio that a policeman had been shot, and a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit”.

I believe Steve Thomas is correct on Elkins as per Decker exhibit 5323 Supplementary Investigation Report dated 26th Nov '63.  Warren Hearings & Exhibits v19.p540.

Harold E. Elkins (Deputy, Dallas County Sheriff's Dept.)".....I immediately ran to the area from which it sounded like the shots had been fired.  This is an area between the railroads and the TSBD which is east of the railroads.  There were several other officers in this area and we secured it from the public.  After searching this area for about ten minutes and not finding any evidence, I went to a tower that overlooks the railroad yards and also has a vantage point over the area around the school book building.  I talked to an employee there and he gave me the descriptions of two automobiles that he had seen in the area just a few minutes earlier.  When I went back outside I learned from the other officers that it had been established that the shots were fired from the school building.......A while later a City of Dallas policeman came to our office with three prisoners who he had arrested on the railroad yards.  I took these three to the city jail and turned them over to Capt. Fritz."

Also from Marrs' 'Crossfire'.....In 1981 Kent Biffle, a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, wrote an article detailing his experience that day that pinpointed the tramp arrests as shortly after the assassination: "Everyone was pointing toward a fence that connected with the Underpass....I ran that way.  Some teenagers followed.  One of them darted ahead and hit the fence before I did......Puffing, I followed him.  The other side of the fence revealed no gunmen.  There was just a maze of railroad tracks and three dazed winos.  "What happened?"  I asked one.  "What happened?" He asked me.  People were still climbing over the fence.  I ran east to the Texas School Book Depository."

Like so many other aspects of the assassination, can we ever pick bones out of the 3 tramps mystery?  Still asking "What happened?" 

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Sometimes a side by side comparison is useful in helping to ascertain a true identity. To my eye, it's a no-brainer... Look at the jawline, the chin, mouth shape, upper lip, nose, brow ridge, eyes, earlobes...its the same guy! They were just bums, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. I know lots of folks want to crucify the LaFontaines, most of it deserved...but they did find the arrest reports of the tramps and John Elrod. You can think they're fake or planted, arrested twice, or two sets of tramps...but back it up with some evidence. We have these reports, Doyle and Gedney were interviewed separately, years apart and both corroborated the arrest report. The inconsistencies, such as what train car they were on when arrested can be attributed to many years gone by, and much alcohol abuse.

 

Edited by Rob Clark
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6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

This thread from years ago highlights well the contradictions in testimony that in total almost forces one to consider the tramps with more interest than not imo.

And the pictures of the supposed tramps ( Gedny, Doyle, Abrams ) from years later are just as debatable and suspect.

I tend to disagree, at least in regards to the men in the photos commonly referred to as the three tramps.

I've yet to hear anything which leads me to doubt their identity. I think basically everything they've stated, and the stories as they relate to them are largely accurate. I do believe it's possible there were other people in the rail yards and their reports were intentionally mixed with these to create confusion, but I nonetheless believe these guys were arrested in the rail yards and were held in jail for a few days.

Before we assign conspiracy to every discrepancy related to the men, I believe it's important to keep in mind the amount of sheer unprofessional behavior and inconsistency of both the S.O. and P.D. that day. Numerous witnesses names weren't even collected, much less their accounts. Numerous instances exist of "irregularities" during questioning (least of which is no tape or notes for Oswald's interrogation). The list truly goes on for quite some time. I believe it's important to keep all of this in mind when considering the eventualities of how the paperwork and other information related to these men was handled. I'm not saying any of this rules out conspiracy or "funny business" when it comes to the tramps, but it doesn't automatically point to conspiracy or "funny business" either.

While this is only halfway joking, maybe there was some sort of concerted "effort" to just be horrible police that day. At least then, no single irregular instance could be singled out and examined. Almost everything that occurred that day was irregular when it comes to police procedure.

I believe at best there was nothing really to hide regarding the rail yards and their stories are what they say they are, and at worse there were other people found in the rail yards and their stories were intentionally melded with the tramps to hide or obfuscate events which actually transpired. I believe the latter theory helps account for discrepancies in their clothing, etc. If you look at good photos of the walk across Dealey Plaza, those men are clearly wearing stained and dirty clothes.

I also believe it's important to remember the same thing we say about every other witness, the passage of time between when the events occurred and when the statements were given. If these guys were what we'd call "hobos, tramps, and winos" I'd expect their memory of events to be about as bad as it could be, especially considering that one or more of them were drinking that day and may have even been drunk at the time (Abrams for instance I believe is clearly wasted). On a personal note, I've been arrested (a lot)

With all that being said.

Harold Doyle....I believe the photos are about as close as one can be. Granted, I have no formal training in photo analysis and this is just my opinion, but look....

tramps4.gif

While I don't draw much conclusion from the photo above (this is clearly from a video, why not get a still with similar expressions, intentionally muddy the issue?)....

These photos...

tramps4.jpgtramps3.jpg

Do bear a striking resemblance to "Frenchy."

Gus Abrams, really...just look at him...I also believe if you look at his forehead under his hat you can see that weird curve up in his hairline in the center area of his forehead, it may just be lighting as well but look and make your own opinion...

tramps3.gif

Abrams_My_Website.jpg

Gedney

Gedney_My_website.jpg

 

There are other photos, I should be working though so I didn't have much time to get better links.

As of now the only person with any information I've yet to hear has been Larry Hancock. I plan on looking into his comments regarding Bowers and what he saw regarding arrests. Which, if correct would negate almost all rail stories and tramps theories. According to what I understand regarding Bowers comments, not only were the tramps not arrested that day, he didn't see anyone arrested. If that's true, almost everything we think we know about the tramps and related incidents would have to be reconsidered in light of the new evidence.

No information put forth thus far changes my opinions that the men in the photos are the men above. These men bear as much, if not more resemblance than people like Holt, Hunt, Sturgis, Carswell, Crisman, Harrelson, and anyone else I may have left off. Coupled with their stories, for whatever flaws they have, nothing else has yet to convince me.

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