Steve Thomas Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Steve was deep on this years ago. The contradictory statements do give cause for wonder about the tramps. Ron, Many years ago, Denis Morissette had collected a number of FBI interviews of such people as Marvin Wise, William Chambers, Bill Bass, Gedney, Doyle, etc. He put these on a GeoCities server that expired when GeoCities went down in 2009. Mark Stevens located an archived copy of these documents and posted a link to them in the Education Forum Thread, Revisiting The Three Tramps In Dealey Plaza. Here is a link to those documents: https://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/senate/5439/Documents.html These interviews are well worth reading and cross-referencing. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Mark Stevens said: I tend to disagree, at least in regards to the men in the photos commonly referred to as the three tramps. I've yet to hear anything which leads me to doubt their identity. I think basically everything they've stated, and the stories as they relate to them are largely accurate. I do believe it's possible there were other people in the rail yards and their reports were intentionally mixed with these to create confusion, but I nonetheless believe these guys were arrested in the rail yards and were held in jail for a few days. Before we assign conspiracy to every discrepancy related to the men, I believe it's important to keep in mind the amount of sheer unprofessional behavior and inconsistency of both the S.O. and P.D. that day. Numerous witnesses names weren't even collected, much less their accounts. Numerous instances exist of "irregularities" during questioning (least of which is no tape or notes for Oswald's interrogation). The list truly goes on for quite some time. I believe it's important to keep all of this in mind when considering the eventualities of how the paperwork and other information related to these men was handled. I'm not saying any of this rules out conspiracy or "funny business" when it comes to the tramps, but it doesn't automatically point to conspiracy or "funny business" either. While this is only halfway joking, maybe there was some sort of concerted "effort" to just be horrible police that day. At least then, no single irregular instance could be singled out and examined. Almost everything that occurred that day was irregular when it comes to police procedure. I believe at best there was nothing really to hide regarding the rail yards and their stories are what they say they are, and at worse there were other people found in the rail yards and their stories were intentionally melded with the tramps to hide or obfuscate events which actually transpired. I believe the latter theory helps account for discrepancies in their clothing, etc. If you look at good photos of the walk across Dealey Plaza, those men are clearly wearing stained and dirty clothes. I also believe it's important to remember the same thing we say about every other witness, the passage of time between when the events occurred and when the statements were given. If these guys were what we'd call "hobos, tramps, and winos" I'd expect their memory of events to be about as bad as it could be, especially considering that one or more of them were drinking that day and may have even been drunk at the time (Abrams for instance I believe is clearly wasted). On a personal note, I've been arrested (a lot) With all that being said. Harold Doyle....I believe the photos are about as close as one can be. Granted, I have no formal training in photo analysis and this is just my opinion, but look.... While I don't draw much conclusion from the photo above (this is clearly from a video, why not get a still with similar expressions, intentionally muddy the issue?).... These photos... Do bear a striking resemblance to "Frenchy." Gus Abrams, really...just look at him...I also believe if you look at his forehead under his hat you can see that weird curve up in his hairline in the center area of his forehead, it may just be lighting as well but look and make your own opinion... Gedney There are other photos, I should be working though so I didn't have much time to get better links. As of now the only person with any information I've yet to hear has been Larry Hancock. I plan on looking into his comments regarding Bowers and what he saw regarding arrests. Which, if correct would negate almost all rail stories and tramps theories. According to what I understand regarding Bowers comments, not only were the tramps not arrested that day, he didn't see anyone arrested. If that's true, almost everything we think we know about the tramps and related incidents would have to be reconsidered in light of the new evidence. No information put forth thus far changes my opinions that the men in the photos are the men above. These men bear as much, if not more resemblance than people like Holt, Hunt, Sturgis, Carswell, Crisman, Harrelson, and anyone else I may have left off. Coupled with their stories, for whatever flaws they have, nothing else has yet to convince me. I can buy the older Doyle matching the younger man in the Dealey Plaza perp walk photo. But the other two? No. Did Doyle do anything interesting during his army service? He sounded quite inarticulate in his later age interview. I will however, give Doyle his due in his 1963 fashion sense. The man was dressed so stylishly with his knit shirt with upturned collar and nice coat ( both color coordinated ) and perfectly fitting men's jeans. A cool men's fashion look ahead of it's time. He sure doesn't look like a hobo in that perp walk picture. On the contrary, Gus Abrams looks like he's wearing Salvation Army throwaways. Like he mistook the Salvation Army garbage can for their regular clothes bin. Gedney's clothes look like they "could have" come from the Salivation Army bin. Not too poorly matched and they do fit him and his tall frame. These guys all supposedly "cleaned up" at the homeless mission the night before or the morning of the assassination, including showering? Nice help provided there. I guess those places back then even provided grooming items such as razors and toothbrushes? These men didn't look like they carried toiletry accessory bags. And where do rail riding hobos get their haircuts? Frenchy's is darn right sharp. The other's not bad with clean sideburns trim lines. I suppose if the three tramps were really just wrong place/wrong time innocents, the only seriously suspect aspect of their pictures in Dealey Plaza that day is the one that many think shows General Ed Lansdale walking right by them in front of the Texas School Book Depository bldg. Edited July 28, 2020 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stevens Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: I can buy the older Doyle matching the younger man in the Dealey Plaza perp walk photo. But the other two? No. Did Doyle do anything interesting during his army service? He sounded quite inarticulate in his later age interview. I will however, give Doyle his due in his 1963 fashion sense. The man was dressed so stylishly with his knit shirt with upturned collar and nice coat ( both color coordinated ) and perfectly fitting men's jeans. A cool men's fashion look ahead of it's time. He sure doesn't look like a hobo in that perp walk picture. If Doyle dug his clothes out of a Salvation Army bin that day or the night before, he sure had an eye for chic. And it's a compliment to the SA in giving away such nice clothes to the hobos and poor. On the contrary, Gus Abrams looks like he's wearing Salvation Army throwaways. Like he mistook the Salvation Army garbage can for their regular clothes bin. A movie wardrobe department couldn't make a film hobo character look anymore disheveled, ragged and pathetic than Abrams in the Dealey Plaza perp walk. His hat alone looks more "side of the roadway" beat up than the one Jed Clampett wore in the TV series "The Beverly Hillbillies." And what hobo chooses over-sized "white" pants ( that would show every speck of grime and dirt ) while traveling the dusty, oily railroad boxcar circuit ? Even the crumpled paper sack Abrams is clutching looks trash can found. I could see Abram's train riding brotherhood buddies giving him the hobo nickname ..."Disgusting Gus." Gedney's clothes look like they "could have" come from the Salivation Army bin. Not too poorly matched and they do fit him and his tall frame. These guys all supposedly "cleaned up" at the homeless mission the night before or the morning of the assassination, including showering? Nice help provided there. I guess those places back then even provided grooming items such as razors and toothbrushes? These men didn't look like they carried toiletry accessory bags. And where do rail riding hobos get their haircuts? Frenchy's is darn right sharp. The other's not bad with clean sideburns trim lines. I suppose if the three tramps were really just wrong place/wrong time innocents, the only seriously suspect aspect of their pictures in Dealey Plaza that day is the one that many think shows General Ed Lansdale right by them in front of the Texas Schoolbook Depository bldg. I haven't brushed up on all of this in some time so forgive if memory is off on some things. From what I remember, Doyle and Gedney were some kind of migrant worker versus a straight up homeless drunk. From what I also remember, Abrams was more of a homeless drunk. With this in mind I'd imagine Doyle and Gedney would at least make some attempts at getting nicer clothes, to help with jobs. Even a person hiring migrant workers was probably more likely to hire one who wasn't smelly, dirty, and in torn and ragged clothes. I believe Abrams, being the more typical homeless drunk, went about getting money for alcohol in more typical "hobo ways." I'm also not sure if you're familiar with the Salvation Army, or ever had to shop there for clothing, but you would be surprised at what you can find at a Salvation Army. In all honesty, some people go through lengths to not appear as poor as they are. While someone like Abrams may not really care if someone thought they looked like a homeless drunk, Doyle on the other hand might not want to appear as someone living in a boxcar or some form of homeless shelter. The fact that he "popped his collar" would seem to lend credence to this idea. While I think speculation about their appearances is warranted, I believe it's also at least reasonably explained by their individual stories. If they are trying to find work I'd expect them to have a better appearance than a person just trying to get drunk in an alley, or rail car day long. All I'm really saying is that if we are going to consider every reason why their clothes and appearances shouldn't look the way they do, we should also consider reasons why they would. As far as Lansdale goes, I've always felt his identification was dubious, especially considering it was from the rear. Considering the personnel at Dealey Plaza, I don't find anything particularly odd about the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob Clark said: Sometimes a side by side comparison is useful in helping to ascertain a true identity. To my eye, it's a no-brainer... Look at the jawline, the chin, mouth shape, upper lip, nose, brow ridge, eyes, earlobes...its the same guy! They were just bums, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. I know lots of folks want to crucify the LaFontaines, most of it deserved...but they did find the arrest reports of the tramps and John Elrod. You can think they're fake or planted, arrested twice, or two sets of tramps...but back it up with some evidence. We have these reports, Doyle and Gedney were interviewed separately, years apart and both corroborated the arrest report. The inconsistencies, such as what train car they were on when arrested can be attributed to many years gone by, and much alcohol abuse. 7 hours ago, Rob Clark said: Sometimes a side by side comparison is useful in helping to ascertain a true identity. To my eye, it's a no-brainer... Look at the jawline, the chin, mouth shape, upper lip, nose, brow ridge, eyes, earlobes...its the same guy! They were just bums, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. I know lots of folks want to crucify the LaFontaines, most of it deserved...but they did find the arrest reports of the tramps and John Elrod. You can think they're fake or planted, arrested twice, or two sets of tramps...but back it up with some evidence. We have these reports, Doyle and Gedney were interviewed separately, years apart and both corroborated the arrest report. The inconsistencies, such as what train car they were on when arrested can be attributed to many years gone by, and much alcohol abuse. Rob, I believe the stories of the tramps later interviews in general in spite of some discrepancies. One thing I have trouble with though is the arrest time of 4:00 Steve mentioned, doesn't this come from the arrest reports the Fontaine's dug up? I need to dig. What I recall is they were taken off a box car within a half hour or so after the assassination. I really should respond to Steve's 10 year old post regarding this. Edited July 28, 2020 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 6 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: I really should respond to Steve's 10 year old post regarding this. Ron, Doyle and Gedney’s arrest record: "These men were taken off a train boxcar in the rail yards right after President Kennedy was shot," https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190292/m1/1/?q=Gedney William Chambers: “When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station. I would like to point out that it was Sheriff's Deputies who flooded the railroad yards immediately following the assassination. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now