Timing of the assassination

[David Josephs]

David. I think that within your post is a very important key. : Irrespective of Oswalds role, the basic suggestion re timing would apply to any assassin/s. I understand a local public radio station ran an ongoing update of the processions location. The weather ''downtown'' was checked from Lovefield by the SS in deciding to put on or not the bubbletop. Kennedy made a few unexpected stops like getting out and greeting a group of schoolchildren. So there was an unpredictability to the whole thing that only radio communication could deal with. I suppose the q of who were known to be in constant update. There could be 4 sources perhaps. The SS band, the police band, the public radio, a fourth party, independent or tapping. I understand that HD Holmes with 4-5 unnamed persons stationed directly opposite the snipers nest had a radio on as well as phone links. The SS and the police and the radio broadcast. Which would be the most up to date? Would one have to be involved in the transmissions to be part of the conspiracy? I feel there is something to be gained from exploring this and more along this line. It in itself could be the thing that could be agreed on as being a strong indicator that the assassin/s did indeed have confedererates.

thanks John... to elaborate a bit

If we can show that LHO was not on an assassination timeline (bring the rifle, hide it, get to a spot to shoot him, shoot him, etc...) all these other facts about the rifle and pistol are moot. He'd have to either sit and wait at the 6th floor window starting as early as 11:45 (plane was supposed to land at 11:30 and be at the Trade Mart by 12:15)... know exactly when the plane landed and when it was expected to pass the TSBD and ALSO know that no one would be up there at the time.... be in communication with those that did know and would insure no one was in his way.... or not be involved at all, not care when the limo was passing, and be seen anywhere BUT the 6th floor as late as 12:25....

You decide:

We know men were claimed to be seen between 12-12:15 at various windows on either end of the 6th floor, one on the 7th and the black guys on the 5th. The motorcade did not even leave Love field until 11:55, so for there to be 3 teams - in place - there needed to be unobstructed access to the GK, Sniper's Lair (if a shoot came from there), Dal-Tex, RR yard, etc... And these people had to be aware of the expected landing time of the plane - as you said there was an ongoing radio report of the flight and motorcade procession yet I can't imagine using that as the basis for setting up the assassination timeline...

We do know that people were told to leave the GK/Overpass area well before 12pm (Altgens and Arnold(if there))

Bowers sees the 2 men at the GK fence by 12:20 after the car circles the lot - they know somehow to be there at that time and they must know they are safe from interference... isn't there a DPD uniformed officer there chasing people away?

There is someone in the SW 6th floor building going in and out of the shadows as well as an older, thin Negro according to A. Rowland at the SE 6th floor window.

and all this time Williams says he was alone up there until 12:15 at least... Jack Dougherty had also been on the 6th floor till after 12:20 and saw no one... ?!?!

I found this testimony a little strange in that you'd think there would have been a number of radios on, in and around the TSBD, with people checking on the progess of the parade yet only when Mrs. Reid calls her husband does she find out the parade is late.

I don't recall anyone else mentioning a radio braodcast while in the TSBD... any help?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Some other food for thought on this 38 min timeline (limo leaves Love Field and the assassination at 12:33)

http://karws.gso.uri...ternalComm.html

Then, there is the mishandling of the Carolyn Arnold statements. Taken together, the two support her later claims that she saw LHO on the first floor at 12:25; making it unlikely that he went up five flights of stairs and ran over to the window to shoot JFK. In her hand written statement she told the FBI she saw LHO "at about 12:25 PM" (Weisberg Post Mortem, p. 333 citing Commission Document 706(d)). The FBI retyped her statement to read that she LHO "a few minutes before 12:15 PM" (Roffman, p. 185, citing CD 5:4l). On page 276 Roffman notes the dishonestly of the Warren Report which claimed "that it knew of no Book Depository employee who claimed to have seen Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30 on the day of the assassination."

British journalist and author Anthony Summers provides the following summary of his 1978 interview with Mrs. Arnold:

When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came before I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water.

Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch on the second floor lunchroom. ”Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.”

ref. Crossfire, p 49; Conspiracy - Who Killed Kennedy?, p 108

http://www.mtgriffit...ments/hasty.htm

A few minutes later, Bill Shelley and Charles Givens saw Oswald on the first floor, at around 11:50. Then, ten minutes later, Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor. Moreover, as mentioned, Williams began eating his lunch on the sixth floor at right around noon and didn't leave the floor until around 12:15 or 12:20. Since Oswald was seen by Piper on the first floor at noon, and since Williams was on the sixth floor at noon to eat his lunch, the only time Oswald could have gone up to the sniper's nest was after Williams came back downstairs at 12:15 or 12:20. The motorcade was scheduled to pass in front of the TSBD at 12:25. As it turned out, the motorcade was running five minutes late, but Oswald could not have known that. Arriving at the sniper's window at 12:16 at the earliest, Oswald would have been hard-pressed to build (or finish building) the sniper's nest, arrange the boxes next to the window as a gun rest, and then reassemble the rifle. One witness, Arnold Rowland, insisted he saw a man with a rifle--an assembled rifle--on the sixth floor at 12:15 or 12:16, and Rowland said nothing about seeing any boxes being moved in the sniper's nest.

Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock.

Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock?

Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about

http://www.ratical.o.../PG/PGchp7.html

Jarman and Norman appeared together on the first floor again, about ten minutes after stepping outside. Because the crowds in front of the Depository were so large, the two men went up to the fifth floor at 12:20 or 12:25. To do this, they walked around to the back of the building, entering on the first floor through the rear door and taking the elevator up five stories (3H202).

Obviously, Oswald could not have told the police that "Junior" and a short Negro employee were together on the first floor unless he had seen this himself.[3] For Oswald to have witnessed Jarman and Norman in this manner, he had to have been on the first floor between either 12:10 and 12:15 or 12:20 and 12:25. The fact that Oswald was able to relate this incident is cogent evidence that he was in fact on the first floor at one or both of these times. If he was on the sixth floor, as the Commission believes, then it was indeed a remarkable coincidence that out of all the employees, Oswald picked the two who were on the first floor at the time he said, and together as he described. Since this is a remote possibility that warrants little serious consideration, I am persuaded to conclude that Oswald was on the first floor at some time between 12:10 and 12:25, which is consistent with the previously cited testimony of Eddie Piper.[4]

Now, let us revisit the statements made by Bonnie Ray Williams. First of all, when the WC asked Williams about his FBI statement, he denied telling the FBI that he left the sixth floor at 12:05 (4:103). And, when the Commission asked Williams to give an approximate time for his departure from the sixth floor, he said he left at around 12:20 (4:103). Former WC member Gerald Ford said Williams left the sixth floor "just minutes before the Presidential motorcade reached the corner of Houston and Elm"

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Not the first or only time the FBI recollection/recording of witness statements wound up being in favor of LHO did it as opposed to what was said.

Did they ever make an error in recording a statement that FAVORED LHO?

edit: It has been brought to my attention that the poster is probably a phony as it appears to have their arrival at Love Field that day as the image - which would be impossible. the VIP luncheon invite is still up for discussion - since it was a fundraiser, there is no reason to assume a noon start for luch was not correct and that the invite is legit... DJ

Edited November 20, 2012 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

Hey Jim,

The Invitation actually says "twelve noon" yet I am not sure who these invitations were sent to... if VIP you'd imagine they'd want to be there early to greet him while the posters say 12:30 for the rest of the people.. just a guess.

I did have this from one of my own essays but would have to research the source as it's not listed:

SS agent Lawson told Police Chief Curry that the Luncheon at the Trade Mart was to begin at 12:15 (45 minute ride from Love Field after arriving at 11:30) The invitation says 12 noon. They arrives at 11:39 and leaves for Trade Mart at 11:55.

and this:

Duke Lane Ed Forum Post http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14478.html

Jun 18 2009, 05:50 PM

I was leafing through old issues (is there any other kind?) of The Third Decade and came across an article by Timothy Cwiek in Volume 3, Issue 2 (January 1987) called "The Motorcade Route Stories that Never Were." Accompanying his article, reprinted on the back cover, were newspaper articles from both the Dallas Times Herald and Morning News detailing the route in print (published in the WC evidentiary volumes as Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363, respectively).

CE1362, published on November 19, indicates that the Dallas route was "revealed," indicating that:

From the (Love Field) airport, the President's party will proceed to Mockingbird to Lemmon and then to Turtle Creek, turning south on Cedar Springs.

The motorcade will then pass through downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons to the Trade Mart.

The return trip will be more direct: Stemmons to Harry Hines, to Mockingbird and on to Love Field — a distance of 4.2 miles.

A couple of things stand out in these articles. First, while the Times Herald indicates that Kennedy would have a "three hour visit to the city," it does not even note when that visit will begin. The News, on the other hand, indicates that the President's plane was due to land at Love Field at "about 11:30 a.m." For what it's worth, no time for Kennedy's planned departure is given in either article.

I don't see how else Oswald would have known the time to be later than that.

then again the bag in Wesley's car that morning was not big enough to hold the rifle anyway... Oswald didn't seem involved in the timing needs of the assassination at all that day.

[David Josephs]

Completely Jim.

Kind of like arguing about his ability to fire the rifle when in fact THAT rifle was never in his possession.

This also gives more of a reason for the FBI to say "no one sees Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30" when they know this not to be true as shown above.

As he is indeed seen a number of times up to minutes before the assassination and then by Truly/Baker within 90 seconds and again by Mrs. Reid within 2 minutes after... it becomes harder and harder to assume he simply "ran up at the last minute" - he'd have never known when that last minute was, who would be there, etc...

We have to remember he's on his own timeline, not one that has to fit back into the 12:30 shots from 2, if not three direcetions.

[John Dolva]

BUMP ( I reckon this thread cam go further)

[John Dolva]

BUMP ( I reckon this thread cam go further)

bump

[David Josephs]

Not sure where we can go with this...

Maybe the fact about the 2 Oswalds (Jiffy store visits in the morning, twice) and how this other Oswald may have also been in the building at the time?

The biggest problem I've always had was the set-up... if LHO was seen anywhere at the time of the shots would "they" have simply gotten rid of that witness?

Oswald was supposed to have been killed and all that not even an issue... But he WAS seen after 12:15.

DJ

[John Dolva]

This ties in with an overall perspective on the assassination. If it was to have happened as the Presidential Report would have it then just about everything was squeexzed into just : just the right time, just the right space, no more no less, just perfect in execution, just a lot of things. A scenario that is so remarkable in a way that it seems like either a ''believe it or not'' episode or it was orchestrated (or). A lot of the other issues have been covered but the just in the right place and time not so afaik without regard for who shot. It's like a number of similar events. Last interview prolonged significantly but just long enough. So, there must have been a reliable (if one accepts that) communications network. What's the best? A combo, a solo? That was what I was getting from your initial post that prompted my reply. I think speculative thinking on it and those who know the issues deeper can combine to look at likelyhoods and ... I don't know.

edit:typos

Edited August 4, 2010 by John Dolva

[David Josephs]

I hear you John...

The two Oswalds (Jiffy Mart sighting) may also play into this if they both were at the TSBD at some point. One of them might have been one of the men seen on the 6th floor. The When and Where becomes much more important as well as a predicate to the How and Why.

Are Oswlad's actions consistent with someone who is not exactly sure when the president he supposedly decided to kill days before, is passing by?

or are the details of the assassination such that teams of people, all in radio contact, know when and where to be, are seen there (or the areas they would be in are somehow secure from unwanted visitors) and are shooting simultaneously via radio command.

We know Altgens was chased away from the overpass and RR yard at 11:15

Do we believe Richard Carr seeing someone on the 7th floor at 12:00

Bowers' people and cars between 12:15 and 12:30

Rowland's people at 12:15

Carolyn Walthers sighting at 12:15 of men on the 5th floor

John Powell also sees men on the 6th floor with guns at 12:15

Carolyn Aronold who sees Oswald at 12:15 on the 2nd floor

Ruby Henderson also sees 2 men on the 6th floor at 12:15

BRWilliams testifies that the 6th floor is empty when he leaves at 12:20 to go down to the 5th (where is Dougherty?)

12:31 Baker/Truly meet Oswald

12:32 Oswald passes Reid heading to the front of the TSBD

12:33 Rowald see a man looks like Oswald but with different clothing run out the back of TSBD

Carr sees men coming around from the back of TSBD and leave in a car parked on Houston

12:34/5 Oswald leaves thru the front door... possibly gets in the car that RCraig sees which is somewhat supported by Oswald's outburst about the Paine station wagon later on at the office.

The LNers are going to have to reconcile the multiple witnesses to men on the 6th floor between 12:00-12:30 while LHO was spotted numerous times during that period on the lower floors. With those men working up on the 6th floor - when does LHO have the time to set up and be ready when he has no real idea when the limo is coming by?

DJ

[David Josephs]

I don't recall it Jim.... but I remember a picture of an Oswald looking person talking to a Dallas police officer out front of the TSBD, just don't know when that was taken.

then again, it does not seem so impossible to have the actual Oswald out front within minutes of the assassination given he was seen by Reid right after the Truly/Baker incident and then makes his way down to the 1str floor and out the front.

I am hoping the point of this thread is to show that if we are to believe any of the wsitnesses that place Oswald eslewhere (2nd floor lunchroom) at 12:15.

I like this quote from the Oliver Stones JFK 100 site:

Eddie Piper and William Shelly [sic -- Shelley] saw Oswald eating lunch in the first floor lunch room around twelve. Around 12:15, on her way out of the building to see the motorcade, secretary Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the second floor snack room, where he said he went for a Coke . . .

Irrelevant. Oswald's whereabouts at 12:00 or 12:15 are not an issue. emphasis added

by not refuting the claim we can basically feel comfortable that the Arnold claim of 12:15 is valid albeit dismissable by this "OSWALD DID IT" site... it is indeed relevent where he was at 12:15... the same time other witnesses see people and rifles on the 6th floor.

The question we are asking is not whether Oswald could have made it up, built the rifle, built the sniper's lair, and accomplished the feat...

but

What the heck was he still doing on the 2nd floor at 12:15 and (ala Mr. Carroll)

did he know or not know about the timing of the parade...and/or the assassination?

If he was there, as some say, to help prevent the assassination, he was not doing a good job by hiding in the TSBD during the parade

... leads me to conclude Oswald either didn't have a clue and was somehow out of sight exactly when he needed to be or

he knew all along he was being set up and stayed in the 2nd floor lunchroom the entire time.... or

he actually did run up, pulled off the most amazing shooting performance in history, and ran back down, unseen, unmussed, cold-blooded enough to buy a Coke and shrug off the crime of the century with casual glances and some mumbling....

Guess it was a good thing Williams, Norman and Jarvis (and Dougherty) did not hear anyone running up the steps, past the 5th floor, walking across the floor to the corner window above them, assemble the rifle and move the boxes... they only heard the 3 click-Booms... and no footsteps or shuffling of his escape.

DJ

[David Von Pein]

The "Trade Mart poster" depicted below is definitely a fake. There can be no doubt that this thing is not genuine, because the photo in the poster shows JFK and Jackie arriving at Love Field on 11/22/63!

So, whoever was selling this fake "poster" on E-Bay was really pulling a fast one (and pulling a few people's legs too). I hope nobody paid very much for this obvious forgery:

Edited August 5, 2010 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

The "Trade Mart poster" depicted below is definitely a fake. There can be no doubt that this thing is not genuine, because the photo in the poster shows JFK and Jackie arriving at Love Field on 11/22/63!

So, whoever was selling this fake "poster" on E-Bay was really pulling a fast one (and pulling a few people's legs too). I hope nobody paid very much for this obvious forgery:

Ah, come on Dave,

Next you'll be telling us the B ackyard photos and Zapruder film are fakes too.

BK

[Dean Hagerman]

Ah, come on Dave,

Next you'll be telling us the B ackyard photos and Zapruder film are fakes too.

[Peter Fokes]

The time of arrival of President Kennedy at Elm and Houston was a variable.

When that variable coincided with an opportunity, the deed was accomplished.

Keep in mind though, there was no predetermined certainty that the opportunity would present itself at a certain time.

Had the motorcade been delayed an hour, the coincident instant of opportunity and time would not have happened.

Do not underestimate the significance of luck , or should we say bad luck for JFK.

There was no need for sophisticated "timing".

The opportunity would either occur or not occur.

Timing was a variable impossible to control.

The trap can be readied; but the mouse must appear first, before the trap is disabled by chance.

Not every trap catches a mouse.

Peter Fokes,

Toronto

[David Von Pein]

I wasn't addressing myself to any Lawson message, Jim. I was merely pointing out the obvious about

this poster, which is clearly a forgery, due to the picture of JFK & Jackie that adorns the front of it,

which is a photo that was snapped about 45 minutes before the "12:30 PM" time shown on the same

fake "poster".

Edited August 5, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

I wasn't addressing myself to any Lawson message, Jim. I was merely pointing out the obvious about

this poster, which is clearly a forgery, due to the picture of JFK & Jackie that adorns the front of it,

which is a photo that was snapped about 45 minutes before the "12:30 PM" time shown on the same

fake "poster".

Definitely DVP... I thought I had posted to that fact but it was a reply to a GMack email... sorry.

Dawned on me just after I posted it... But the invitation has been proven authentic and Lawson does tell Curry that the timing is to be at the

Trade Mart by 12:15 after landing at 11:30 or so.

Peter,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one except for the "readying the trap". That is the entire point of this thread.

For Oswald to "ready the trap" a number of things must occur...

- rifle is assembled

- Sniper's lair is built

- Noone is on the 6th floor between 11:55 and 12:30

- witnesses do NOT see multiple men, in different windows, sporting rifles at 12:15

- Oswald is NOT in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 or as late as 12:25

- Oswald knows when the limo would pass by so as to have the time to "ready the trap"

Since these actions are in themselves contradictory, I conclude there was no luck, or LHO involved in the actual assassination.

By some means the information was relayed to those who were involved in the assassination, positions were taken, the "trap was readied"

Wasn't it one of the SS agents who said it felt as if they were driving into an ambush, a shooting gallery?

If anyone can present a timeline between 12:00 and 12:30 for LHO to have accomplished the "readying" please post... I believe we will find

both the opportunity and evidence lacking in this respect.

DJ