Was JFK really waving?

[Dean Hagerman]

Invoking Mary Woodward's Louella Parsons-like journalese is like me advising you to look at moment 1:09 in this, the great unacknowledged assassination commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BJGR09QH7c

Such an awesome movie, and book

[Robin Unger]

Using Don's plat.

Altgen's 6

Right to left

A.J Millican (Hard hat man) Alonzo, Woodward, Donaldson, Brown

Edited November 2, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

2-frame GIF

quickly put together GIF approx scaling

Absolutely keen eye Robin

We know now at what marks the SS-100-X made the turn.

Here in this Towner frame you can see the Queen Mary has still it's left front tire slightly rotated,

making the turn bumber at bumper with the limo. Look at the stripe. Just over it.

Even in the re-enactemt the car made a wider turn than the SS-100-X and has no trouble with the Island on Elm.

Watching the Tina Towner film how close and fluent the presidential limo made the turn, let

me believe that Roy Truly was mistaken.

best to you

Martin

Thanks Martin

As with most of the photographic evidence we seem to be of one mind.

[Robin Unger]

Towner 3-Frame GIF

[Bill Miller]

Bill

Are you refering to Cheryl McKinnon ?

Yes I did, Robin .... I was mistaken. Don's map has her location marked. When I was recently researching her ... there was a reference to her being east of the road sign. I would defer to Don's map for where she stood - it was right at the curb. When I count from Brandt to Millican - I get one more person than Don shows on his map ... I have tried this three times and the result was the same. Regardless, she is standing along the street and JFK would have been right in front of her as she said when he was shot.

Bill

Edited November 3, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robin Unger]

Bill

Are you refering to Cheryl McKinnon ?

Yes I did, Robin .... I was mistaken. Don's map has her location marked. When I was recently researching her ... there was a reference to her being east of the road sign. I would defer to Don's map for where she stood - it was right at the curb. When I count from Brandt to Millican - I get one more person than Don shows on his map ... I have tried this three times and the result was the same. Regardless, she is standing along the street and JFK would have been right in front of her as she said when he was shot.

Bill

Crop from Don's updated Plat.

[Robert Harris]

It might also be helpful to study JFK's face in a photo taken by Tina's father at the same instant that she was filming his reactions and compare that with his face in Duncan's video.

I don't know what you see in this Towner Still photo, Bob?

Are you aware that there is a serious time gap between the Jim Towner Still photo

and the Tina Towner film frames were JfK raised his right hand?

It is hard to believe that JFK's reaction (alleged) time was that slow.

Martin

Show me your analysis and your numbers, Martin. I am disappointed that you would claim that you see nothing unusual about his face then, but I guess the human mind can do strange things.

[Robert Harris]

I can't believe that you and Duncan could be this stupid. Chris Davidson posted a blowup of that frame yesterday which clearly shows JFK's hand in a fist.

And your claim that JFK was happily smiling and waving afterward is just more bullxxxx. Even you must have figured out by now that he never smiled or waved again, after his reactions in the Towner film.

Robert, Being a disgruntled blow-hard will not make one correct - common sense and good evidence will.

Often times a still image can be deceiving ... this is why film in motion can offer a better interpretation as to what someone is doing. I am sure that if seen by the right angle that someone saluting someone else could look as though they are getting ready to give them a judo chop.

Now about JFK not smiling again ... Mary Woodward who had JFK directly in front of her and the women near her said the President smiled and waved to them just as the first shot rang out. (see Woodward article below) Also seeing that Mary was not so delusional to say that it was Greer who turned and shot the President, I will bet on Mary and what I see in the Zfilm. The clip below shows JFK as he is facing Woodward. Even through a slightly out of focus view that this clip offers ... I can still see JFK smiling. Woodward had the clear view.

http://www.history-m...22-63_0001a.gif

Bill Miller

Look at the freaking picture, Bill. No, really looook at it.

That is not how people wave and it is certainly not how JFK waved at people in every other video I have ever seen or you have ever seen, although I'm sure that given only a quick glance, Woodward probably thought he was smiling and waving.

BTW, since you seem to trust her recollections, do you also believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots??

Or do you just cherry pick a single sentence and go with that because it supports your argument at the moment?

[Robert Harris]

Thank you Pat, although I'm sure that we have all read those cites before. BTW, you are aware, are you not that Woodward said the second and third were closely bunched and that it was the third that caused the explosion, aren't you??

When do you suppose that second shot was fired

"I heard the second one, and this time I knew what had happened, because I saw the president's motion, and then the third shot came very, very quickly, on top of the second one. And that time, I saw his head blow open.."

[Bill Miller]

Look at the freaking picture, Bill. No, really looook at it.

That is not how people wave and it is certainly not how JFK waved at people in every other video I have ever seen or you have ever seen, although I'm sure that given only a quick glance, Woodward probably thought he was smiling and waving.

STOP THE WAGON .... Are you trying to tell me that this is a wave of a man that has been wounded by asphalt that he thought was the result of a shot taken at him as he rounded the corner??? If so - put that on Youtube where it belongs.

You first try and sell that JFK had a sudden closed fist attack as a result of asphalt being chipped up into his face from a missed bullet hitting the street while passing through the intersection of Houston and Elm. (I think it has been shown you were in error about the closed fist)

Now we are to believe that JFK continued on down the street with his right arm resting casually on the side of the car and that we should believe that Woodward was mistaken about JFK smiling at her as he raises his hand once again to wave and that instead he was back in distress over that alleged piece of asphalt hitting him in the turn onto Elm Street. I am sorry, but I find where you are trying to go here to be ridiculous and unsupported by the Zfilm, Woodward's observation from 15' away before the first shot was heard by her, and plain common sense.

I see it far more likely that JFK appears to be smiling just as Woodward said and what I see in the Zapruder film, and be doing sooooo well after the turn onto Elm to having relaxed his arm on the car panel before the next wave than to buy the snake oil you are selling.

BTW, since you seem to trust her recollections, do you also believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots??

Or do you just cherry pick a single sentence and go with that because it supports your argument at the moment?

Let me repeat this again ... Some people reported two shots and some as many as 6 shots. It was discovered during the filming of the movie 'JFK' that at the time of the 32 test firings being undertaken in Dealey Plaza ... it was learned that depending on where a person stood seem to determine from where and how many shots they heard. Groden said that some people at one location didn't hear shots that were reported heard from another location in the Plaza. Some people recognized some noises as gunshots while others did not. I think one would be a fool to try and make a case on why one person heard two shots close together and one later ... some people heard one shot early and two shots close together - and some witnesses claimed that three shots were fired and all evenly spaced. This goes just to what Groden reported on the 30+ test firings done for the JFK movie. So the answer to your question is that I have no problem with Woodard's statement concerning the sound of shots being fired. I still see JFK smiling as he waved at the women he was passing before the first shot sounded.

Bill Miller

Edited November 3, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Bill, do you believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots?

[Bill Miller]

Bill, do you believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots?

I believe that each person told to the best of their ability what they thought they heard whether they heard one shot or as many as six. Now do you have an intelligent question for me that has not already been answered?

Bill Miller

Edited November 3, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

Bill, do you believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots?

I believe that each person told to the best of their ability what they thought they heard whether they heard one shot or as many as six. Now do you have an intelligent question for me that has not already been answered?

Bill Miller

Bill, do you believe what she said about the spacing and timing of those shots?

You only need to provide a one syllable reply.

[Robert Harris]

Let me repeat this again ... Some people reported two shots and some as many as 6 shots. It was discovered during the filming of the movie 'JFK' that at the time of the 32 test firings being undertaken in Dealey Plaza ... it was learned that depending on where a person stood seem to determine from where and how many shots they heard. Groden said that some people at one location didn't hear shots that were reported heard from another location in the Plaza. Some people recognized some noises as gunshots while others did not. I think one would be a fool to try and make a case on why one person heard two shots close together and one later ... some people heard one shot early and two shots close together - and some witnesses claimed that three shots were fired and all evenly spaced. This goes just to what Groden reported on the 30+ test firings done for the JFK movie. So the answer to your question is that I have no problem with Woodard's statement concerning the sound of shots being fired. I still see JFK smiling as he waved at the women he was passing before the first shot sounded.

Bill Miller

Well put, Bill.

Here is a short compilation I made, and which shows how some people thought the shots were spaced.

What a crock

The Warren Commission concluded:

" ..a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced. Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together."

At one point during the hearings, Warren Commissioner Allen Dulles noted the overwhelming consistency of these witnesses, when he described the ratio of those confirming that shooting scenario in comparison with others,

"There has been a certain amount of testimony indicating there was a longer pause between the report of the first shot... and the second and third shots, that is not absolutely unanimous but I would say it is something like 5 to 1 or something of that kind.."

[Robin Unger]

Frames from JFK the movie.