Dean Hartwell

Planes and Passengers of 9/11

45 posts in this topic

Link to Essay: Misdirection

I wrote the essay above about what I believe happened to the planes and passengers on 9/11. Here is a short summary of my findings:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

Do I have the facts right?

What is your theory about the planes and passengers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Link to Essay: Misdirection

I wrote the essay above about what I believe happened to the planes and passengers on 9/11. Here is a short summary of my findings:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

Do I have the facts right?

What is your theory about the planes and passengers?

Not only do you have your facts wrong,

You give conspiracy theorists a bad rep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

William,

May I trouble you to explain what facts you think are wrong?

Conspiracy theorists who make broad statements without backing them up are of no help, either.

Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*yawn*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Link to Essay: Misdirection

I wrote the essay above about what I believe happened to the planes and passengers on 9/11. Here is a short summary of my findings:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

Do I have the facts right?

What is your theory about the planes and passengers?

Yours is a very likely scenario shared by many researchers. Well done!

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Link to Essay: Misdirection

I wrote the essay above about what I believe happened to the planes and passengers on 9/11. Here is a short summary of my findings:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew. "False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys. The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

Do I have the facts right?

What is your theory about the planes and passengers?

Not only do you have your facts wrong,

You give conspiracy theorists a bad rep.

Bill...I respectfully but confidently say that you are unfamiliar with the "facts".

Jack

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Facts"? You need to look up the definition, Jack.

*yawn*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

William,

May I trouble you to explain what facts you think are wrong?

Conspiracy theorists who make broad statements without backing them up are of no help, either.

Dean

Well for starters, you will have a hard time convincing the families of those who died on the two planes that you claim didn't take off.

Tony Summers is writing a book on the events of 9/11 that I believe will deal with the real issues.

BK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yours is a very likely scenario shared by many researchers. Well done!

Jack

Thank you, Jack!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

William,

May I trouble you to explain what facts you think are wrong?

Conspiracy theorists who make broad statements without backing them up are of no help, either.

Dean

Well for starters, you will have a hard time convincing the families of those who died on the two planes that you claim didn't take off.

Tony Summers is writing a book on the events of 9/11 that I believe will deal with the real issues.

BK

As I mentioned, I believe the Flight 11 passengers went to Flight 175.

As for Flight 77, has anyone come forward and said they saw a relative/friend take off on 77 from Dulles that day?

David Ray Griffin has written about the alleged calls from the planes that day and points out that the FBI report contradicts Ted Olson's claim that he received calls from Barbara Olson from Flight 77: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16924

Where is the evidence that either Flight 11 or Flight 77 took off?

What is the name of Tony Summers' upcoming book? I will look for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Link to Essay: Misdirection

I wrote the essay above about what I believe happened to the planes and passengers on 9/11. Here is a short summary of my findings:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics records show that only two of the supposedly hijacked flights actually took off: United 175 and United 93.

The other two flights, American 11 and American 77, not only did not take off but WERE NOT EVEN SCHEDULED TO FLY ON 9/11.

Can you supply a link I did not see one in your essay? The whole idea that the flights were unscheduled is absurd and it is for promoting nonsense like this that even with in the ““truth” movement” “no planers” are considered crackpots. The amount of people who would have to be “in on it” or otherwise silenced prohibitively large and would included all the UA and AA ticket agents at Logan and for feeder flights at other airports (and probably for the entire US since they systems are linked), dozens or more flight controllers, baggage and security crews at Logan, the people claiming to be next of kin of those on the flights as well as personnel from the NYC Medical Examiner’s offices as well as any travel agents or users of sites like Orbitz who happened to look up flights from Logan to LAX that morning etc etc. The idea that the PTB/CIA/ONI/PNAC/MIBH etc would put together this elaborate plot to murder thousands, involving hundreds of people etc, etc would be unwilling or able to fake a BTS list is mind boggling.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Another fallacy propogated by people who do not know what they are talking about. Planes normally crash at low speeds and shallow angles all four flight collided at high speeds at acute angles.

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

All flights in the US were ordered to land as quickly as possible that morning I’m sure there were a lot more than 200 PAX at Hopkins and every other airport that morning. None of the hijacked planes went near Cleveland.

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

Either that or it was not released; show one photo or video clip of passangers boarding any flight that crashed.

There is no evidence of any boarding passes for any of the passengers.

See above

Only an FBI report mentions the sale of tickets to passengers, but I have seen no evidence of the authenticity of any tickets or credit card receipts.

See above

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

Provide one example of passenger manifests with conflicting data, CNN, Reuters and other media outlets put unofficial lists together based on media reports and there were minor discrepancies between them.

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew.

This is an incredibly silly theory based on just about zero evidence.

"False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys.

Do you have any evidence “"False blips" were placed on FAA screens” anywhere in the US let alone in the northeast? The only injects I’ve read about were introduced on to NORAD screens and IIRC only over Alaska and western Canada. They were cancelled once they got wind of the hijackings.

The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

More nonsense based on zero evidence and incredibly offensive.

Do I have the facts right?

No

What is your theory about the planes and passengers?

They were destroyed and killed upon impact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yours is a very likely scenario shared by many researchers. Well done!

Jack

Holocaust deniers could say the same thing to each other with just as much factual basis. 39% and 32% of respondents to an informal poll of the truth movement listed "No plane at Pentagon" or "No planes at WTC" as among "the three theories promoted by TM members that you think have been most damaging in terms of public perception of the movement"

http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/pollquestions38-80:youandthe911truthmove

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Response to Len Colby post of 11/4/10 at 9:59 PM. My comments in bold.

Can you supply a link I did not see one in your essay?

From the Essay “Misdirection” page 10:

Fact: Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) shows that United Airlines Flight 11 and American Airlines Flight 77 were not logged as having taken off that day from Boston or Dulles, respectively, as the official theory states they do.

My linkhttp://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/dstat/OntimeSummaryDepatures.xml

Fact: These two planes were said to have hit the North Tower at WTC and the Pentagon, respectively, in the official story.

Conclusion: There were no flights 11 and 77 on 9/11 and thus no passengers on them (note in the link below that the late Gerard Holmgren, a researcher, discovered records which indicated no 11 or 77 flights before apparent subsequent tampering of the records indicated that all four flights were listed as not having been on record because of hijackings.)

http://911truth.wetpaint.com/page/An+Interview+with+Gerard+Holmgren

The whole idea that the flights were unscheduled is absurd and it is for promoting nonsense like this that even with in the ““truth” movement” “no planers” are considered crackpots. The amount of people who would have to be “in on it” or otherwise silenced prohibitively large and would included all the UA and AA ticket agents at Logan and for feeder flights at other airports (and probably for the entire US since they systems are linked), dozens or more flight controllers, baggage and security crews at Logan, the people claiming to be next of kin of those on the flights as well as personnel from the NYC Medical Examiner’s offices as well as any travel agents or users of sites like Orbitz who happened to look up flights from Logan to LAX that morning etc etc. The idea that the PTB/CIA/ONI/PNAC/MIBH etc would put together this elaborate plot to murder thousands, involving hundreds of people etc, etc would be unwilling or able to fake a BTS list is mind boggling.

Question: Do you use the phrase “no planer” to refer to me? I have stated that two of the planes identified by the official theory flew that day. And as to the rest of your argument, how would we ever know if a large group of people is keeping a secret? It is a non-falsifiable argument because I cannot prove the theory that a secret is kept is correct and you cannot disprove it.

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

Another fallacy propogated by people who do not know what they are talking about. Planes normally crash at low speeds and shallow angles all four flight collided at high speeds at acute angles.

From Misdirection (page 8):

http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson

Colonel George Nelson points out that there was plenty of time to check any pieces of aircraft for their registry at the Pentagon and cannot recall any crash “where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft.”

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

All flights in the US were ordered to land as quickly as possible that morning I’m sure there were a lot more than 200 PAX at Hopkins and every other airport that morning. None of the hijacked planes went near Cleveland.

From Misdirection (page 10):

To determine where these planes actually went, we could look to an airport which had unusual activity that day: Cleveland. There, two planes made emergency landings - Delta 1989 (scheduled for Los Angeles) and an unidentified plane within about a half hour of one another - 10:10 AM and 10:45 AM. (The emergency landings were ordered by authorities based on what turned out to be a false report of a bomb on board one of the planes). A passenger from 1989 said there were "sixty or so" passengers on her plane. Although early press reports said the second plane had 200 passengers, there appears to be no corroboration for this exact number and it may well have been an estimate.

http://911review.org/brad.com/Woodybox/cleveland-plane-emergency-land.html

The researcher Woody Box concludes, based on press and eyewitness reports, that the 1989

passengers went to an FAA building at the south end of the airport and that the second plane

passengers went to a NASA facility on the west end of the airport.

http://911review.org/inn.globalfreepress/Cleveland_Airport_Mystery.html

http://911review.org/brad.com/Woodybox/CLEVELAND-PLAIN_NASA_9-12.html

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

Either that or it was not released; show one photo or video clip of passangers boarding any flight that [crashed].

My thoughts: to prove its case before the public, the government should have gotten photos and tapes to demonstrate the presence of the passengers at the places they would have been had they taken the flights. I would say the same about the boarding passes, ticket sales and receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

Provide one example of passenger manifests with conflicting data, CNN, Reuters and other media outlets put unofficial lists together based on media reports and there were minor discrepancies between them.

Link in Misdirection (page 8)

My thoughts: there still may be problems authenticating passenger manifests. It appears that the FBI and the airlines, the best sources, were not consulted about any list made public (see video).

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew.

This is an incredibly silly theory based on just about zero evidence.

My thoughts: I have yet to see proof that United 175 crashed at the World Trade Center. If that cannot be proven, and the Cleveland plane and passengers I refer to above and in my essay were not identified, can you really say it is silly to believe that United 175 went to Cleveland? Same can be said of the other planes and sites (see above).

"False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys.

Do you have any evidence “"False blips" were placed on FAA screens” anywhere in the US let alone in the northeast? The only injects I’ve read about were introduced on to NORAD screens and IIRC only over Alaska and western Canada. They were cancelled once they got wind of the hijackings.

My thoughts: My source is Michael Ruppert (in Crossing the Rubicon, p. 339), which cites a Toronto Sun December 9, 2001 article. He also quotes FAA chair Jane Garvey as saying that as many as 11 aircraft were out of radio contact or off course that day

The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

More nonsense based on zero evidence and incredibly offensive.

My thoughts: Before anyone can possibly be rightfully offended, we would have to know the truth about what happened to the passengers. Your statement is either premature or wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Response to Len Colby post of 11/4/10 at 9:59 PM. My comments in bold.

Can you supply a link I did not see one in your essay?

From the Essay “Misdirection” page 10:

Fact: Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) shows that United Airlines Flight 11 and American Airlines Flight 77 were not logged as having taken off that day from Boston or Dulles, respectively, as the official theory states they do.

My linkhttp://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/dstat/OntimeSummaryDepatures.xml

Fact: These two planes were said to have hit the North Tower at WTC and the Pentagon, respectively, in the official story.

Conclusion: There were no flights 11 and 77 on 9/11 and thus no passengers on them (note in the link below that the late Gerard Holmgren, a researcher, discovered records which indicated no 11 or 77 flights before apparent subsequent tampering of the records indicated that all four flights were listed as not having been on record because of hijackings.)

http://911truth.wetpaint.com/page/An+Interview+with+Gerard+Holmgren

The whole idea that the flights were unscheduled is absurd and it is for promoting nonsense like this that even with in the ““truth” movement” “no planers” are considered crackpots. The amount of people who would have to be “in on it” or otherwise silenced prohibitively large and would included all the UA and AA ticket agents at Logan and for feeder flights at other airports (and probably for the entire US since they systems are linked), dozens or more flight controllers, baggage and security crews at Logan, the people claiming to be next of kin of those on the flights as well as personnel from the NYC Medical Examiner’s offices as well as any travel agents or users of sites like Orbitz who happened to look up flights from Logan to LAX that morning etc etc. The idea that the PTB/CIA/ONI/PNAC/MIBH etc would put together this elaborate plot to murder thousands, involving hundreds of people etc, etc would be unwilling or able to fake a BTS list is mind boggling.

Question: Do you use the phrase “no planer” to refer to me? I have stated that two of the planes identified by the official theory flew that day.

You are a no planer because you believe no planes were involved in the crashes but since are willing to admit the United flights actually existed if you prefer I’ll refer to you as a 2 planer.

And as to the rest of your argument, how would we ever know if a large group of people is keeping a secret? It is a non-falsifiable argument because I cannot prove the theory that a secret is kept is correct and you cannot disprove it.

The converse of that is that “it is a non-falsifiable argument” that so many people, many of who the plotters would have no way of identifying could keep such a secret. David Shayler and Gen. Stubblebine (sp?) are also no-planers the former’s belief that he is Jesus Christ and the latter’s belief that people could walk through walls if they concentrated hard enough are not falsifiable either. But we can reasonably assume Shayler is and Stubblebine was wrong. An since there is no known precedent for such a large and disparate group covering up mass murder including in many cases of relatives, friends and co-workers we can reasonably assume it to be false.

I was unable to open the supposed archived pages. But even assuming that it is true that the BTS page did not list flights 11 and 77 we are faced with two possibilities.

1) The BTS did list them because of the hijackings. As to why the discrepancy between the AA and UA flight it is possible that different people entered the data for the airlines.

2) The flights in fact did not exist.

But the evidence against the latter is overwhelming:

- the DNA of all and personal effects of many their passengers and crew were recovered

- Bill could fill your in on this better but IIRC an AA stewardess who is a friend of John Judge personally IDed the arm of a colleague from a ring or bracelet.

- If indeed the flights thousands of people many of whom the forces of darkness who not be able to ID let alone control would no this, how would they know who checked schedules for flights from LOG – LAX and IUD – SFO? Besides that you would hundreds if not thousands of AA, FAA, BTS, LOG, IUD and PWM employees including but not limited to flight controllers, baggage handlers, ticket agents, operations center personnel and reservation center personnel. Additionally you would have the loved ones of the passengers. The notion that all these people would remain silent after more than 9 years is absurd. Can you cite an example of such a large disparate group remaining silent so long?

None of the crash sites - the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or Shanksville PA - had debris that matched with any of the aircraft that supposedly crashed there.

The people unlike you actually investigate the crash sites would beg to differ

Another fallacy propogated by people who do not know what they are talking about. Planes normally crash at low speeds and shallow angles all four flight collided at high speeds at acute angles.

From Misdirection (page 8):

http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson

Colonel George Nelson points out that there was plenty of time to check any pieces of aircraft for their registry at the Pentagon and cannot recall any crash “where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft.”

This has already been debated here years ago.

- The crashes were investigated by the FBI and their reports (AFAIK) have not been made public. Unlike the NTSB and FAA but like DoD the Bureau does not normally releases their reports.

- It is not SOP for the NTSB of FAA to include the serial # of parts not considered to have played roles in the accidents.

- Even if the FBI released this info no planers would simply claim it had been faked

Eyewitnesses and newspaper accounts mentioned a sighting of approximately 200 passengers at the Cleveland airport after all of the supposedly hijacked planes "crashed."

All flights in the US were ordered to land as quickly as possible that morning I’m sure there were a lot more than 200 PAX at Hopkins and every other airport that morning. None of the hijacked planes went near Cleveland.

From Misdirection (page 10):

To determine where these planes actually went, we could look to an airport which had unusual activity that day: Cleveland. There, two planes made emergency landings - Delta 1989 (scheduled for Los Angeles) and an unidentified plane within about a half hour of one another - 10:10 AM and 10:45 AM. (The emergency landings were ordered by authorities based on what turned out to be a false report of a bomb on board one of the planes). A passenger from 1989 said there were "sixty or so" passengers on her plane. Although early press reports said the second plane had 200 passengers, there appears to be no corroboration for this exact number and it may well have been an estimate.

http://911review.org/brad.com/Woodybox/cleveland-plane-emergency-land.html

The researcher Woody Box concludes, based on press and eyewitness reports, that the 1989

passengers went to an FAA building at the south end of the airport and that the second plane

passengers went to a NASA facility on the west end of the airport.

http://911review.org/inn.globalfreepress/Cleveland_Airport_Mystery.html

http://911review.org/brad.com/Woodybox/CLEVELAND-PLAIN_NASA_9-12.html

Did you actually look at the links? The plane reported to have landed at 10:10 was Delta and sometimes even as Delta 1989 so was the plane reported to have landed at 10:45. Thus the most likely explanation is that as tends to happen in such situations some of the reports got the time wrong. The other possibility is that some got the airline and in some cases the flight # wrong. But even if the latter was the case 10:45 was after the FAA order all planes to land.

I also have doubt the credibility of “Woody Box” who hides behind a pseudonym and named his site 911review.ORG to induce people to confuse it with 911review.COM one the most respected sites in the truth movement.

Another hole in your "theory" is that all four flights were tracked and none came anywhere near Cleveland.

There is no evidence of any passengers being seen or videotaped in any of the airports they supposedly flew out of.

Either that or it was not released; show one photo or video clip of passengers boarding any flight that [crashed].

My thoughts: to prove its case before the public, the government should have gotten photos and tapes to demonstrate the presence of the passengers at the places they would have been had they taken the flights. I would say the same about the boarding passes, ticket sales and receipts.

There are passenger lists for the airplanes supposedly hijacked, but none can be authenticated and the lists frequently conflict with one another.

The vast majority of the public have no doubts about this and the fringe fanatics who doubt it are unlikely to be swayed no matter what evidence is produced. Even within the "truth" movement the idea that all or some of the passengers/flights do not exist is a fringe belief. Posts along those lines are banned and/or ridiculed at 9/11 Blogger, Loose Change Forum,911review/911research and other ‘leading’ truther sites.

Even if the these photos or videos were released no planers would claim they were fakes.

The only airports involved that had surveillance were Dulles and Portland (ME). Video from both airports have been released. AFAIK Atta and al-Shehhi were the only people from the Maine flight to board the hijacked planes. The Dulles tape can be found here.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/NT00211.html

Provide one example of passenger manifests with conflicting data, CNN, Reuters and other media outlets put unofficial lists together based on media reports and there were minor discrepancies between them.

Link in Misdirection (page 8)

My thoughts: there still may be problems authenticating passenger manifests. It appears that the FBI and the airlines, the best sources, were not consulted about any list made public (see video).

I only made it through 2 ½ minutes of that stupid video it led off with a lie, “It is a well established fact that the 911 planes did not crash at all”, and then proceeded to a false assumption complaining the FBI and airlines did not release passenger lists, they don’t normally do so. You can look up flight schedules online. Call your local airport and ask them for the names of the passengers of a flight that landed recently. Remember that crash up in Buffalo in 2009? Two days later AP released a list: “Names of people killed in crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407. The names have been provided by employers, relatives or friends.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,492324,00.html . And forgive me IF the video maker dealt with this latter but:

- the Boston Globe obtained copies the manifests of flights 11 and 175 and published seating charts on 9/14 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/14/national/main311268.shtml, http://graphics.boston.com/news/packages/underattack/images/aa_flight_11_manifest.gif

- on 9/12 United released a list of passengers on flights 93 and 175 but “At the request of the victims' families, a number of names have been withheld from release” http://www.united.com/press/detail/0,1442,10454-1,00.html

- During the Moussoui trial the DoJ released all 4 manifests http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/OG00010.html

- Author Terry McDermott obtained the manifests for his book about the hijackers http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060584696?v=glance

I already aknowledged there were minor discrepancies between some of the lists based on media accounts, considering the way the were complied this is not surprising. Other than minor spelling variations can you point to any discrepancies between the official lists, i.e. the ones I linked above?

My theory: United 175 and United 93 flew out of Boston and Newark, respectively. United 175 did NOT go to the WTC and United 93 did NOT go to Shanksville. Instead, United 175 took the passengers assigned to American 11 and went to Cleveland Hopkins Airport. United 93 flew to a Pennsylvania location. Neither crashed nor was shot down. American 77 never flew.

This is an incredibly silly theory based on just about zero evidence.

My thoughts: I have yet to see proof that United 175 crashed at the World Trade Center. If that cannot be proven, and the Cleveland plane and passengers I refer to above and in my essay were not identified, can you really say it is silly to believe that United 175 went to Cleveland? Same can be said of the other planes and sites (see above).

There is ample proof of this the plane was taped and broadcast live hitting the south tower by various media outlets and amateur videographers.

  • Hundreds to thousands of witnesses say the collision in person.
  • The DNA and personal effects of many of the PAX and crew were recovered
  • Large amount of debris of a United 767 was recovered

"False blips" were placed on FAA screens to distract those watching and other planes may have been used as decoys.

Do you have any evidence “"False blips" were placed on FAA screens” anywhere in the US let alone in the northeast? The only injects I’ve read about were introduced on to NORAD screens and IIRC only over Alaska and western Canada. They were cancelled once they got wind of the hijackings.

My thoughts: My source is Michael Ruppert (in Crossing the Rubicon, p. 339), which cites a Toronto Sun December 9, 2001 article. He also quotes FAA chair Jane Garvey as saying that as many as 11 aircraft were out of radio contact or off course that day

You really need to improve your reading comprehension skills. On page 310 Ruppert claimed without attribution that blips were injected into the screens of “the North East Air Dense Sector” (pg 310) and FAA (pg 336) but the only source he cited (the Sun article) only metioned blips as part of a NORAD exercise “in Alaska and northern Canada.” And confirmed that as soon as they found out about the hijackinga the operation “is called off. Any simulated information, what’s known as an “inject” is purged from the screens…” (pg 339)

http://books.google.com/books?id=ezyLJrAu1SIC&pg=PA517&lpg=PA517&dq=%22In+1994,+Jose+Trias+met+with+a+friend+in+Houston,+Texas%22&source=bl&ots=gfyWfG0zeE&sig=e3gr6MdMMoivcz1otV_xK-5aGeg&hl=en&ei=-S3MTKjbLcG78gaKwIimAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=#v=onepage&q=blips&f=true

http://www.newsociety.com/titleimages/rub_war.pdf

As I demonstrated here Ruppert is NOT a reliable source http://lies-of-the-truth-movement.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-many-errors-can-truther-squeeze.html

The passengers landed safely and the lists show mostly false names for the passengers.

More nonsense based on zero evidence and incredibly offensive.

My thoughts: Before anyone can possibly be rightfully offended, we would have to know the truth about what happened to the passengers. Your statement is either premature or wrong.

We do know what happened to them but just as there are people who question the Apollo landings, Holocaust and Evolution there are people who question what happened to the people on those planes.

Another question unanswered by no planers is why make the plot so bizarrely complex?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are a no planer because you believe no planes were involved in the crashes but since are willing to admit the United flights actually existed if you prefer I’ll refer to you as a 2 planer.

Len, before we go on, I want to discuss this statement that you made (above).

When did I say that no planes were involved in the crashes?

If you mean that I say that none of the named planes - Flights 11, 175, 77 and 93 - were involved in the crashes - that is true.

If you say otherwise, I recommend you go to my essay and re-read page 20.

Dean

Edited by Dean Hartwell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now