John McAdams and Judyth Baker

[Kirk Gallaway]

Michael said:

Kirk - I'm curious.  That line at the end of your post about Sparky Rubenstein.  Did Baker actually say that in a book or something? If so, that should make a lot of alarm bells go off, but I guess people like Josephs are willing to just look away.

Michael, Thank God it didn't take me too long to find it. Ok, It turns out it's not a direct quote, but it's on film at 16:41 below. Obviously that alone, could never be the basis of a total repudiation. But it sure smells to me.

Andrew, I thought she also said something about being on the verge of "curing cancer" which I thought was laughable. And  she recounted her moral qualms when she finds out that her cancer concoction was to be used on Fidel Castro. And of course, wasn't that Ruby's claim when he was in jail, that he had been injected with cancer cells?

I think she's a very intelligent, well read, creative, cunning person. who realized she could make a claim to have known or knew LHO and used other JFK assassination exotic story lines, and figured how her story could plausibly fit in. Then she filled in the story line with juicy dialog to portray Oswald in a most lucrative way. There really is very little unanswered about Lee and Judyth. . In fact as any good spy, Oswald went into great detail with Judyth, of the 3 possible sites where the ambush would occur. Andrew, You say it was Lee who was going to deliver the cancer injection to Castro?  What I thought was that Oswald was trying to foil a plot to kill the President, but realized he will probably be made the patsy. And in one last dramatic phone call with Judyth  he acknowledges they will probably never see each other again. Man it has everything!

Ferrie phones her later and tells her something went wrong, and he didn't expect Lee to be the patsy, but from now on, she has to shut up about everything, give up her career of curing cancer and just be a "plain vanilla girl." But she recalls Oswald told her to remember one name, "David Atlee Phillips".Bingo! There's the bone, the critical tie in for the JFK assassination researchers.

 

[Pamela Brown]

 As I see a couple of very interesting posts about Judyth, let me just share another aspect of my involvement with her.  I happened to be in New Orleans in early 1957 when the Garrison investigation broke in the press.  I had been following the assassination and felt this was truly important. I also instinctively felt that Garrison was probably on the right track and in the right place.  And so began an early fascination with NOLA in the summer of 1963.  But by the time I returned to NYC, where I was living, David Ferrie was dead.  I felt there was something fishy about that.  I watched Garrison on Johnny Carson and viewed the NBC White Paper.  I was horrified at what I was seeing.  Then, as the investigation came apart, I became concerned that the truth about the NOLA connection to the assassination might never come to light. 

So when Ed Haslam wrote Mary, Ferrie and the Monkey Virus (MF+TMV) in the early 90's I quickly found myself part of his cultish following.  He had created a fascinating parallel universe of questions and possibilities, coupled with very odd coincidences.  I also read Jimmie D's great Destiny Betrayed, and William Davy's Let Justice Be Done, Joan Mellon's Farewell to Justice.  I also read the 27vols of the H+E and the Clay Shaw trial transcripts. I was hooked.  I still am.

And so, when Judyth came roaring across the research community I could not help thinking that if there was any possibility that she was basically doing her best to tell the truth amid betrayal and misunderstanding, I wanted to know that.  There were so many gaps in Marina's testimony to the WC and in the Clay Shaw Trial that I wanted answers.  If there was any chance Judyth had them, I wanted to know.  I went back and forth, trying to figure everything out.  I did my best to contact Marina too, but those close to her said she 'refused to talk to me.'  I could hardly blame her.  

And so, I was sincerely looking for Judyth.  I was looking for the truth.  What I found was so complicated I was not easily able to assimilate it.  And so, my thinking evolved to where it is now -- that Judyth has deliberately positioned herself as a counterfeit Marina in order to take the attention off of Marina, possibly because she recanted.  But my journey, no matter how fraught with conflict or how frustrating, has been exciting and invigorating. I would not change any of it.  And so, I say the same thing to you -- if you are interested in NOLA in the summer of 1963 and you have Judyth's books (otherwise, I would suggest trying to borrow them from a library or person so that you can decide if they are right for you) and you find them interesting, I would not say to steer clear of them as you can dig into a lot of significant areas through them.  But read the other really great books about NOLA too.  You will find that these authors, such as Jimmie D. who posts here are doing everything possible to be responsible with documentation and, when asked, will give you good information without runarounds. I would also heartily suggest you forget the 'believe' or 'not believe' mindset, because it won't work with Judyth. She sees herself as smarter than everyone else, and, when it comes to whipping up NOLA documentation that suits her purposes (regardless of what it may actually mean) she has no equal imo.  In order to keep from getting sucked into her web I heartily suggest that you simply keep an open mind and check out her references, as you are doing in this thread.  Somethings will be true, some things might be true, and others will be patently false.  So, treat the voyage as a mystery, as I did,  and see where it leads.

Ironically, there is another woman with a very interesting, imo, NOLA story to share.  Her name is Dr. Adele Edison.  Here is her Spartacus bio: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKedisen.htm I met her and viewed her NID presentation in 1998 and did not know what to think.  She also phoned me and we talked at length.  Adele had foreknowledge of LHO's apartment location and that JFK would be killed. Unlike Judyth, Adele never tried to tie everything together. Nor did she attempt to profit from her experiences, even though they must have been traumatic.  She went to the ARRB and then presented all her papers to JFKLancer, where I am sure they are available for research.  Adele refused to have anything to do with Judyth.  

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Pamela Brown

[Joe Bauer]

I just viewed the The Men Who Killed Kennedy documentary episode 8 posted by KG.

At one point I became aware of a statement by Judyth Baker regards her being introduced to Jack Ruby by Oswald which someone on this thread had earlier presented dishonestly as a "quote" by Judyth.

 A quote that I naively assumed was documented and that made me doubt Judyth Baker and her story again.

The quote was supposedly of Oswald saying to Judyth...  " I want you to meet my friend Sparky Rubenstein."

I had responded that if Judyth Baker had actually stated this quote, which I could never envision Oswald saying, that it just undermines her story even more.

Maybe Baker does state this preposterous quote of her "Sparky Rubenstein" introduction story in another interview or her books.

If so I'd like to know which one.

But in this TMWKK video JVB doesn't say this quote at all.  What she says is, after reminiscing about her dog named "Sparky", Oswald and Ferry mentioned another person to her named "Sparky." A real hot head who couldn't control his anger. They were referring to Jack Ruby ( Jack Rubenstein.).

Even though the documentary says she did meet Ruby in Ferries apartment, nowhere in this video does JVB relate this Oswald-Ruby introduction story using the quote stated by this earlier poster.

If this poster knows of this other Ruby "Sparky" introduction Oswald quote being used by JVB in another venue, I sure would like to know which one.

If he can't provide us ( me ) with this I must say I am much more inclined to wonder how many other times JVB has been misquoted by her most ardent detractors. 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/4/2017 at 10:53 AM, Kirk Gallaway said:

And while my tendency has been not to pile on. Now Pam has this unbendable mindset that Donald Trump is now an innocent victim of this same dark, evil conspiracy, and that any doubt is not worthy of a civil discussion. (Even leaving aside any discussions of legalities.) In view of all of his words and actions and broken promises.It is beyond me, why anybody would believe anything he says. Pam, I hope it takes you less than 7 years to admit you've been fooled again.

There are real things to fear, other than a pro military-intelligence  "deep state" coup (that can only benefit from Trump's increase in military spending), like the gutting of everything else..

Kirk,

With all due respect, what are you rambling on about here?  And why in this thread? I am tempted to ask what color the sky is in your world, but will restrain myself...

[Kirk Gallaway]

Pamela,I was merely responding to this previous rant of yours.

  With all due respect, Mr. Moyers and Mr. Blackmon don't seem to know know President Trump very well. Everyone has the knives out and seem to be proclaiming victory way too early, imo.  First of all, just how long do you think it will take Pres. Trump to claim that Pres. Obama set this whole thing up ahead of time just to sandbag him?  Secondly, how long do you think it will take him to demand that the Democrats and Hillary be given an equal investigation into THEIR ties with the Russians, which everyone knows exists.  And then what? :-0

And what is this rant about? My feeling is that if you weigh in on a topic here, and it might seem to me you're raising a lot more questions then your answering, or might be deluded, (or to use your metaphor, maybe a real strange colored sky!) or maybe misinformed. It's perfectly fair to ask you to explain what you're inferring here, in a civil way.. And I've yet to hear from you. I can ask the questions again if you like.

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Kirk Gallaway

[Kirk Gallaway]

4 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

 As I see a couple of very interesting posts about Judyth, let me just share another aspect of my involvement with her.  I happened to be in New Orleans in early 1957 when the Garrison investigation broke in the press.  I had been following the assassination and felt this was truly important. I also instinctively felt that Garrison was probably on the right track and in the right place.  And so began an early fascination with NOLA in the summer of 1963.  But by the time I returned to NYC, where I was living, David Ferrie was dead.  I felt there was something fishy about that.  I watched Garrison on Johnny Carson and viewed the NBC White Paper.  I was horrified at what I was seeing.  Then, as the investigation came apart, I became concerned that the truth about the NOLA connection to the assassination might never come to light. 

So when Ed Haslam wrote Mary, Ferrie and the Monkey Virus (MF+TMV) in the early 90's I quickly found myself part of his cultish following.  He had created a fascinating parallel universe of questions and possibilities, coupled with very odd coincidences.  I also read Jimmie D's great Destiny Betrayed, and William Davy's Let Justice Be Done, Joan Mellon's Farewell to Justice.  I also read the 27vols of the H+E and the Clay Shaw trial transcripts. I was hooked.  I still am.

And so, when Judyth came roaring across the research community I could not help thinking that if there was any possibility that she was basically doing her best to tell the truth amid betrayal and misunderstanding, I wanted to know that.  There were so many gaps in Marina's testimony to the WC and in the Clay Shaw Trial that I wanted answers.  If there was any chance Judyth had them, I wanted to know.  I went back and forth, trying to figure everything out.  I did my best to contact Marina too, but those close to her said she 'refused to talk to me.'  I could hardly blame her.  

And so, I was sincerely looking for Judyth.  I was looking for the truth.  What I found was so complicated I was not easily able to assimilate it.  And so, my thinking evolved to where it is now --  But my journey, no matter how fraught with conflict or how frustrating, has been exciting and invigorating. I would not change any of it.  And so, I say the same thing to you -- if you are interested in NOLA in the summer of 1963 and you have Judyth's books (otherwise, I would suggest trying to borrow them from a library or person so that you can decide if they are right for you) and you find them interesting, you can dig into a lot of significant areas through them.  But I would suggest you forget the 'believe' or 'not believe' mindset, because it won't work with Judyth.  I suggest that you simply keep an open mind and check out her references, as you are doing in this thread.  Somethings will be true, some things might be true, and others will be patently false.  So, treat the voyage as a mystery and see where it leads.

Ironically, there is another woman with a very interesting, imo, NOLA story to share.  Her name is Dr. Adele Edison.  Here is her Spartacus bio: http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKedisen.htm I met her and viewed her NID presentation in 1998 and did not know what to think.  She also phoned me and we talked at length.  Adele had foreknowledge of LHO's apartment location and that JFK would be killed. Unlike Judyth, Adele never tried to tie everything together. Nor did she attempt to profit from her experiences, even though they must have been traumatic.  She went to the ARRB and then presented all her papers to JFKLancer, where I am sure they are available for research.  Adele refused to have anything to do with Judyth.  

 

Pamela,I appreciate what you've written here. I'm happy for you that you take your 7 years with JVB with a philosophical outlook.But in the past, you've seemed quite bitter. What was your purpose in bumping this thread?

 

that Judyth has deliberately positioned herself as a counterfeit Marina in order to take the attention off of Marina, possibly because she recanted.

You've said this more than once.I sense that the "counterfeit Marina" is important to you. Trying to ferret out her aims is not important to me.I see them much more simply.

But I would suggest you forget the 'believe' or 'not believe' mindset, because it won't work with Judyth.  I suggest that you simply keep an open mind and check out her references, as you are doing in this thread.  Somethings will be true, some things might be true, and others will be patently false.  So, treat the voyage as a mystery and see where it leads.

So accept the lies with truth? I don't share your relativistic view on this.I'm sorry Pamela, I see it as you spent 7 years with a money grubbing fraud, who has devalued the work of legitimate JFK Assassination researchers.who are trying to seek a legitimate audience.I can't really accept this.Once you abandon your search for the truth,.It's all lost. This isn't meant to be a voyage or a mystery novel. A novel would have been a more respectable way for her to go.It's interesting you could have just substituted Trump for Judyth in that first sentence.But i digress.

 

 

[Michael Walton]

So accept the lies with truth? I don't share your relativistic view on this.I'm sorry Pamela, I see it as you spent 7 years with a money grubbing fraud.

My thoughts exactly. Blame goes both ways too. Yes Baker is a fraud but there's  equal blame for those who fall for it.

What did PT say about suckers?

 

[Joe Bauer]

In my earlier post I refer to JVB's sister as " Debbee" as I saw this name mentioned in PB's post.

I have searched for JVB's family background and only see the one sister "Lynda" mentioned.

Can someone provide me with a simple link to JVB's familial history?

In the Spartacus JVB piece it mentions that JVB's sister "Lynda" stated that JVB told her of her 1963 NO affair with Oswald in 1964. 

If "Debbee" is "Lynda"  ( or even if not ) my questions about any sibling of JVB who backs up Judyth's affair story with a public confirmation that they were made aware of this story directly from JVB at that early 1964 time are the same.

Since Ms. Brown spent 7 years in some degrees of communication with JVB I assume she has some knowledge of the JVB sister who may be relevant in the area of JVB credibilty and that is why I asked her the questions I posted earlier.  If she doesn't want to answer my questions regarding JVB's sister that is fine. I would however appreciate any links that may provide more information about JVB's sister or other siblings that have in any way commented on JVB in the realm of her Oswald affair tale.

[Kirk Gallaway]

17 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I just viewed the The Men Who Killed Kennedy documentary episode 8 posted by KG.

At one point I became aware of a statement by Judyth Baker regards her being introduced to Jack Ruby by Oswald which someone on this thread had earlier presented dishonestly as a "quote" by Judyth.

 A quote that I naively assumed was documented and that made me doubt Judyth Baker and her story again.

The quote was supposedly of Oswald saying to Judyth...  " I want you to meet my friend Sparky Rubenstein."

I had responded that if Judyth Baker had actually stated this quote, which I could never envision Oswald saying, that it just undermines her story even more.

Maybe Baker does state this preposterous quote of her "Sparky Rubenstein" introduction story in another interview or her books.

If so I'd like to know which one.

But in this TMWKK video JVB doesn't say this quote at all.  What she says is, after reminiscing about her dog named "Sparky", Oswald and Ferry mentioned another person to her named "Sparky." A real hot head who couldn't control his anger. They were referring to Jack Ruby ( Jack Rubenstein.).

Even though the documentary says she did meet Ruby in Ferries apartment, nowhere in this video does JVB relate this Oswald-Ruby introduction story using the quote stated by this earlier poster.

If this poster knows of this other Ruby "Sparky" introduction Oswald quote being used by JVB in another venue, I sure would like to know which one.

If he can't provide us ( me ) with this I must say I am much more inclined to wonder how many other times JVB has been misquoted by her most ardent detractors. 

 

The person who made that reference to a quote was me Joe, and I found that segment, and acknowledged it wasn't Judyth directly quoting Lee.. Mea Culpa.

But maybe you should listen again, as the only inaccuracy in my recollected account is that Judyth said both Ferrie and Oswald said they wanted to introduce "Sparky Rubenstien" to Judyth.

JVB:They said that they wanted to introduce to me another Sparky, also a dog, who couldn't control himself. This individual's name was "Sparky Rubenstien". Is that documented enough,Joe? It is her own account. And according to her story , he did visit to check out their cancer research.

Tell me Joe, in all your research, all the books you've read, or accounts of witnesses, acquaintances, Dallas cops, mafia figures, notes from researchers, have you ever heard of Jack Ruby referred to as "Sparky Rubenstien' by anyone other than Judyth Baker?

That was my point. Just a bit too "inside" for me. 

 

[Pamela Brown]

17 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Pamela,I appreciate what you've written here. I'm happy for you that you take your 7 years with JVB with a philosophical outlook.But in the past, you've seemed quite bitter. What was your purpose in bumping this thread?

 

that Judyth has deliberately positioned herself as a counterfeit Marina in order to take the attention off of Marina, possibly because she recanted.

You've said this more than once.I sense that the "counterfeit Marina" is important to you. Trying to ferret out her aims is not important to me.I see them much more simply.

But I would suggest you forget the 'believe' or 'not believe' mindset, because it won't work with Judyth.  I suggest that you simply keep an open mind and check out her references, as you are doing in this thread.  Somethings will be true, some things might be true, and others will be patently false.  So, treat the voyage as a mystery and see where it leads.

So accept the lies with truth? I don't share your relativistic view on this.I'm sorry Pamela, I see it as you spent 7 years with a money grubbing fraud, who has devalued the work of legitimate JFK Assassination researchers.who are trying to seek a legitimate audience.I can't really accept this.Once you abandon your search for the truth,.It's all lost. This isn't meant to be a voyage or a mystery novel. A novel would have been a more respectable way for her to go.It's interesting you could have just substituted Trump for Judyth in that first sentence.But i digress.

 

 

Kirk, 

Thank you for not taking egregious liberties with my statements.  You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree. I am not about to tell people to not research Judyth's claims, as she tells a good story that is interesting to many people who might not otherwise even be drawn into the assassination.  I think there is a lot to be learned from Judyth.  In fact, anyone who goes down the rabbit hole and ends up taking apart Judyth's claims may then find negotiating the lies and misinformation in the WCR a piece of cake.  Both are disinformation. They may also be able to easily negotiate Fetzer's books, which contain both actual research and lots of rabbit trails. But go ahead and stick to a heavy-handed, old-school mindset. You may end up going around in circles deciding who is 'credible' and who is not and swallowing their story whole in your 'search for truth', but that's certainly your choice.

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

18 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Pamela,I was merely responding to this previous rant of yours.

  With all due respect, Mr. Moyers and Mr. Blackmon don't seem to know know President Trump very well. Everyone has the knives out and seem to be proclaiming victory way too early, imo.  First of all, just how long do you think it will take Pres. Trump to claim that Pres. Obama set this whole thing up ahead of time just to sandbag him?  Secondly, how long do you think it will take him to demand that the Democrats and Hillary be given an equal investigation into THEIR ties with the Russians, which everyone knows exists.  And then what? :-0

And what is this rant about? My feeling is that if you weigh in on a topic here, and it might seem to me you're raising a lot more questions then your answering, or might be deluded, (or to use your metaphor, maybe a real strange colored sky!) or maybe misinformed. It's perfectly fair to ask you to explain what you're inferring here, in a civil way.. And I've yet to hear from you. I can ask the questions again if you like.

 

Why are you cross-posting this from another thread?  Where is a link to that thread?

[Pamela Brown]

14 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

So accept the lies with truth? I don't share your relativistic view on this.I'm sorry Pamela, I see it as you spent 7 years with a money grubbing fraud.

My thoughts exactly. Blame goes both ways too. Yes Baker is a fraud but there's  equal blame for those who fall for it.

What did PT say about suckers?

 

I didn't 'fall for it'.  I was forewarned, and I kept an open mind.  What is this 'blame game'?  Have you never heard of intellectual curiousity? 

BTW, I don't know you.  Do you mind telling me what original research have you contributed? 

[Joe Bauer]

KG  ...  I have never read of anyone personally addressing Ruby by the nickname "Sparky."

I "have" read some account ( Warren Commission or somewhere else?) where someone mentioned Ruby getting this nickname in his younger days and how he hated being called this.

I appreciate your clarification regards the quote in your earlier post.

But to me there is a significant difference in credibility in an actual quote referenced to Oswald by Judyth Baker implying she was "actually introduced" to Ruby with that quoted line from Oswald as it was happening....versus Oswald and Ferry telling Judyth "they wanted to introduce me to another Sparky, also a dog who couldn't control himself"   which clearly indicates they said this name "Sparky"  to her before she actually met Ruby.

To me, JVB's account of this is in the later context is more believable and not totally preposperous versus the first context.

And if Oswald had actually said "I want you to meet Sparky Rubenstein" while he was formally introducing him to Judyth, I think Ruby might have instantly punched Oswald in the face.

I would like to retract my reference to your earlier quote as "dishonest" and instead re-frame my view of it as a matter of differing opinions.

 

JB

Edited June 7, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/5/2017 at 3:16 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Pamela Brown, you mention JVB's sister Debbee as confirming JVB did tell her about her ( JVB's) affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Could you tell us the approximate time frame - month, year -  in which Debbee was told this by JVB ... according to Debbee ?

Did Debbee say this to you personally...or someone else?

Do you believe this affair story sharing claim by JVB's sister Debbee? If so why?

Is this Debbee of good and honest character  ( your feelings of such ) from what you may have seen or heard of her yourself in your years of contact with JVB?

If you believe Debbee's claim of being told of her sister's affair with LHO at such an early date after Oswald was murdered,  does your belief of this effect your take on the possibility of it actually being true?

What were Debbee's personal feelings about her sister Judyth?  Did Debbee ever give any hints that she thought her sister was anything close to the views of Judyth's worst critics?

Do you think Anna Lewis was coached ( and not telling the truth )  in her interview as shown on You Tube?

If as you mentioned about your last contact with Anna Lewis that she stated she feared for her personal safety and was not wanting public exposure because of her fears...what do you think Anna Lewis feels has caused these threats and who she feels are behind them? Or, is she simply a very insecure or maybe even mentally unstable person who  is creating this threat scenario in her own mind more than true reality.

Thanks ahead of time for any response to my questions.

 

Judyth has a tendency to corrupt everyone who gets involved with her.  I did not talk to Debbee; I did see a video of her talking about Judyth and Lee.   I think it was done by Wim Dankbaar.  Her statements made sense to me, whether or not Judyth really did have an affair with LHO.  Judyth saw her name in lights the moment she saw LHO on TV and realized they had both worked at Reilly.  

I found Anna to make sense as well.  I was puzzled by her situation and the fact that, if she was telling the truth, her husband, David Lewis, who was interviewed by Jim Garrison, lied by omission if he had any awareness of Anna's seeing Judyth with Lee and Mancuso's.  I did not ask her about that, though. 

 

[Michael Clark]

delete

 

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Michael Clark