Bob Harris and the Battle of The Bulge

[Jack White]

Discuss anything you want. All of your studies so far represent some of the good studies of the 70s and 80s. In the 90s

there was an awakening to alteration and fabrication. You should study new works on the subject instead of reinventing

30 year old observations.

Jack

[Jim Phelps]

I think what Jack is telling everyone, is that all is altered. Nothing can be considered useful. All evidence is moot. There is no real evidence. Just illusions, fakes, remakes.

He says: "Those of us who have studied the images can DEMOLISH any acceptance by any court of law."

So, there is nothing left to discuss. You are captured by a system so superior at getting away with the crime that all you get to do is nothing. Perhaps run in circles. Go read that everything is faked. The End.

Resistance is futile. Remember, anything and everything Jack will prove to be useless.

Your only hope is to pray to those that have the unaltered documents. But those might be released until when you are dead.

I guess those in Egypt heard the same thing----then they went to the streets to protest.

So, besides qualifying every single item as altered. What plan do you have except to dismiss anything and everything as useless? Jack suggests only that you read and learn that all is altered. A real nowhere game. All is a vapor reality on JFK records.

So, do what Jack does---hang around JFK lists and say it is all faked information.

But I do like original thinking and each person doing their own free thinking.

That is a good idea on testing the film to look for the lighting use differences, aka color temp like issues.

I'd suggest someone put that on the table to be tested.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Jack White]

I think what Jack is telling everyone, is that all is altered. Nothing can be considered useful. All evidence is moot. There is no evidence.

So, there is nothing left to discuss. You are captured by a system so superior at getting away with the crime that all you get to do is nothing. Perhaps run in circles.

Resistance is futile. Remember, anything and everything Jack will prove to be useless.

Your only hope is to prey to those that have the unaltered documents. But those might be released when you are dead.

I guess those in Egypt heard the same thing----then they went to the streets to protest.

So, besides qualifying every single item as altered. What plan do you have except to dismiss anything and everything as useless? Jack suggests only that you read and learn that all is altered. Then, you are stuck forever.

The evidence to the contrary is NOT useless. The alterations and fabrications ARE EVIDENCE of manipulation by governmental

agencies which had custody of the evidence. Studying what is IN the images compared to what SHOULD BE in the images constitutes

powerful evidence of malfeasance which points at the guilty.

People who suddenly appear on forums claiming to "know it all" and start trashing those who have studied the evidence for nearly 50 years

are to be viewed with suspicion. This particular forum is infested with them. Some have even become moderators. Some have been tossed

off of forums for their suspicious attitudes. Has Mr. Phelps been tossed off of any forums lately?

Jack

[Jim Phelps]

Jack,

So, what if you can prove alterations. How are you going to know what was supposed to be there before it was altered?

Who do you sue as the culprit, as everyone points the finger to someone perhaps dead or they just don't know. Who are the guilty might never get solved.

Where does it lead?

If there is some realistic game plan to move forward, then toss out the strategies in place of saying this is worthless persuits.

I am looking at all the claims and doing my own research on things and not playing follow the leader. If something is relevant, then OK. But, I am not finding anything Earth shattering so far. I see touch up, splices, and a lot of cheating on these alteration claims.

I've read most of the stuff on Z-film alterations and still looking. But I also come at things from different angles and find that it sure looks like one can use Zapruder to show that two shots hit JFK's head and the X-ray damage matches.

So, there appears another way. The Govt swears these evidence things in the archives are real, so make use of those certifications. Show the two shots to the head, show the X-rays match, and bingo progress. It has to make sense to the common man, and if that clicks then progress.

So, I see two paths forward and you see only one, yours.

I'd much rather see a hundred thousand people reading and asking questions on JFK and reading the articles and sifting the claims, than ten of you old guy sitting around and pouring water on anything other that it is all rigged and fixed and we'll prove anything you do with that fixed and rigged information as useless.

So, if you all are going to prove all is altered, all evidence is faked. Just what kind of response do you expect from that? The Govt rolls over and admits there was a conspiracy and it was so large it faked all the data. Sounds like a Catch 22, to go nowhere.

The Govt ofically admits there was a conspiracy---WOW. Just what we 3/4 of the country knows already without all the hoopla that they have to admit it.

What is the end game? Or you don't really have one.

And the end game is just keep down the interests by telling them the net result is you are helpless.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Greg Burnham]

Your studies are good but about where some of us were 30 years ago. ALL IMAGES AND FILMS are suspect in some manner and cannot

be relied on as proof of anything. You need to get up to speed on the latest research. You must FIRST establish the authenticity of

images before they can be used in court. Those of us who have studied the images can DEMOLISH any acceptance by any court of law.

Jack

I'll take the Pepsi Challenge on that one, Jack.

Please point out the proven fakery in the following (and by proven I mean that which you could establish in a court of law.)

1) Betzner 3

2) Willis 5

3) Altgens 6

4) Zapruder film frames 186 thru 255. Limo stops and head wound dots don't count.

Jack said that all films and photos are SUSPECT. He did not say that they (your list) are proven to be faked.

[Greg Burnham]

Good Morning Mr. Phelps,

A common instruction issued by judges to the jury when a witness has perjured himself is the option to REJECT that

witness's testimony IN ITS ENTIRETY.

Once tainted in a single area, the testimony is POTENTIALLY tainted anywhere within its totality. It is unreasonable to

require that jurors determine which parts of a perjurious testimony are true and which are false.

If there is a single instance of proved Zapruder fakery, as an example, the entire film is suspect. Or, better yet...If there

is such fakery present, the entire conclusion reached by--and the methods employed by--the "authorities" also become

suspect because, in this instance, they are responsible for the "perjurious" evidence having been introduced in the first

place.

[Jim Phelps]

Good Evening Mr. Burnham,

Lets just say someone tries to qualify or dismiss the Zapruder Film as evidence. Everyone says they don't know, can't comment. Someone tampered with it, and they don't know when of how, and all the evidence chain is unknown.

So, if it is proven to be Zapruder Film is all faked, what is next? No more Zapruder, you distroy the main photo identity icon for all of America that saw that film as reality.

Guess what happens next----all the JFK movement dies---instantly. You all will have killed even the public's icon for the assassination.

I am seeing people painting themselves into a corner with no way out, if they were serious on seeking justice for JFK.

Tell me what is to be gained with your method.

I see a pure dead end for the whole JFK movement. Where does this game end? Into a brick wall!!

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Greg Burnham]

Good Evening Mr. Burnham,

Lets just say someone tries to qualify or dismiss the Zapruder Film as evidence. Everyone says they don't know, can't comment. Someone tampered with it, and they don't know when of how, and all the evidence chain is unknown.

So, if it is proven to be Zapruder Film is all faked, what is next? No more Zapruder, you distroy the main photo identity icon for all of America that saw that film as reality.

Guess what happens next----all the JFK movement dies---instantly. You all will have killed even the public's icon for the assassination.

I am seeing people painting themselves into a corner with no way out, if they were serious on seeking justice for JFK.

Tell me what is to be gained with your method.

I see a pure dead end for the whole JFK movement. Where does this game end? Into a brick wall!!

It is not a game.

[Jack White]

This is NOT about keeping a "movement alive". Who wants a "live" movement based on faked evidence? This IS about a search for truth.

Jack

[Jack White]

Just wondering: Does Mr. Phelps have a connection to Mission Impossible or the Y-12 National Security Nuclear Complex at Oak Ridge, just west of Knoxville?

Sometimes one's occupation influences perceptions. This tape will self destruct in five seconds...4...3...2...1...pftttt.

Jack

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jack White

[Jim Phelps]

Now everyone gets to see why I called this listing The Battle Of The Bulge, as I knew that would set off a huge rise in those trying to avoid seeing that artifact in the Zapruder Film. I think Battle of the Bulge is really well chosen.

So, it looks like the film is to self destruct very soon, by your commandment of who wants a faked film. By design, this little group that wants its credibilty destroyed, if one tiny piece is altered.

It appears the game is to show any little piece is altered, then the whole thing is faked, not credible, useless. I don't buy that plan.

Their game, It will be shown to be useless in any legal proceeding, and the end game appears to be kill the Zapruder Film. But, the real issue is that while little bits might be off, there is still enough to be really useful. I don't choose to toss the baby out with the dirty bath water.

With their plan, the Icon for JFK's demise goes into the garbage can. Zapruder Film is aimed at the trash can of history. So brilliant.

Just like the old Peter Graves Mission Impossible series, "PPooff". They are all happy and say, who wants a fake film. But it isn't all fake. The Film will be not self destructed, but destructed by your goal to distroy it as having any credibilty by detection of any alteration, large or small.

Which means we get a bunch of old guys sitting around going, oh well, we sure pulled that one off. Now we don't have to show that ugly film no more.

So, go do it. I think we'll find you end up with a handfull of air. No movement for what people can't visualize.

In the mean time, I find there are lots of useful pieces, contrary to your beliefs or goals. There is much to be had from the Zapruder Film and it is pretty easy to overcome.

Besides, this Forum really isn't the Perry Mason show, it is a JFK discussion group. And I like looking at everything, even all the good and useful parts of Zapruder. It sorts out a few of the facts, like that bugle thing. Which is really what this discredit the Z-film appears to be about.

I do think the only folks to be neutralized are yourselfs. No X-rays to show, no archive data, no films as they are all bad. You have a handful of vapor. From there on out---all you get to do is handwaving. A Simply marvelous plan.

I like your alls position of being totally talking about everything is faked, just vapor logic.

In the mean time, there is lots of real substance left for those of us that don't follow the silly rules about one little faked area makes the whole apple bad or the banana not worth eating.

I and others that don't follow your logic will have a feast, and you, a famon. And as you toss Z into the trash can, you each shortly follow it. I digg it.

Play that tape and lets watch you all go pooof. It will be entertaining.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Jack White]

So, it looks like the film is to self destruct very soon. By design of this little group that wants its credibilty destroyed.

It appears the game is to show any little piece is altered, then the whole thing is faked, not credible, useless.

It will be shown to be useless in any legal proceeding, and the end game appears to be kill the Zapruder Film. But, the real issue is that while little bits might be off, there is still enough to be really useful.

with their plan, the Icon for JFK's demise goes into the garbage can. Zapruder Film is aimed at the trash can of history.

Just like the old Peter Graves Mission Impossible series. The Film will be not self destructed, but destructed by your goal to distroy it as having any credibilty.

Which means we get a bunch of old guys sitting around going, oh well, we sure pulled that one off.

So, go do it. I think we'll find you end up with a handfull of air. No movement for what people can't visualize.

In the mean time, I find there are lots of useful pieces, contrary to your beliefs or goals. There is much to be had from the Zapruder Film and it is pretty easy to overcome.

Phelps simply knows NOTHING about the Zapruder film and it fabrications. He needs to self destruct. He is living in the past.

Jack

PS...and about Oak Ridge? I note the question was avoided.

[Jim Phelps]

Jack,

You do realize this is the JFK discussion list, and "Mission Impossible" really isn't part of that area of discussion. It is considered to be off topic, and just what is your purpose in tossing that out there? Also, Oak Ridge isn't a topic, unless it applies directly toward JFK, as in the Oswald Register Sheet, or his visits to Oak Ridge. So, that is off topic. I know you can't stand it when you can't manipulate, it shows.

Your alls little destruct the Z-film plan reminds me of the days when President Eisenhower discovered that there were some very serious problems in the Bible's teachings. He noticed that lots of things were misleading, not correct for today, and lots embellished enough to be not true. That even the Peachers were oft times manipulating things too much off center.

But he thought and he just could not fathom the depth of the pain that the people would feel if the very roots of their comfort blanket of teachings was tossed out into the street as junk. He just could not bring himself to toss out this system that gave them all so much hope, so much expectation to be stewards for a better life, all that faith that each tomorrow will come and love surrounds them. IKE saw and considered the good. He chose never to debunk a good, but to cultivate and direct its greater good.

So, IKE considered he had separation of church and state and logic would rule that day and the greater logic of all is the people still had hope, trust in tomorrow, and over time they'd learn what he learned. He chose to work around the small issues, in place of placing the whole country into a funk, with no hope, with now spirit of greater things than themselves. He wisely chose the path that resulted in the greater benefit, and that ruled the day.

But, I don't think perhaps you all have that sort of wisdom, as Ike wisely chose, to keep lots of the good and work on the small problems as people progressed past the tiny stumbling blocks toward the greater understanding of it all. IKE didn't see things as just black or white---he was pleased to work with a billion Shades of Gray and move into a Zillion Living Colors, without distroying anything.

He considered it unwise to distroy what you already had, despite some little defects, and chose to preserve and build upon, without distroying anything along the way. Ike was one wise fella, at least for that little idea.

I don't seem to find those qualities around here?

So, you all have your debunked Zapruder Film and since it is all faked, all you get to do is handwave from here on out. I think some are into their own self aggrandizations, by going to the extremes to appear right.

In the mean time, I get to play Zapruder in a Zillion Colors, preserving what is good, and most of all exposing that Bulge as what rules the day.

I just love this little "Battle of the Bulge" title. So fitting, so catchy a phrase. Everyone will think about seeing that bulge as being important, and question why you want to disappear it.

This really has you going, doesn't it Jack, as you have to bring up all these distractions of Mission Impossible, Y-12, a super delux Green Screen Weather girl production, and anything you can come up with for the distraction from any degree of focus on that Bulge seen in Living Color pretty clearly on the Zapruder Film. And you know that building upon that one visible artifact will make all those dark shadow games of the "Zapruder Film's Debunkers" seen as pure nonsense of guessing in the dark.

People are going to believe what they can see, not some little dark spot from the Sun's shading. An old saying, "Seeing is Believing."

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

All,

I had the displeasure of dealing with this guy on a new assassination research forum on facebook. His arguments were invariably fallacious, most commonly simply begging the question by taking for granted the authenticity of the Zapruder film. I had to slug it out with him day after day until at one point the moderators saw through him and gave him the boot. About the Zapruder film,

ON THE FAKING OF THE ZAPRUDER FILM:

"New Proof of JFK Film Fakery"

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_jim_fetz_080205_new_proof_of_jfk_fil.htm

"Mary in the Street - Revisited"

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Moorman/

"Zapruder JFK Film impeached by Moorman JFK Polaroid"

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Zapruder-JFK-Film-Impeache-by-Jim-Fetzer-090324-48.html

"US Government Official: JFK Cover-Up, Film Fabrication"

http://www.intrepidreport.com/archives/994

"The JFK 'Head Shot' Paradox"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/fetzer1.1.1.html

"Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?"

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2011/01/whos-telling-truth-clint-hill-or.html

"Did Zapruder film 'the Zapruder film'?"

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2011/03/did-zapruder-film-zapruder-film.html

Plus John Costella has a nice tutorial into to Z-film fakery:

"THE JFK ASSASSINATION FILM HOAX: AN INTRODUCTION"

http://assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/

and there is a 66-part series about the Duluth conference I organized under

the title, "Zapruder Fakery", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSghy2TkIY

which should provide enough ammunition for anyone who wants to know why this

guy is wrong. But he is not simply wrong. He is clearly on a mission that has nothing

to do with serious JFK research. I simply can't abide him. I am not going to replicate

my past experience dealing with him. It was a waste of time. I already gave at the office.

Well Jack,

I do think we might have captured why you are on the JFK issue:

Citation from Jack White:

"Those of us who have studied the images can DEMOLISH any acceptance by any court of law."

So, everyone go home---Jack is going to destroy anything and everthing you have to say from any bit of information on the JFK assassination.

But, we are still going to talk about the issues and discuss them. I hope you won't mind.

Edited May 10, 2011 by James H. Fetzer

[Jim Phelps]

As one might notice there is a rather large effort to Debunk the Zapruder Film and just about all the others as rigged, tampered, and remade. Good list is now there to review and comment, and look at their various technical flaws. I am perfectly happy they believe all that, as it means they have no evidence of anything as a result. Every bit has been Debunked in their world of analysis. I suppose they can't even claim there is an assassination, so much has been Debunked. One of the DeBunker Folks even links the NASA Moon Landing type information as being all faked, which I seriously question.

One of the first issues to note is they don't seem to consider the issue of the bulge tells that two shots hit JFK's head, one from the rear and a short second later a shot to the temple. This is what Mr. Harris's detail provides us. The first shot leaves a small hole on the back of the skull and pops off a flap at the right temple area. The second shot to the temple entrance area pops off the top of the skull and some scalp and this is when the material hits the people to the rear of the limo. They seem to be stuck on one shot to the head.

Lots of their "proofs" are based upon people's memories and the last time I looked at what people remember of situaltions is that you can take ten people and ask them to recount what they saw and get ten different recollections, some of them extremely different than the others. People's memories, observation abilities, are subjective and have many faults. But they exploit this effect. Not very good science. Even Police Officers have to be trained how to accurately observe and report with reasonable accuracy.

There are lots of issues with their reconstructions. There is a lot of claiming they are the experts and have all these credentials. But do the work yourself and look at the finer issues and things don't always work as claimed.

And with all that---is there one place they talk about the Bulge at the back of JFK head that Mr. Harris brings to light so well. That second head shot effect that hits his right temple and blows back the scalp and the skull at the cow-lick area? Look for yourselves.

That one little bulge impact issue is the essential essence in the Zapruder Film, the missing piece that only came along with better video edit and higher film resolutions.

Can anyone imagine an Assassintion Research area on "Facebook", what a joke. Facebook is a gossip thing for kids. It is like Tweeting, a little comment list for kids. No archives, stuff disappears. Limited space for a sentence or two. That appears Mr. Fetzers kind of hang out and what he calls reseach area.

I don't think anyone can put forth that Facebook is an Assassination Reseach area, without a giggle.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Jim Phelps