The Two Oswald Phenomena Explained

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:21 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 12/24/2011 at 4:23 PM, Greg Parker said:

There are three key areas that make up the argument for two Oswalds:

1. Sightings of Oswald when he was known to be elsewhere.

As far as I can tell, no sighting of Oswald has ever been dismissed by the proponents of "Two Oswalds". Yet the sheer number and variety of them alone suggests some are

the products of fertile imaginations / planted phony stories (e.g. the DPD form showing Oswald and Ruby involved in a disturbance) ;

mistaken identity (e.g Ruby and Oswald at sex parties - my own research shows this was far more likely to have been Larry Crafard) or;

by deliberate impersonations on a ad hoc basis (e.g Mexico City)

2. Some people describing Oswald one way - others in a completely opposite way.

Asperger's would account for this, as Oswald would appear very intelligent to some depending on the immediate environment and circumstances - while others would describe him as superficial, repetitive, mechanical for the same reasons.

3. Changes in Oswald's appearance - particularly after he came back from USSR.

This can be accounted for in a very non-spooky way but I am holding it back for my book -- it is not guesswork. The proof of why his appearance was different is in the 26 volumes.

Just now came across this (IMHO) important thread which Greg Parker started back in 2011 ...

BUMP

 

Greg Parker cherry-picked the three least convincing among the arguments for two Oswalds. Here are some highly convincing classes of evidence that he ignored:

1. Documented evidence that proves Oswald was in two places at the same time. For example, attending two schools simultaneously and receiving grades from both. And being treated for VD in Japan while at the same time working in Taiwan. Of course, there were really two Oswalds in both cases.

2. Several items of evidence indicatng Oswald lost a tooth in a fist fight -- including a photo showing the lost tooth. And a dentist's notation that his dental bridge had failed -- again including a photo showing the dental bridge falling apart. This alone proves there were two Oswalds, as the one who shot Ruby had no missing teeth or bridges.

3. A 1958 USMC dental x-ray showing a missing molar -- this belonging to one of the Oswalds -- and a NON-MATCHING 1981 exhumed dental x-ray showing NO missing molar -- this belonging to the other Oswald. Again, his alone proves that there were two Oswalds.

I'm sure that Jim Hargrove could add to this list. This list covers only the evidence I am most familiar with.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

If Greg Parker worked half as hard to "Reopen the Kennedy Case" as he worked at trying to debunk H&L he might have actually accomplished something.  This thread is kind of amazing because, in the beginning, Parker works tirelessly at attacking H&L, and then, 20 or so pages later, he just gives up and surrenders.  Not sure why Tommy resurrected this old thread, but it is fascinating.

On 3/18/2018 at 1:32 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I'm sure that Jim Hargrove could add to this list. This list covers only the evidence I am most familiar with.

Sure, there are scores of other examples.  Let's consider a few one at a time, starting with this....

As most of us know, the record indicates that Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union from October 1959 through May 1962. How odd, then, that on January 20, 1961, more than a year before HARVEY returned from the Soviet Union, a man looking like him and using the name "Lee Oswald" visited the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans with another man. The two men spoke with Assistant Manager Oscar Deslatte and said they were interested in purchasing 10 Ford Econoline Trucks. As one of the men discussed the purchase with Deslatte, the other man, who identified himself as Joseph Moore, made a list of the equipment they desired on the trucks.

Deslatte went to his boss, truck manager Fred Sewell, and told him about the two men who wanted to purchase trucks and said they represented the "Free Democrats of Cuba or some such organization." Sewell told Deslatte to give the men a bid of $75 over their cost for the trucks. Deslatte and Sewell returned to Deslatte's desk and wrote out a bid form to Joseph Moore. As Deslatte was filling out the bid form, Joseph Moore and the other man began talking to both Deslatte and Sewell.

When Moore saw that Deslatte had written his name on the bid form he asked that the name be changed to "Friends of Democratic Cuba." Moore's friend looked at the form and said, "By the way, you'd better put my name down there because I'm the man handling the money." When Deslatte asked, "What's your name?" the man replied, "Lee Oswald."

Here's the bid form filled out by the Bolton Ford salesman.  Note that "Oswald" and "Friends of Democratic Cuba" are written on the form.

 

And who were among the executive officers of "Friends of Democratic Cuba?"  None other than Harvey Oswald associates W. Guy Banister and Gerard Tugague.

 

After the assassination, Fred Sewell recalled his salesman Deslatte telling him, "Say Fred, do you remember those two guys who was in here from Cuba trying to get some buses cheap?  I think that one of those men was the one who killed the President." Deslatte added, "We've got a piece of paper around here somewhere with a bid on it," and he found it (shown above) and called the FBI.   

And who also helped bring all this to the attention of the FBI?  None other than Harvey Oswald's alleged protagonist Carlos Bringuier.

 

Parker and other H&L critics will try to defuse this evidence, probably by pointing to minor descrepancie among the witnesses, but they never try to characterize and refute ALL the evidence.  They always just consider some of it.  For a more detailed examination of the Bolton Ford Incident, follow the link below....

Bolton Ford

Edit: I forgot to mention that there is another FBI report that attempts to minimize the significance of this encounter.  It is very easy to show, however, that the report is just an attempted cover-up.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[James DiEugenio]

I did not know about  Bringuier's role in that one. Thanks.

[Michael Walton]

41 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Parker and other H&L critics will try to defuse this evidence, probably by pointing to minor descrepancie among the witnesses, but they never try to characterize and refute ALL the evidence.  They always just consider some of it.  For a more detailed examination of the Bolton Ford Incident, follow the link below....

It's  actually the other way around Jim.

There's  more than enough proof on here that no LHO clone ever existed by Parker, Parnell and others.

I've  also posted plenty in photos to show that Oswald was one person and his Mom was one lady.

The biggest issue with  the Hardly story is projection, as in projecting an old hearsay story into an entire clone story complete with finding  the clone in Europe (so the Russia speaking can conveniently  be explained) a clone  of  the  clone's Mom (so the two Moms can also have similar appearances...but not quite enough as in one was frumpy  and never smiled)  and other hooks  to give it just enough  of  a  smell of realism for those who are more gullible  to conspiracy.

Unfortunately  the clone story, like the Z film and body alteration theories, muddles the overall narrative  of the JFK assassination  and takes away from the important  work by serious minded researchers such as Simpich, Newman, Meagher, Marcus, Cranor and others.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I did not know about  Bringuier's role in that one. Thanks.

What I don’t get is that with all his connections to the FBI and so many people in Banister’s circle, as well as DRE, and probably CIA, Bringuier surely knew that the Friends of Democratic Cuba was an anti-Castro outfit.  Why would he want to tie “Lee Harvey Oswald” into anti-Castro circles when the world was being told Oswald was a Castro-loving commie?  It doesn’t make sense.  I always assumed Bringuier knew a lot, but this report makes me wonder.
 

[Guest]

On 3/18/2018 at 7:07 AM, Michael Walton said:

The biggest issue with  the Hardly story is projection, as in projecting an old hearsay story into an entire clone story complete with finding  the clone in Europe (so the Russia speaking can conveniently  be explained) a clone  of  the  clone's Mom (so the two Moms can also have similar appearances...but not quite enough as in one was frumpy  and never smiled)  and other hooks  to give it just enough  of  a  smell of realism for those who are more gullible  to conspiracy.

There is always projection in two directions as well:  The actual hard evidence is always projected into not being what it pretty clearly is.  The gossip, innuendos, clerical mistakes, human errors and gaps in the evidence, on the other hand, are always projected into gospel truth that -voila! - supports Our Pet Theory.  You can't trust the actual evidence, but you can trust the way we fill in the gaps.

On the Bolton Ford incident, I would simply note:

• At least according to the FBI memorandum dated 11-25-63 (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=47745#relPageId=56), Bolton Ford salesman Oscar Deslatte was in contact with the FBI by that date, a mere THREE DAYS after the assassination.
• The assassination was nearly THREE YEARS after the alleged incident.
• No trucks were sold.
• Do car salesmen typically remember non-sales THREE YEARS after the fact?
• Do car dealerships typically keep carbon copies of price quotes that do not result in sales for THREE YEARS?
• Does the price quotation reproduced by Jim look like a 1961-era, 3-year-old carbon copy?  I don't remember carbon copies having that level of clarity.
• Deslatte could not remember anything about either "Joseph Moore" or "Oswald."  He could not identify a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald as anyone he had ever seen.
• Deslatte recalled only the name "Oswald" - "no first name given."  How many Oswalds lived in Louisiana at that time?  Was any Oswald associated with the Friends of Democratic Cuba?
• Is it plausible that Deslatte immediately made a connection between the assassination of JFK and a three-year-old non-sale and felt compelled to immediately call the FBI?  Isn't that more than a bit odd?
• The MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more detailed information and identification of "Oswald" by Bolton Ford manager Fred Sewell comes out of the 1967 Garrison investigation.  'Nuff said?
• Where was Sewell when Deslatte was contacting the FBI?  Why didn't he refresh Deslatte's memory at the time with all of his 1967 revelations?
• If the name "Lee Oswald" was given, as Sewell said, why did Deslatte write only "Oswald" on the price quotation when he had written "Joseph Moore's" full name?
• Given how auto sales transactions work, wouldn't one expect salesman Deslatte's recollections three years after the fact to  be more vivid and detailed than manager Sewell's six years after the fact?
• I assume the Harvey and Lee theorists posit that the FBI memorandum is a fabrication, part of the conspiracy?  If so, what purpose would it have served?
• If the conspiracy were intended to create the appearance of one Oswald when there were in fact two, what purpose would it have served to highlight one "Oswald" as being associated with an anti-Castro organization at Bolton Ford when the whole world knew the other "Oswald" was in Minsk as a communist sympathizer at the very same time? Instead of being clever conspiratorial thinking, doesn't this seem ... rather stupid and clumsy?
• Is it possible the FBI, the Warren Commission and the HSCA gave short shrift to the Bolton Ford incident because they readily concluded it was a dead end for some or all of the above reasons?

It seems to me this is merely yet another example of Fundamentalist Zealot Conspiracy Thinking (a phrase I use, of course, with the deepest respect).  What is essentially nothing becomes - voila! - the smoking gun.

As Bugliosi (boo! hiss!) pointed out, and as I have experienced myself during my legal career, the wildest assortment of characters with the wildest assortment of tales come out of the woodwork following a high-profile incident.  It's human nature.  Without a much more solid understanding than we will ever have now, incidents like Bolton Ford are little more than curiosities.

 

 

[Michael Walton]

6 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

As Bugliosi (boo! hiss!) pointed out, and as I have experienced myself during my legal career, the wildest assortment of characters with the wildest assortment of tales come out of the woodwork following a high-profile incident.  It's human nature. 

Thanks for the reply and well said. Now if only I can convince the Math Guys that their calculations make no sense and watch the two-film sync video of Nix/Z.

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I assume the Harvey and Lee theorists posit that the FBI memorandum is a fabrication, part of the conspiracy?  If so, what purpose would it have served?

Of course the FBI report of 11/25/63 was a cover-up doc!  We know because the fraudulent report says Deslatte couldn’t identify a picture of Oswald!  Are you kidding?  Three days after the assassination of JFK everyone in America had seen pictures of LHO!  Even more significantly, Sewell told Garrison, “They didn’t show us no pictures. They didn’t do anything but take that paper and they offered us a receipt.”

Warren Commission loyalists will no doubt say the FBI investigation was more reliable than the investigation by Garrison, but we have lots of evidence of how dishonest many of the FBI reports were. The FBI’s malfeasance in this case was legion and is well known by most members of this forum.  The short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story.  It just takes 3 minutes to watch this:

 

The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials.  FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the bean about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC.

 

The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.  

 

For more about how the FBI altered evidence, see this link:

Manipulated, Fabricated, and Disappearing Evidence

Please spare us suggestions that the FBI conducted an honest investigation in this case!  I’ll take Garrison’s work over Hoover’s ANY day.  When we try to figure out what happened, all we can do is try to piece together the evidence Hoover neglected to cover up, and in a case this big, there was plenty of it.

One of the items the FBI forgot to destroy was its own airtel dated 12/9/63, which clearly showed Deslatte DID remember Oswald and did remember that “Oswald said he was trying to get trucks for Cuba.”  Deslatte's recollection was clearly in danger of becoming the talk of the town!  The FBI’s cover-up report was probably back dated to 11/25/63.  

 

The FBI HAD to cover-up the two Oswalds, which Hoover had known about for years.  Had they not done so, American Intel's "Oswald Project" would have been exposed.

[Michael Clark]

On 12/24/2011 at 9:21 PM, Greg Parker said:

Andric,

you said it all when you said 'allegedly" couldn't drive. I'm curious as to why this could not have been the O's (apart from the driving issue)? Where else were they supposed to have been at the time?

I'm perfectly at ease with the Irving incidents being the O's as I have looked into those sightings quite recently, but it's possible I missed that they were supposed to be elsewhere. The January one, I'd have to take another look at -- has been a while...

The Furniture Mart.

It's not that the Oswalds, all four of them, were supposed to be somewhere else at the time (as is mentioned above) it's that the owner of the Mart, and a friend, testified, simultaneously, in the same room, with Marina, with back and forth exchanges, in front of the Warren Commission! Maria says she wasn't the woman that the owner saw. The owner testifies that LHO was the person that was with Marina. They had both children in tow. 

A funny exchange during the testimony...... The owner described how Marina looked that day in the Funitur Mart, remarking that she had very pretty eyes; and Marina replies... "thank you".

It is a worthwhile read. I am not sold on the depth and breadth of H&L, but I believe all of this testimony; which means that LHO's double was the spitting image of him, as was Marina's double. If you agree with me on this episode then that goes very very deep into H&L territory. It means the whole family was doubled and presented for this instance. This was after October 20th, when their second daughter was born.

For those who do not know, LHO went in to the shop, with a rifle scope, to have it serviced, or a piece replaced or made for it. This was weeks before the assassination. There was no longer a gunsmith at that store. A "gunsmith" sign was in the window from a time prior when a gunsmith had a counter in the store. So, LHO would never be coming back for a second visit... quite a convenience. LHO drove like a novice, and went the wrong way down a one-way-street.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Michael...

Thanks for bringing up the Furniture Mart episode.

The Furniture Mart story was explained by Mrs. Whitworth on Nov. 27, 1963 to Miss Jean Campbell, the American correspondent of the London Evening Standard.  Edith Whitworth's friend, Gertrude Hunter, also met this Oswald family at the Furniture Mart.

During her talk with the London Evening Standard reporter, Mrs. Whitworth checked her notes about her husband's recent bus trip and was able to use that event to establish the date of the Oswald family visit as either Wednesday, November 6 or Thursday, November 7.  According to records of the Texas School Book Depository, Lee HARVEY Oswald worked all day at the building on both November 6 and November 7.

Both Mrs. Whitworth and Gertrude Hunter said this Oswald drove a blue and white or blue two-tone Ford, which sounds like Ruth Paine's automobile.  Both Marina and Ruth Paine denied everything, including during the July 24, 1964 hearing in which Mrs. Whitworth, Gertrude Hunter, Marina Oswald, June Oswald, and Rachel Oswald were all brought together by the Warren Commission, which for once seemed genuinely curious about this event.

In describing Marina and the two daughters, Mrs. Whitworth made an interesting comment.  She said, "That little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark headed girl, and at that time she wore--she had her bangs cut... she had straight hair hair and she had little bangs in front...."  In his book, John points out that "Twenty-two-month-old June Oswald had blond hair--not dark hair.... Ruth Paine's daughter had dark hair with bangs."

[Paul Brancato]

Have the proponents of the two Oswald theory ever considered the fact that Nazis used doubles and experimented with twins? I’m reading a book about Martin Bormann which makes the case that he had a body double deliberately created, teeth and all, and buried in the rubble, to hide the fact that he did not die in Berlin but escaped to South America?