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Thomas Graves

Was Jack Dougherty the Low-Intelligence Guy He's Been Portrayed As Being?

18 posts in this topic

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Jack E. Dougherty w/m/40, 1827 So. Marsalis WH-6-7170 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch.

/s/ Jack E. Dougherty

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Patsy Collins

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas



Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is quite good, better than most Americans, in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. He must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one two grammatical mistakes when he used the singular form of the verb "to be" in the past tense ("was") when he should have used the plural form ("were"), and when he said "I gone" instead of just "gone" without the "I," or perhaps "went" or "I went," thereby suggesting that it really was Dougherty who wrote these words instead of some highly-educated "helper."

I have highlighted in purple the places where he used noticeably good grammar.

--Tommy smile.gif

PS Dougherty wrote that he returned to work at 12:45. But then he contradicts himself by saying that he had already gone back to work when he heard a shot (which we know happened at 12:31)! He also says, in so many words, that he went down to the fifth floor to get some stock, and was on that floor when he heard a shot.

OK. So he said he went down to the fifth floor. Question: From where? From the sixth floor? If so, did he go up there to get some stock there, too, or to do "something else"?

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I'm sure it's covered in his testimony but it's been a long time since I read it; what were Dougherty's duties at the TSBD?

Martin,

I can't resist: The same as the title of the other thread from which I relocated my above post. Clearing Up Some Areas! :D

From memory I'll say that one of his responsibilities was checking on or lighting the boiler(s) in the basement every morning. I do remember that he had his own key to the TSBD and that he was in the habit of arriving there much earlier than the other employees. I think he was kind of a generalized maintenence man/janitor and that he could be found all over the building on any given day.

--Tommy :)

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I'm sure it's covered in his testimony but it's been a long time since I read it; what were Dougherty's duties at the TSBD?

Martin,

I can't resist: The same as the title of the other thread from which I relocated my above post. Clearing Up Some Areas! :D

From memory I'll say that one of his responsibilities was checking on or lighting the boiler(s) in the basement every morning. I do remember that he had his own key to the TSBD and that he was in the habit of arriving there much earlier than the other employees. I think he was kind of a generalized maintenence man/janitor and that he could be found all over the building on any given day.

--Tommy :)

Tommy,

Ok, so Dougherty was smart enough to be trusted with a key and with lighting the boiler.

I'm fairly confident, therefore, that he was smart enough to be able to tell whether or not someone had a three foot long rifle in his hands.

What do you think?

Martin,

Personally, I don't think LHO took a rifle to work that day or any other day for that matter. If I'm right, then there was nothing like that for Dougherty to "notice".

--Tommy :)

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I'm sure it's covered in his testimony but it's been a long time since I read it; what were Dougherty's duties at the TSBD?

Martin,

I can't resist: The same as the title of the other thread from which I relocated my above post. Clearing Up Some Areas! :D

From memory I'll say that one of his responsibilities was checking on or lighting the boiler(s) in the basement every morning. I do remember that he had his own key to the TSBD and that he was in the habit of arriving there much earlier than the other employees. I think he was kind of a generalized maintenence man/janitor and that he could be found all over the building on any given day.

--Tommy :)

Tommy,

Ok, so Dougherty was smart enough to be trusted with a key and with lighting the boiler.

I'm fairly confident, therefore, that he was smart enough to be able to tell whether or not someone had a three foot long rifle in his hands.

What do you think?

Martin,

Personally, I don't think LHO took a rifle to work that day or any other day for that matter. If I'm right, then there was nothing like that for Dougherty to "notice".

--Tommy :)

With you on that one, Tommy.

Maybe Jack took a rifle there so early that morning that no one noticed it.

I've taken the liberty of copying and pasting this interesting post by David Weaver on the JFK Lancer Forum:

Thanks for the info Raymond,

here's all information I can post on a public forum:

Jack E. (Edwin) Dougherty

Born: 12 August 1923 Dallas Texas

Died: 29 December 1994 Dallas Texas

Source for the Military Information:

As far as I remember I found it at Nara, Enlistment records

1940-1972(from my memory)

ARMY SERIAL NUMBER 18177952

NAME DOUGHERTY JACK E

RESIDENCE STATE 85 TEXAS

RESIDENCE COUNTY 113 DALLAS

PLACE OF ENLISTMENT 8536 DALLAS TEXAS

DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 24

DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 10

DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 42

GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT Private

GRADE: CODE 8 Private

BRANCH: ALPHA DESIGNATION AC Air Corps

BRANCH: CODE 20 Air Corps

FIELD USE AS DESIRED

TERM OF ENLISTMENT 5 Enlistment for the duration

of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to

the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law

LONGEVITY

SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL 0 Civil Life

NATIVITY 85 TEXAS

YEAR OF BIRTH 23

RACE AND CITIZENSHIP 1 White, citizen

EDUCATION 4 4 years of high school

CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 992 STUDENT View

MARITAL STATUS 6 Single, without dependents

COMPONENT OF THE ARMY 6 Army of the United States -

includes the following: Voluntary enlistments effective

December 8, 1941 and thereafter; One year enlistments of

National Guardsman whose State enlistment expires while in

the Federal Service; Officers appointed in the Army of the

United States under Army Regulations 605-10

CARD NUMBER

BOX NUMBER 0289

FILM REEL NUMBER 3.11

SSN-Number: Only in privat

Relatives Names and Address: Only in private

david weaver

I wonder which high school Jack went to for 4.4 years? Maybe his photo is in the yearbook.

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves

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AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Jack E. Dougherty w/m/40, 1827 So. Marsalis WH-6-7170 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch.

/s/ Jack E. Dougherty

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Patsy Collins

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is quite good (except for the glaring "I gone" mistake), better than most Americans, in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. He must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one two grammatical mistakes when he used the singular form of the verb "to be" in the past tense ("was") when he should have used the plural form ("were"), and when he said "I gone" instead of just "gone" without the I, or perhaps "went" or "I went," thereby suggesting that it really was Dougherty who wrote these words instead of some highly-educated "helper."

I have highlighted in purple the places where he used noticeably good grammar.

--Tommy smile.gif

PS Dougherty wrote that he returned to work at 12:45. But then he contradicts himself by saying that he had already gone back to work when he heard a shot (which we know happened at 12:31)! He also says, in so many words, that he went down to the fifth floor to get some stock, and was on that floor when he heard a shot.

OK. So he said he went down to the fifth floor, and that that was where he was when he heard the shot. Question: From where did he come down? From the sixth floor? If so, had he gone up there to get some stock, or to do "something else"?

edited and augmented

Edited by Thomas Graves

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AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Jack E. Dougherty w/m/40, 1827 So. Marsalis WH-6-7170 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I am employed at the Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm and have been since 1952. I was working on the sixth floor today. There was six of us working on the floor. The others were Bill Lovelady, William Shelby, Danny Arce, Bonnie Williams, and Charles Givens. I went back to work at 12:45 p.m. I had already gone back to work and I gone down on the fifth to get some stock when I heard a shot. It sounded like it was coming from inside the building, but I couldn't tell from where. I went down on the first floor, and asked a man named Eddie Piper if he had heard anything and he said yes, that he had heard three shots. I then went back on the sixth floor. I didn't see anyone on the floor except the people I named. There was another employee that is named Lee Oswald that I saw on the sixth floor. He works all over the building, but I saw him on the sixth floor shortly before noon. I didn't see Oswald in the building after lunch.

/s/ Jack E. Dougherty

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Patsy Collins

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Analyzing the syntax and grammar used by Jack Dougherty in his affidavit, one realizes that it is quite good (except for the glaring "I gone" mistake), better than most Americans, in fact. Unless he was "helped" with it, it would appear that he wasn't the low-intelligence guy he has been portrayed as being. He must have been "helped" with it, right? Actually, I don't think so. He did make one two grammatical mistakes when he used the singular form of the verb "to be" in the past tense ("was") when he should have used the plural form ("were"), and when he said "I gone" instead of just "gone" without the I, or perhaps "went" or "I went," thereby suggesting that it really was Dougherty who wrote these words instead of some highly-educated "helper."

I have highlighted in purple the places where he used noticeably good grammar.

--Tommy smile.gif

PS Dougherty wrote that he returned to work at 12:45. But then he contradicts himself by saying that he had already gone back to work when he heard a shot (which we know happened at 12:31)! He also says, in so many words, that he went down to the fifth floor to get some stock, and was on that floor when he heard a shot.

OK. So he said he went down to the fifth floor, and that that was where he was when he heard the shot. Question: From where did he come down? From the sixth floor? If so, had he gone up there to get some stock, or to do "something else"?

edited and augmented

Edited by Thomas Graves

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[...]

[...]

PS Here's a good post by "Guest" I found on the ROKC website:

Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty

March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository.

The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission.

Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates.

The “retardation” is simply a cover story.

Here is the memo:

MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin

I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.

On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.

In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[

SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)

I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.

(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.

(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

( b ) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.

1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)

© Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.”

cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich

(Then "Guest" wrote:)

A couple of questions jump out of this:

  • None of these “concerns” or “suspicions” were explicitly discussed with Dougherty when he was on the stand and from the existing record they weren’t discussed with him by the FBI or the DallasPolice after Eisenberg had raised them.

  • Eisenberg claims the time of the shots was 12:32PM. This is the time also laid out in other documents relating to the assassination investigation. So what time was Kennedy actually shot?

Last edited by Admin on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Word change - formatting)

Of all the points Eisenberg makes, this one is my favorite:
(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45. [and especially odd since Dougherty wrote in his affidavit that he returned to work at 12:45, but then proceeded to contradict himself, timewise -- T. Graves]
-- Tommy
note: Greg Parker points out in response that there were several post-assassination lists of TSBD employees who were on the "6th-floor floor-laying crew," and that Dougherty was on only some of those lists.

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It is weird

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It is weird

Paul,

You do know that Wes Riddle over at the JFK Assassination Forum and our erstwhile own Linda G-Z claimed to have found Jack Dougherty in Skaggs 16, don't you? Waiting with Shelley by the TSBD to be taken in for questioning. Someone else claims to have spotted Detective W.E. Potts near them. There are a couple of cops close to them, too.

From left to right: Bill Shelley, Detective W.E. Potts (?), Jack Dougherty [credit: Linda G-Z]

Skaggs_Slide_2316__Crop_zpsac7fa6ec.jpg

[credit: Linda G-Z]

DoughertyPossibly-SunsetHS-SophomoreColl

Does anyone know the photo "Decker and Dougherty (?) 11/22/63" (above) came from?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

BTW, I'm convinced that the guy caught in Alyea's film by a 6th floor window is Lovelady, not Dougherty. If you look closely, you can see that he's wearing a white t-shirt with a darker shirt over it. Also note the sharply-angled front part of his sideburn as he's turning his head back towards Fritz.

l1.gif

I'm wondering if Lovelady was "captured" in the Martin and Hughes films before or after Alyea "caught" him, photographically-speaking, on the six floor with the policemen and detectives (above)?

-- Tommy

Seeing as how no one in the TSBD that day was seven feet tall, Lovelady must have been standing on a pallet.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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It is weird

Paul,

You do know that Wes Riddle over at the JFK Assassination Forum and our erstwhile own Linda G-Z claimed to have found Jack Dougherty in Skaggs 16, don't you? Waiting with Shelley by the TSBD to be taken in for questioning. Someone else (?) claims to have spotted Detective W.E. Potts near them. There are a couple of cops close to them, too.

From left to right: Bill Shelley, Detective W.E. Potts (?), Jack Dougherty [credit: Linda G-Z]

Skaggs_Slide_2316__Crop_zpsac7fa6ec.jpg

[credit: Linda G-Z]

DoughertyPossibly-SunsetHS-SophomoreColl

Does anyone know the photo "Decker and Dougherty (?) 11/22/63" (above, right) came from?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[...]

-- Tommy :sun

bumped, due to (hopefully) current interest in Dougherty

Edited by Thomas Graves

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A couple of observations from this thread.

At 40 years old in 1963, Dougherty seems to have had a "helper" position for quite a long time, 11 years, He, also, clearly differentiates Oswald from his own situation, "...He works all over the building...", I'd suggest Dougherty is probably employed in Shipping like several of the other employees that were working on the flooring that day. I'm not suggesting he couldn't have been a really bright kid but I doubt it with that resume.

It's also quite possible he sat at a desk and relayed his statement to someone like a Detective who typed it up and asked Dougherty to sign it. In this case the grammar may be a Detective's correction/interpretation and not the exact word-for-word statement. Is there an original handwritten copy? Is his statement even signed?

Mel Eisenberg's memo to Rankin is fascinating. They had some real problems with his testimony and I think he's hiding something, most probably what he saw or heard.

The AAC (Army Air Corp) data is interesting but being a Private in that Branch raises some doubts as to being a trained assassin/sniper.

Nice job hunting this stuff down Tommy

(edit - fixed my own grammar)

Edited by Chris Newton

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Interesting

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Interesting

Yes, Robert?

How so?

-- Tommy :sun

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Interesting in that I've never seen photos of Dougherty before.

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WC Testimony:

Ball: Did you ever leave the United States during the war?

Dougherty: Oh yes.

Ball: Where did you go?

Dougherty: Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana, Seymour, Ind.

lol

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