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Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong


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Hmm. Seems Uncle Dutz couldn't tell his "Harvey's from his "Lees" because the alternative explanation that he's talking about the same kid is just toooo much for some to handle!!!!

Another little snip from Vol 2:

When asked by Counsel Jenner what kind of boy Lee was, Murret replied, “Well, I'll tell you; I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

According to Dutz, while Lee stayed at the Murret house he was quiet most of the time but could get loud and demanding with his mother. Marguerite's friend, Mrs Evans, made a similar observation. She must have been "in" on it too.

So far "in the know", we have Marguerite, the fake Marguerite, Lee, "Harvey", Robert, Marina, Uncle Dutz, Aunt Lilian and Mrs Evans... am I missing anyone other than all the unknown CIA recruiters, handlers and officers involved?

Edited by Greg Parker
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Hmm. Seems Uncle Dutz couldn't tell his "Harvey's from his "Lees" because the alternative explanation that he's talking about the same kid is just toooo much for some to handle!!!!

Another little snip from Vol 2:

When asked by Counsel Jenner what kind of boy Lee was, Murret replied, “Well, I'll tell you; I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

According to Dutz, while Lee stayed at the Murret, he was quiet most of the time but could get loud and demanding with his mother. Marguerite's friend, Mrs Evans, made a similar observation. She must have been "in" on it too.

So far "in the know", we have Marguerite, the fake Marguerite, Lee, "Harvey", Robert, Marina, Uncle Dutz, Aunt Lilian and Mrs Evans... am I missing anyone other than all the unknown CIA recruiters, handlers and officers involved?

So far "in the know", we have Marguerite, the fake Marguerite, Lee, "Harvey", Robert, Marina, Uncle Dutz, Aunt Lilian and Mrs Evans... am I missing anyone other than all the unknown CIA recruiters, handlers and officers involved?

Golly, Greg, that's a lot of people! It sure is amazing that they could all "keep a secret" !!! Maybe the bad guys paid them all a lot of money to keep their big mouths shut, and that Marguerite was so darn clever to continue working at low-paying jobs to, you know -- to help maintain her "cover" !!! Or maybe the bad guys just threatened them all !!! Most likely, though, is that they all kept their big mouths shut because they were such Patriots !!!

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Gaal, here's a tip. The usual expectation is that replies are made via a new post - not editing an old one.

So micro edit to major data is unresponsive re post #1234,. ,gaal

(here is a tip ,don't complain about micro edit and you don't answer material)

===========================================================

Thanks. Lesson learned. Everything must be checked, even stuff written by John Newman.

--Tommy :sun

GOLLY PER GREG PARKER NEWMAN SAYS MILITARY RECORDS DONT SHOW 2 OSWALDS. IF MR PARKER IS CORRECT RE two LHOs/MILITARY RECORDS and NEWMAN'S INTERPRETATION ,this might be an additional error. gaal

====================================================================================

EDITED POST DAVID JOSEPH JULY 18th 2015

=========================================

Thanks Tom... With so many WC Docs I appreciate being led to different ones with specific info buried under anonymous headings...

One of the things that most bother me about the USMC records is the conflict between "Aircraft Control and Warning Operator" school (Radar operator) and the recommendation as well as preference of duty in his records as a "Aircraft Maintenance and Repair"...

With as poor hearing as he had, I fail to see how he gets into a Air Traffic Control. Felde tells us that his Oswald did not go to Biloxi but was in Florida thru July when they go to "Aviation Electronics School" in Memphis TN which as I understand it would be for Aircraft Maintenance nad Repair, not Air traffic controller...

http://www.marines.c...lement/avionics

Marines in the Avionics field install, remove, inspect, test, maintain and repair all aviation weapons and electrical systems. They also support communications, radar and navigation systems.

http://maryferrell.o...geId=2&tab=page

On the next page in that WCD with the Landes info WCD131, we are told yet another little white lie by the FBI who, when necessary, couldn't find their a$$ with two hands and a flashlight...

"The records fail to name any personnel assigned or attending above school with Oswald"

When in reality the records could not be more clear... and later on, Powers produces the orders for these six men at his testimony..

Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them-----

Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date, I appreciate it.

Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."

And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.

Mr. POWERS. (1Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.) 551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?

Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694

Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER Yes.

Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.

I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.

This is NOT Harvey Mr. Powers here is talking about... but LEE and helps to illustrate the existence of these two separate men. The list of men HARVEY is known to is completely different and NEVER includes these other 5 names....

Have at it boys

WCD131%20p2%20says%20no%20record%20of%20

Edited by Steven Gaal
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This is NOT Harvey Mr. Powers here is talking about.... but LEE

Gee Golly Whiz Stevo... I must have missed where Powers actually said he was talking about Harvey.

Nope. I just checked. He said he is talking about Lee just as you claim, so looks like you're in total harmony with reality! Well done and stay on those meds!

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The Murret family is fascinating. Here are two short excerpts from H&L....



Oswald's cousin, Marilyn Murret, also talked about Harvey's northern accent.


She told the Warren Commission, "It seems that he was from the North, and so they


ridiculed him in school.. ... he was riding the streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next


to some Negroes. Well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these


boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth ..... "10 [WC testimony of Marilyn Murret, 8 H 159]



It is interesting that Oswald's cousin, who knew that he was born in New Orleans, would


tell the Commission, "It seems that he was from the North." Unless, of course, Harvey was not


her real cousin and she was trying to protect his identity.



--Harvey & Lee, pp. 88-89



. . . .




November 1--Marilyn Dorothea Murret



On Sunday, November 1, John Pic's (and Lee Oswald's) cousin, Marilyn Murret,


visited Pic and his family at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan. Pic told the Warren Commis-


sion, "In approximately October-November, early November, the end of October 1959


(probably October 25) she called me up at the hospital.... and I invited her out to the


house the next weekend. She visited us on a Sunday (Nov. 1), I believe ..... she talked


about the family and everything ..... she talked about Lee ..... she said, 'Do you know that


Lee is in Europe?"' Somewhat surprised Pic said, "No, I don't know that."



NOTE: By reconstructing Pics testimony and noting that Pic contacted the US Embassy


in Tokyo on Thursday, November 6, we realize the only Sunday that Marilyn Murret


could have visited Pic and his family was on November 1, before Oswald's "defection"


was made public in Japan. Yet Marilyn Murret, the free-lance, globe-trotting school


teacher, somehow knew that Oswald had already left for Europe.



Pic did not know that Lee was in Europe and, somewhat curious, asked Marilyn


about him. Pic told Commission Attorney Jenner, "It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock


news (Sunday evening, Nov. 1) that I learned that Lee had defected .... on the American


Armed Forces Network ..... the next day it appeared in the paper (Monday, Nov. 2) ..... the


Stars and Stripes ... "



NOTE: The only English press in Japan at that time was the Stars and Stripes and the


American Armed Forces Network-neither of which had published articles or broadcast


news about Oswald's defection by the time Marilyn visited Pic and his family on Sun-


day, November 1.



Marilyn Murret had unknown but very good sources of information about


Oswald's defection. When asked by Commission Attorney Liebeler, "Did John (Pic) tell


you that Lee had gone to Russia?" Marilyn responded, "He didn't tell me, his wife told


me. So I didn't bring the subject up at all with John." SOMEONE IS LYING--either John


Pic or Marilyn Murret.



NOTE: Marilyn Dorothea Murret first applied for a US passport on July 7, 1954 and


listing her employment as a teacher. She listed both of her parents' birthdates incorrectly


(just as Lee Harvey Oswald had done on his 1959 passport application) and soon de-


parted the United States for Europe. When she applied for a second passport, on April


22, 1958, she again listed both of her parents' birthdates incorrectly and soon departed


the US. She traveled to New Zealand, Australia, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Singapore,


Malaya, and finally arrived in Japan in September 1959, where she spent the next six-


and-a-half months. In February 1961 she spent 9 months in India, followed by trips to


Karachi, Pakistan in April 1962, the Holy Land, Egypt, Beirot, Cypros and through-


out Europe. 38



After the assassination this free-lance, globetrotting, 35-year-old teacher came to the at-


tention of news reporters Robert S. Allen and Paul Scott of the "Northern Virginia Sun."


On March 26, 1964 they reported, under the subtitle "Hunt On For US Defectors," ef-


forts by the US government to locate the whereabouts of US citizens who had defected to


Russia or satellite countries since the end of WWII. Their column listed by name some of


the "most wanted" defectors and among those names was "Marilyn Murret." When


questioned by the FBI reporter Paul Scott stated that he had information that indicated


a "tie-up" between her and the case of Lee Harvey Oswald. Scott stated that he had in-


formation that indicated Murret was linked with the "communist apparatus" of Pro-


fessor Harold Isaacs of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 39



In 1975 CIA Agent William George Gaudet told attorney Bernard Fensterwald, "She


(Marilyn Dorothea Murret) may have worked for the Agenry in New Orleans.



In 1978 the HSCA wanted to interview Marilyn Murret. On January 31, 1978 the Act-


ing Legislative Counsel for the CIA, Lyle L. Miller, wrote a letter to the HSCA (House


Select Committee on Assassinations). The letter stated, "So far as this Agency (CIA) is


concerned, there is no reason why Dorothy Marilyn Murret should not respond fully and


completely to any inquiry relevant to the investigation by the HSCA." Why would the


HSCA need to obtain the CIA's permission to question an ordinary US citizen who was


not supposed to have any connections to US intelligence agencies? The issuance of a let-


ter by the CIA referring to Marilyn Murret strongly suggests that she was either working


for, or had connections to, the CIA.



The HSCA finally interviewed Marilyn Murret in 1978, but the 23-page transcript of


her interview to this day is marked, "Referred--postponed in full. " Why?



--Harvey and Lee, pp. 273-274


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Oswald's cousin, Marilyn Murret, also talked about Harvey's northern accent.

Funny... what I see in her testimony is related to LEE Oswald. I think you need to talk to Steve. He seems to have finally woken from his delirium and admitted that Powers spoke to Lee and not some mythical "Harvey"

And I don't see what is so special about Marilyn's testimony on the bus incident. Lilian also testified about it and explained he sat there simply because they were the only available seats.

Weird accents old chap, are a huge part of Asperger's, as are a lack of awareness of social norms (such as not sitting in certain reserved areas). As you'll find out if you read volume 2 of my book, out soon. :ice

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Scott stated that he had in-

formation that indicated Murret was linked with the "communist apparatus" of Pro-

fessor Harold Isaacs of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 39 // Hargrove quoting H & L

========================================

Forgive me if I don't remember correctly, but I recall researcher Bruce Adamson had a Dulles letter to Isaacs asking him if this then unknown man Henry Kissinger could use some of his vault safe for Mr. Kissinger's papers. ,gaal (golly if this is right , then this could go in the Dulles Did it thread)

Edited by Steven Gaal
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Scott stated that he had in-

formation that indicated Murret was linked with the "communist apparatus" of Pro-

fessor Harold Isaacs of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 39 // Hargrove quoting H & L

========================================

Forgive me if I don't remember correctly, but I recall researcher Bruce Adamson had a Dulles letter to Isaacs asking him if this then unknown man Henry Kissinger could use some of his vault safe for Mr. Kissinger's papers. ,gaal (golly if this is right , then this could go in the Dulles Did it thread)

You quoting Hargrove quoting Armstrong. Golly, the research on this board just doesn't get any better than that!

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Scott stated that he had in-

formation that indicated Murret was linked with the "communist apparatus" of Pro-

fessor Harold Isaacs of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 39 // Hargrove quoting H & L

========================================

Forgive me if I don't remember correctly, but I recall researcher Bruce Adamson had a Dulles letter to Isaacs asking him if this then unknown man Henry Kissinger could use some of his vault safe for Mr. Kissinger's papers. ,gaal

Since it has been reported Murret an Isaacs operative and thus LHO only two degrees of separation from Allen Dulles suspect # 1 (per gaal). , gaal

==================================================

Coincidence or Conspiracy? pp. 217-218, in a description of Professor Harold Isaacs; this connection with the CIA was confirmed by Mrs. Isaacs.

==--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------==

The MIT Center for International Studies was one of several academic research centers founded in the United States after World War II.[3] Its creation was originally funded by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), in order to provide expert analysis on issues pertaining to the Cold War rivalry with the Soviet Union.[4] (Isaacs workplace)

========

Among the earliest and the most important of international studies centers was MIT's Center for International Studies, or CENIS. In its early years in the 1950s, the CIA underwrote this center almost as a subsidiary enterprise; CENIS grew out of "Project Troy," begun by the State Department in 1950 "to explore international information and communication patterns." It later broadened its agenda to "social science inquiry on international affairs,"57 but narrowed its sponsorship mostly to the CIA. This is evident in the transcript of a visiting committee meeting at MIT in May 1959, attended by MIT faculty like W. W. Rostow, Ithiel de Sola Pool, Max Millikan, and James Killian (president of MIT for several years); the visitors included Robert Lovett, McGeorge Bundy, and several unidentified participants.58

Queried as to whether the center served just the CIA or a larger group of government departments, Millikan remarked that over the five years of the center's relationship with the CIA, "there has been some continuing ambiguity as to whether we were creatures of [the] CIA or whether [the] CIA was acting as an administrative office for other agencies." He also admitted that the center had "taken on projects under pressure" to have work done that the CIA wanted done (these were among "the least successful projects" from MIT's standpoint, he thought). At one point in the transcript Millikan also says that "[Allen] Dulles allowed us to hire three senior people,"* suggesting that the CIA director had a hand in CENIS's hiring policies. The center provided an important go-between or holding area for the CIA, since "top notch social scientists" and "area experts" had no patience for extended periods of residence at CIA headquarters: "A center like ours provides a way of getting men in academic work to give them [sic] a close relationship with concrete problems faced by people in government."

_____________

*Dulles in charge of Isaacs workplace

Edited by Steven Gaal
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Sorry to spoil your party, Stevo, but all of this is old news. Discussed years ago on other forums.

Yes I know its old info. I forgot to put in the Dulles did it thread. I never really thought much about it re H & L data. Said Murret data NEW to this thread I believe. ,gaal

I guess you are all concerned about credit this and credit that, its part of your ego makeup, not my bag. gaal

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Sorry to spoil your party, Stevo, but all of this is old news. Discussed years ago on other forums.

Yes I know its old info. I forgot to put in the Dulles did it thread. I never really thought much about it re H & L data. Said Murret data NEW to this thread I believe. ,gaal

I guess you are all concerned about credit this and credit that, its part of your ego makeup, not my bag. gaal

Nope. If that was my concern, I would have said so.

I was responding to this claim: "Doesn't get any better than new input."

It's not new.

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Greg,

I've just found the perfect way to describe the Harvey and Lee syndrome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

"The Texas Sharpshooter" fallacy. How ironic is that?

"It is related to the clustering illusion, which refers to the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns where none actually exist."

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Greg,

I've just found the perfect way to describe the Harvey and Lee syndrome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

"The Texas Sharpshooter" fallacy. How ironic is that?

"It is related to the clustering illusion, which refers to the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns where none actually exist."

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Perfect!

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Greg,

I've just found the perfect way to describe the Harvey and Lee syndrome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

"The Texas Sharpshooter" fallacy. How ironic is that?

"It is related to the clustering illusion, which refers to the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns where none actually exist."

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Perfect!

Mr. PEFECT AKA GREG PARKER PLEASE SHOW

Department of Defense unit diaries, Dec. 5, 1978,

House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 013485).

=================================================================== thanks sg

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