New discovery concerning CE 369: Lovelady's arrow

[Ralph Cinque]

To whichever moderator sees this: it is a new discovery of great importance, and EF members are entitled to know about it. I have not been banned; I have been put on moderation. So please, in that spirit, please get this up. Thank you. Ralph Cinque

The Oswald Innocence Campaign has just discoverd something of great importance in CE 369.. We have discovered the arrow that Billy Lovelady drew on the Altgens photo to indicate himself. And it does not point to the Doorway Man, as most have assumed. Rather, it points to Black Hole Man.

But first a little history:

The Warren Commission asked two individuals to locate and identify Billy Lovelady in the Altgens photo, and they were Billy Lovelady and Buell Frazier. Both were asked to draw an arrow to Billy Lovelady. But, for some strange reason, on different occasions, they gave them each the exact same copy of the Altgens photo to draw on, which became known as CE 369.

To avoid bias, wouldn't they have provided each a fresh, unmarked copy of the Altgens photo to draw on? You would think so, but that's not what they did. Perhaps they were trying to send a message to Lovelady as to where that arrow had to go.

Buell Frazier went first, and he drew an arrow in the white pointing to Doorway Man, and that is the arrow we are all familiar with seeing.

http://tinypic.com/r/mv0z1t/6

People talk about that exhibit as if it was the handiwork of Billy Lovelady, but the arrow that is plainly visible was drawn by Buell Frazier. Lovelady drew an arrow in the black, but since he used a black pen, which made it black on black, we are unable to see his arrow. Or so we thought....

I have examined the black space above and around Doorman's head looking for Lovelady's arrow but never could find a hint of it. But then it occurred to me: What if Billy drew his arrow elsewhere in the photograph far away from Doorman?

So, I decided to look in proximity to Black Hole Man since he is the figure whom we assume to be Lovelady. And lo and behold....

http://tinypic.com/r/14wxa3n/6

Do you see that black line extending over his forearm? It's about the middle of his forearm but closer to his wrist than his elbow on the inside. What could that possibly be other than an arrow? Look at it up closer:

http://tinypic.com/r/1620fgi/6

Now here it is compared to the unmarked Altgens:

http://tinypic.com/r/14u7uaa/6

As you can see, in the unmarked Altgens, his forearm is undefiled. It is uninterrupted. It is unlined.

What could cause that line? Certainly not a shadow. From what? There is no object that could cast such a shadow. There is nothing else it could be except the arrow that Lovelady drew.

Now consider the testimony: WC Attorney Joseph Bell took out CE 369 with the arrow in the white pointing to Doorman that Buell Frazier had drawn:

Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

What is Ball talking about? We know now that the arrow Lovelady drew pointed to a different figure than to what Frazier pointed to. So how could Ball say, "You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you" when the "you" was different figures?

Are you wondering if there was also an arrow in the dark above Doorman that might have been the one that Lovelady drew? Well, see for yourself.

http://tinypic.com/r/2lxgvi9/6

There is no arrow in the dark above Doorman's head. There are only two arrows: the prominent diagonal arrow in the white pointing to Doorman drawn by Buell Frazier and the smaller fainter arrow pointing to Black Hole Man drawn mostly in the black by Billy Lovelady. That is it.

And again, if that line across the forearm of Black Hole Man is not part of Lovelady's arrow, what can it possibly be? It is not shadow. There is no object that could cast such a shadow.

The irony is that for decades, lone-nutters have used CE 369 as evidence of Lovelady pointing to himself as Doorman in the Altgens photo. But that was never the case. The arrow to which they were referring was Frazier's arrow. Lovelady's arrow was never visualized -until now. Now we know that Lovelady, at the time, was being truthful; he was being noble. He was saying he was Black Hole Man and not Doorman.

And think about what it means. Black Hole is not wearing a plaid shirt. He is not even wearing a long-sleeved shirt. That means that ALL of the images of Lovelady wearing a plaid shirt on 11/22/63, including the famous Martin frames and the various frames from the PD footage, with the famous walk-by of Lovelady, are all false. None of those figures were Lovelady. Every single one of them was somehow faked. Lovelady told the truth when he told the FBI that he wore a short-sleeved striped shirt on 11/22. Obviously, there are no stripes on the shirt of Black Hole Man, but that's because they took them out. They blackened out his face and they whitened his shirt.

To our adversaries, I request to know what that black line is over Black Hole Man's forearm if it is not Lovelady's arrow. Please answer the question. And if it can't be answered- convincingly- it is over. The game is over. And it is Oswald in the doorway.

Unfortunately, I am getting mistreated again, and I know very well that some moderators simply refuse to post my submissions.

To everyone who responded below:

If that black line overlapping Black Hole Man's forearm is not the tail of an arrow, then what is it?

It has to be somerthing. It cannot be nothing. It cannot be a shadow because a shadow would appear in EVERY copy of the Altgens photo, not just CE 369.

I would ask that you cease the diversionary tactics. Instead, if you don't like my conclusion that that was Lovelady's drawn arrow, then provide an alternative explanation.

One thing is for sure: Lovelady drew an arrow. It is in the testimony. So, where is it? If this isn't it, then find it.

As of now, it appears that this is the long-lost arrow of Lovelady. And no one has provided any alternative explanation.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Ralph Cinque

[Ralph Cinque]

Thanks, Lee. I realize that the thing I am pointing to is very subtle. But, subtlety does not automatically warrant rejection. The question: if that line which overlaps the forearm of the man with no head is NOT the tail of Lovelady's arrow, then what is it? It has to be something. We don't see it in unmarked copies of the Altgens photo. So, how can it be a shadow? If it were a shadow, it would appear in EVERY copy.

The record shows that Billy Lovelady did draw an arrow on the picture. But up until now, it has never been identified. The big prominent arrow is definitely Frazier's. We know that from the testimony because Ball referred to it and instructed Lovelady to draw his in the black.

Here's another telling point: Lovelady drew that line awfully timid. It could not have been more subtle. He must have realized that they weren't looking for what he was offering. He didn't want to lie, but he did not want to upset them either. So, he did them the favor of making his arrow very small and almost imperceptible.

http://tinypic.com/r/28l9uew/6

if you were going to draw an arrow, why would you draw it so timidly? Why wouldn't he draw it as boldly as Frazier drew his?

I think that it was because, either consciously or subconsciously, he realized that he wasn't giving them what they wanted; he was letting them down; and maybe it would lessen the disappointment if he made it small and barely noticeable. It was like he was winking at Mr. Ball and telling him non-verbally:

"Look, Mr. Ball, you really don't want me drawing any visible arrow on this photo because I know what you're looking for, but I can't deliver it. It would best for you to just drop it and move on"

And after Ball saw what Lovelady did, I'm sure he got the message, and then he went into theatrics:

Mr. Ball : Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

What? What a con artist, and you and I were the ones being conned. Lovelady drew his arrow to a different figure than Frazier had done and Ball just ignored it. He put on an act, but I bet his heart was racing. He had to know at that moment that it was Oswald in the doorway.

After all, between Frazier and Lovelady, who knew better who Lovelady was?

[Robin Unger]

Quote:

Lovelady told the truth when he told the FBI that he wore a short-sleeved striped shirt on 11/22.

Obviously, there are no stripes on the shirt of Black Hole Man, but that's because they took them out. They blackened out his face and they whitened his shirt. ROFLMFAO

The images below are your proof, are you serious. ?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Robin Unger

[Greg Burnham]

Robin,

Since Fetzer was cornered in the thread here: http://educationforu...92

...where I said:

[bEGIN] ==========================================================================================================

Since I (monk) predicted accurately that you (Fetzer) would not answer the simple questions posed to you in this thread, thus going OFF TOPIC,

let's ask again. Although I find "Len Colby" rather annoying, to say the least, he has observed, accurately, that some of us were asked to answer

a few simple questions by you, which we did. Now...

Simple questions, Jim:

1) Was Lovelady lying?

2) Were all the people who said that Lovelady was in front of the TSBD all lying?

3) If they were not lying, can you find him somewhere in Altgens 6 or in other images?

4) If they all were lying, where do you think he really was since he was not out front?

5) Why have no witnesses ever turned up stating where Lovelady actually was?

FETZER said in another thread:

"So, according to Robin Unger and John Dolva (and many more, no doubt), when these eyewitnesses--

who, unlike Unger and Dolva, WERE ACTUALLY THERE--reported that the limo had come to a halt,

they (according to Unger and Dolva) must have been LYING THEIR EYES OFF. How absurd can this get?"

Using your own standard, I ask you:

6) So, according to James Fetzer and Ralph Cinque, when these eyewitnesses--who, unlike Fetzer and Cinque, WERE ACTUALLY THERE--

reported that Lovelady was Doorman, they (according to Fetzer and Cinque) must have been lying their eyes off. How absurd can this get?

[END]==============================================================================================================

So what happened? Fetzer and Cinque know that they are beaten by this argument (using their own standard) UNLESS they can find Lovelady

somewhere in Altgens 6. So, in an obviously desperate attempt to justify their folly they suddenly find him in the most obscurely hidden area of

the entire photo! Why? Because if Lovelady isn't Doorman and isn't "somewhere" on the steps, then ALL eyewitnesses on the steps were lying!

A theory so absurd that even Fetzer & Cinque don't buy it!

...

Edited March 8, 2013 by Greg Burnham

[Ralph Cinque]

Robin, never mind that. Just look at the black line that is overlapping his forearm. What is it?

It has to be something. It can't be nothing. If it isn't Lovelady's handiwork, what is it? It can't be a shadow because a shadow would appear on every copy of the Altgens.

Give me an alternative. Address it directly? If it's not Lovelady's arrow, what is it?

To my dismay, the moderators are boycotting me; they are ignoring my posts. So, I am going to respond here to later posts.

Pat Speers and Robin Unger are now claiming that Black Hole Man in the Altgens photo is a woman.

http://tinypic.com/r/wits9v/6

It was first suggested by Pat Speers, and then Robin Unger chimed in:

"No, Pat, you are not alone in thinking it may be a woman.

We know from the testimonies that at least three TSBD women employees stated that they were standing on the steps: Judith McCully, Avery Davis, Sarah Stanton ( Confirmed )"

"The more I looked at the folded hands of the black hole figure, the more the hands seem to be effeminate hands like those of a woman."

"The fact is, that according to the testimonies there were at least three women who claimed to have actually been standing on the steps during the assassination, and we need to be realistic, and start making room for them in the doorway area in Altgens6."

"I also agree with Pat that to me it looks more like a woman’s loose fitting summer blouse than a man's shirt."

Friends, we have just entered The Twilight Zone. This isn't just misguided. It isn't just mistaken. It is insane. That guy is obviously a man. There isn't anything effeminate about him, including his hands. And I am not going to say another word about it because this is just insanity to even talk about it. Robin Unger also insists that these two are one and the same:

http://tinypic.com/r/23wpfmd/6

I hope no one will be offended by what I am about to say, but in the above collage, the masculinity of the figure on the left, and the femininity of the figure on the right, are so great for each of them, that we might as well be seeing his penis and her vagina. That's the only thing that could take it to a higher level of gender certainty.

Then, there is David Von Pein, one of the most prolific ops to ever operate the operation in op-land. I don't know how much they pay him, but it can't be enough because he is truly a marvel.

First, he asks how Lovelady could even know he was Black Hole Man since Black Hole Man doesn't have a face. Yeah, but he has a body, and he has clothes. He has a certain size. He's engaged in a certain gesture. He's in a certain location, a certain spot, at a certain time that would have been drilled in his memory. A clever man could figure it out, don't you think?

Then he hones on Josephs Ball's directions to Lovelady:

"Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. Draw

an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you."

Von Pein takes that as proof that Lovelady must have drawn the arrow to Doorman.

But, we have CE 369. It's insane to rely on lip-flapping. We can look at it and see where the arrow is. And the arrow is located amidst Black Hole Man, and it is pointing to him. It is actually there, undeniably there, and it is insane to ignore it. But DVP goes on:

"It couldn't be any clearer from Joseph Ball's words during Lovelady's testimony that the arrows drawn on CE 369 by both Buell Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady are both pointing to "Doorway Man" in the Altgens photo:"

"You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you." -- Joseph A. Ball

Yes, I know Ball said that but just because he flapped his lips that way doesn't mean it really was that way. We have a distinct black line on the right forearm of Black Hole Man. Now, if you don't think it's part of Lovelady's arrrow, tell us what you think it is. I'm waiting. You can't ignore it. You can't deny it. You can't just change the subject. What the heck is it? You must answer. If you don't, you lose.

And here's an idea, David, and it may blow your mind: Joseph Ball lied. How do we know? Because we can see two distinct arrows in CE 369, and they are pointing to two different men.

So now, the question is: who are you going to believe: your own eyes or Joseph Ball's lips?

"Don't you think that Mr. Ball was fairly clear as to WHO Frazier's arrow "in the white" was pointing to when Ball said these words -- "IN THE WHITE POINTING TOWARD YOU"? The "you" in the above quote is, of course, Billy Lovelady."

It's beyond doubt that Frazier's arrow in the white points to Doorway Man. But, in inferring that Lovelady's arrow also pointed to Doorman, Mr. Ball was simply stating what he wanted to believe. He was stating the reality he had decided upon in advance. He was stating the result he was ordered to find.

"Plus, Ball's quote is certainly not implying that the two arrows were each pointing toward a different person in the photo. Just the opposite, in fact. Since we know, via Ball's words, that Frazier's arrow "in the white" is definitely pointing to a person deemed to be "you" (Lovelady), it HAS to mean that any arrow drawn in by Lovelady MUST also be pointing to the same person Frazier's arrow is pointing to. Because why in the world would Lovelady draw an arrow pointing to someone OTHER than himself in the Altgens photo?"

Can you see how circular Von Pein's reasoning is above? He is completely out of touch with reality. He actually wants to decipher the contents of the photo by parsing the words of Joseph Ball rather than by looking at the photo. We might as well throw the photo away. Who needs it when we have the words of Joseph Ball? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. And pay no attention the actual evidence. Don't bother looking at it. Instead, soak up the words and wisdom of a Warren Commission lawyer who was brought in to craft the case against Lee Harvey Oswald because surely even a CT like me would not and could not cast doubt on the integrity of Joseph Ball.

David, you are apparently unaware of what I would say to Joseph if I had the opportunity to speak to him. And he better hope that I don't wind up in the same place as he is in the next life because it won't be pleasant for him. I am not going to mince words with the guy. I'm going to tell him what I really think of him.

Get this in your head, David Von Pein: I rate Joseph Ball as a killer. He was an accessory after the fact in the murder of John F. Kennedy. Joseph Ball was a criminal, and I would like to see him tried posthumously. Are you beginning to understand?

Joseph Ball was covering and scrambling in what he said back to Lovelady. He was trying to get out of a jam. Only Warren Report defenders like you treat him with respect. What he deserves is contempt.

Von Pein finishes this way:

"Ralph found no arrow. We can KNOW that Ralph found no arrow pointing to someone OTHER than "Doorway Man" because of what I just said about Ball's "in the white pointing toward you" quote."

Then what did I find, David? It's there. It's something. You can't ignore it. Leastways, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

What is that line overlapping Black Hole Man's forearm?

It is the arrow that BIlly Lovelady drew, about which you are in denial, because you, like Joseph Ball, are acting to protect killers.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Ralph Cinque

[Robin Unger]

There is absolutely no point coming on the forum with great fanfare,and claiming that you have made a new exiting discovery

If you don't first have the SOLID evidence to back up your claim.

Those poor resolution, highly pixilated images are not SOLID evidence, they prove nothing !

Edited March 8, 2013 by Robin Unger

[David Von Pein]

Ralph Cinque's nonsense never stops, does it?

I guess Ralph thinks the HSCA or Lovelady (or both) lied through their teeth when the HSCA said this in their final report:

"The committee's belief that the man in the doorway was Lovelady was also supported by an interview with Lovelady in which he affirmed to committee investigators that he was the man in the photograph."

Edited March 8, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ralph Cinque]

I admit that Lovelady changed course. He got with the program. I'm sure they pressured him tremendously. They may have threatened his life and the lives of his family members.

But listen: that tail of the arrow is plainly on the forearm of Black Hole Man. If it's not Lovelady's arrow, then whose is it? And if you don't think it's an arrow at all, then what is it? It can't be a shadow because it would occur in all copies of the Altgens photo if it was a shadow.

So, what is it? Save the rest, just tell me what it is.

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, Robin posted a much clearer version of the Altgens on one of the other threads. It seemed pretty clear to me from looking at this that the person in question's right sleeve came up to the forearm, IOW, that this person was wearing a blouse. NOT a short sleeved shirt.

I'm convinced this person is a woman. Am I alone in this?

[David Von Pein]

I'd like to ask Ralph this:

Since the face of "Black Hole Man" is obscured, then how on Earth could Lovelady know for certain if that was him in the picture or not? Who can tell? The face of that person is not discernible at all in CE369.

I suppose you can always say that even though the person's face can't be identified, Lovelady knew he was shielding his eyes from the sun when the President drove by the building, and that's how he knew "Black Hole" was really him.

Edited March 8, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I admit that Lovelady changed course. He got with the program. I'm sure they pressured him tremendously. They may have threatened his life and the lives of his family members.

My, my. How convenient for you, Ralph.

Just pretend everything's fake AND everybody's lying.

That's pretty much the motto you live by, isn't it Ralph?

Edited March 8, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Len Colby]

Huh? I only see one arrow.

[David Von Pein]

Huh? I only see one arrow.

"Warren Commission Exhibit No. 369 (which is a picture of James

Altgens' photograph showing Doorway Man) was actually marked with TWO

different arrows pointing toward Lovelady (aka Doorway Man).

CE369 was first marked with an arrow by Buell Wesley Frazier on March

11, 1964, at 2 H 242:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0125b.htm

And that same exhibit was then marked with another arrow by Billy

Lovelady himself on April 7, 1964 (at 6 H 338):

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0174b.htm

When looking at the picture of CE369, I cannot see the

second arrow that was drawn in. I see only one dark arrow to the left

(west) of Lovelady. But the testimony is very clear -- TWO arrows were

drawn on CE369, the first one by Wesley Frazier when the exhibit was

first introduced into evidence by the Warren Commission on March 11th;

and a second arrow marked on the same picture by Billy Lovelady on

April 7th.

Now, from the testimony, it's a bit unclear as to which witness

(Frazier or Lovelady) drew in the dark arrow that is easily visible in

CE369. But that visible arrow might very well have been drawn by

Frazier and not Lovelady. But I'm not entirely sure of that.

But Joseph Ball's instructions to Lovelady might give a clue. Ball

said this to Lovelady:

"Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. .... Draw

an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark

and one in the white pointing toward you."

So, via the above testimony, it's possible that Lovelady's arrow is

"in the dark" and cannot be easily seen.

I suppose this confusion about who drew the dark arrow pointing to

Doorway Man in CE369 will spark some additional controversy concerning

the true identity of the man in the TSBD doorway, with some conspiracy

theorists possibly wanting to now claim that Billy Lovelady didn't

really mark CE369 at all with an arrow in 1964.

But it's quite clear to me from the Warren Commission records that

BOTH Wesley Frazier AND Billy Lovelady drew separate arrows pointing

to the SAME PERSON (Doorway Man) in Commission Exhibit No. 369.

And, of course, as I've pointed out in previous posts, there's also

Wes Frazier's testimony at the 1986 mock trial in London, where

Frazier identified Doorway Man as Lovelady."

David Von Pein

June 4, 2012

Edited March 9, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ralph Cinque]

TO DVP:

There can't be any doubt that the big prominent arrow that we see and have been seeing for decades was drawn by Buell Fraizer. As you pointed out, his arrow was drawn in the white, and that arrow is mostly in the white.

My assumption is that, up to now, people thought that Lovelady's arrow was invisible because it was drawn in the blackness with a black felt pen, so it was like drawing a picture of a black cat in a coal mine with his eyes closed at midnight- nothing but black.

But, that was just an assumption, and added to the assumption was the foregone conclusion that Lovelady must have drawn the arrow to Doorway Man. And I fell for it too because I had previously examined the dark space above Doorman's head looking for traces of Lovelady's arrow. But, I never found a glimmer of anything.

But then, last night, it struck me: what if I've been looking at the wrong spot? What if Lovelady drew his arrow elsewhere, far away from Doorman? So, I started looking at Black Hole Man precisely because we think he was the real Lovelady. And lo and behold, I found that subtle little arrow.

Here is the version of CE 369 posted on the history-matters website. On this one, when I blow it up, I can actually see the whole arrow, which consists of three lines: a tail and two arms. I can see the whole arrow.

So, that is definitely an arrow, and the only one who could have drawn it is Lovelady since Frazier drew the other one. That's clear from the testimony that you posted, David. Ball told Lovelady to draw his arrow in the dark because there was already one in the white.

But what does this say about Joseph Ball? Billy Lovelady drew an arrow to a different figure than Frazier did, and Ball had to see it. Why didn't he say,

"Stop everything! This changes everything! You're saying that you were one guy, after Frazie said you were another guy. We have got to get to the bottom of it."

But Ball didn't say anything like that, did he. He just pretended for the court reporter that both arrows were directed at the same figure. That is so wrong. It makes Joseph Ball a conspirator in the assassination of President Kennedy.

[Robin Unger]

FWIW, Robin posted a much clearer version of the Altgens on one of the other threads. It seemed pretty clear to me from looking at this that the person in question's right sleeve came up to the forearm, IOW, that this person was wearing a blouse. NOT a short sleeved shirt.

I'm convinced this person is a woman. Am I alone in this?

Pat

No you are not alone in thinking it may be a woman

we know from the testimonies that at least three Tsbd women employees stated that they were standing on the steps.

Judith McCully, Avery Davis, Sarah Stanton ( Confirmed )

The more i looked at the folded hands of the black hole figure, the more the hands seemed to be effeminate hands like those of a woman.

The fact is, that according to the Testimonies there were at least three woman who claimed to have actually been standing on the steps during the assassination

and we need to be realistic, and start making room for them in the doorway area in Altgen's 6

I also agree with Pat that to me it looks more like a womans loose fitting summer blouse than a mans shirt

Edited March 9, 2013 by Robin Unger