Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

• BWF ... went inside shortly afterwards to pick up and eat his lunch)

Which makes him another sociopath

like all the other employees

who went back to their workplace.

No.

Frazier stood at the front entrance for several minutes ascertaining what had happened before going back inside.

Oswald--according to you--sped off upstairs for a coke within seconds of the shooting.

Big difference.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I'm sorry to belabour the point, but it's not going to go away:

To invest simultaneously in the notion that Oswald could be Prayer Man and in the notion that the second-floor lunchroom incident happened just as Baker and Truly described to the WC is to portray Oswald's immediate reaction to the shooting as utterly bizarre, if not downright suspicious.

Do you really want to go down that road?

Sean, you remind me of my four kids.

They are the greatest kids in the world

but none of them has read

Leo Sauvage or Harold Weisberg

or Sylvia Meagher,

whose image I am not allowed to post

You are missing the boat here,

Mr. Murphy!

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

No.

Frazier stood at the front entrance for several minutes ascertaining what had happened before going back inside.

Oswald--according to you--sped off upstairs for a coke within seconds of the shooting.

Big difference.

Sean, me lad

do you have any idea

how ridiculous you sound?

Lots of people had motive

to want JFK dead.

but Oz was not

among them!

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Deputy Sheriff Mooney testified to the WC that he believed the two men coming down the stairs were also plainclothes deputy sheriffs. He does not identify who they were, nor does he say whether he asked them for credentials.

Were these two men ever identified?

No, Robert, they haven't, and their presence coming down the stairs a few minutes after the shooting makes a nonsense of the WC-defender idea that it would have been impossible for a stranger or strangers to exit the building from the sixth floor undetected or unchallenged.

Hello Sean

Very interesting. In all the years I have been studying the assassination, I have only given Deputy Mooney's story of his ascent to the 6th floor a passing glance. However, reading his WC testimony again has most definitely aroused my suspicions.

"Mr. Mooney - I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top."

Right off the top, Deputy Mooney is taking an elevator up to look for an armed killer, and he agrees to drop two women off on the 2nd floor? Strange.

Then he meets two men coming downstairs at the 4th floor (busy place, that 4th floor landing) and he "believes" they were plainclothes deputy sheriffs? Not only do I find it odd that he does not challenge two unidentified strangers and ask for ID's, I also find it odd he was unable to recognize them if they worked out of the Dallas Sheriff's Dept., as he did. How many deputy sheriffs were there in Dallas in 1963? Possibly one hundred? Or less? For comparison, I live in a somewhat isolated village of 300 people. While I may not be on a first name basis with everyone here, I know everyone here to see them and can spot a stranger in town immediately. It might be understandable if he did not recognize newly hired recruits to the Sheriff's Dept., but these were plainclothes officers; suggesting these were men of some seniority. I find it extremely odd that Deputy Mooney would simply let these people pass without challenging them, if he did not recognize them. Even odder, the WC lawyer made no attempt to pursue the subject.

And then he just happened to stop on the 6th floor without even knowing which floor he was on. Right...Pull the other one, Mooney, it plays Jingle Bells.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Frazier stood at the front entrance for several minutes ascertaining what had happened before going back inside.

Oswald--according to you--sped off upstairs for a coke within seconds of the shooting.

Big difference.

I am a slow learner, Sean,

because I am stupid enough

to be the only one here

who believes

that OZ is innocent.

Please explain

this so called BIG difference.

And please spare me

the dime store psychology!

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[William Kelly]

Can anyone identify the person who took this film, when it was taken, where in it is- what floor? and who are the guys in suits and hats that Baker and Truly are talking to?

Bill, the film was taken by Roy Cooper 11/22. It shows the rear of the first floor. The other men have not been identified. Heartbreakingly, there's no audio!

(Gary Mack gave me this information a few years back.)

Thanks Sean,

I'd like to get a time estimate on this - 12:45? - and id the others - at first I thought they were plainclothes cops, but DPD homicide had the big cowboy hats - and others wore the fedora these guys are wearing - but so did Tom Landry, Jack Ruby and manager types, so it could be Campbell or Shelley or ?

Also, as to your question regarding Oswald's bizarre quest for a coke - I would posit that whether "Prayer Man" or not, from my perspective, Oswald was on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination, ate his cheese sandwich and fruit when he sees Junior - and he is seen by Mrs. Arnold - then he goes up to the second floor and gets change from Mrs. Hine, and then either goes down and is "Prayer Man" or - he does what most people do after he eat he goes to he men's room on the west side of the second floor - and may have window overlooking the Grassy Knoll, washes up and then comes out and makes a left down the hall ten yards to buy his coke - just as he has every other day, and if he isn't "Prayer Man" he doesn't know JFK is shot, and is stopped by Baker without the coke and then is seen by Reid with it, and she informs him the JFK shot and then Oswald goes into "Operational Mode."

It really bothers me that Baker doesn't mention Oswald - who was sitting in Fritz's office a few yards away - in his report unless he had already dictated it - and when I get around to it I'm going to try to put together what we can know about the interrogation of Oswald, as I think it is very telling.

And I think that the next big JFK Assassination symposium should be held in Dublin.

Can anyone identify the person who took this film, when it was taken, where in it is- what floor? and who are the guys in suits and hats that Baker and Truly are talking to?

Bill, the film was taken by Roy Cooper 11/22. It shows the rear of the first floor. The other men have not been identified. Heartbreakingly, there's no audio!

(Gary Mack gave me this information a few years back.)

Th

Edited August 29, 2013 by William Kelly

[Martin Hinrichs]

Martin, I don't know where we'd be without you and Robin (and Gerda, if only she'd report back for duty...).

Is that a jerk in Prayer Man's arm??

While you're there--would you know how one might go about evaluating and if necessary correcting the Darnell frames for aspect-ratio distortion?

Thank you Sean.

Sean, the aspect ratio in all frames is the same. What makes it difficult to examine, is the odd heavy blur in some frames.

Gerda erased them too as far as i know. I just wanted to show both version.

For Research purpose, i would use this vesion with all blurry frames erased:

In this version, this person is still frozen. Thats a really strange fellow.

This person has what looks like a camera up to his face in Wiegman....lowered down in Couch.

But i surely don't know what that strange behavior with the arms is.

Here a closeup crop of the Wiegman film:

best to you

Martin

Edited August 29, 2013 by Martin Hinrichs

[Terry Adams]

Martin, I was thinking that it looked like a person taking pictures as well. IMO, he had to get in the shade to do so, because otherwise in the sunlight he would only get glare and would be unable to see what he was attempting to get a picture of. As much as I think that prayerman looks like Oswald and thought we had the smoking gun, I do believe a camera in his hands would remove him from consideration. (that is, of course, if it is a camera that he is holding)

[Richard Hocking]

Martin, I was thinking that it looked like a person taking pictures as well. IMO, he had to get in the shade to do so, because otherwise in the sunlight he would only get glare and would be unable to see what he was attempting to get a picture of. As much as I think that prayerman looks like Oswald and thought we had the smoking gun, I do believe a camera in his hands would remove him from consideration. (that is, of course, if it is a camera that he is holding)

I applaud your open-mindedness, and your willingness to go where the evidence leads. But there are some other considerations, and I think we need to re-evaluate the conclusion you reached.

If we assume for this discussion that Prayer Man is holding a camera, we would have to account for the following:

1. No one in the Stair Group mentions having a camera in their testimony. Specifically, none of the men, including Shelley, Lovelady, Williams, Molina or Frazier. No one mentions seeing someone on the steps taking pictures.

2. No picture has ever emerged from that specific location. A picture of the motorcade from that location would have received a great deal of attention and probable press coverage.

3. We have already debunked the notion that a stranger could have stood unnoticed in the stair group, let alone a stranger with a camera.

4. There is a high probability that the authorities would have taken the camera as evidence and examined the film, ala Moorman, Babushka Lady, and others.

What about the possiblity that Oswald had brought his camera? We know he previously worked at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, that he was knowledgeable and had an interest in photography. This is probably the only scenario that might hold some water. There are some difficulties with this, in that no one in the Oswald interviews (Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout, Holmes, etc) reports any discussion of Lee having a camera with him that day.

From my viewpoint, a camera is much harder to account for than a coke.

Edit: Replace "JCS" with Jagger-Chiles-Stovall, for clarity

Edited August 29, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Sean Murphy]

And I think that the next big JFK Assassination symposium should be held in Dublin.

No, Bill--Wexford!

[Sean Murphy]

Here a closeup crop of the Wiegman film:

Superb stuff, Martin.

Looks to me like Prayer Man's right hand is significantly higher than his left here.

Contrast the 'join' in Darnell:

My money is still on a Coca-Cola--taking a swig in Wiegman, return to two-hand clasp by Darnell.

[Sean Murphy]

My money is still on a Coca-Cola--taking a swig in Wiegman, return to two-hand clasp by Darnell.

Or... this (minus the camera!):

What was that Fritz said again?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.

Thanks, Will, old buddy.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

This person has what looks like a camera up to his face in Wiegman....lowered down in Couch.

But i surely don't know what that strange behavior with the arms is.

Hello Martin, and thank you for that amazing clip. I am writing an article about the discovery of Prayer Man,

and would like to find out more about Gerda Gunckel. Does anyone have her photo?

We know that Prayer Man Lee was a fan of JFK.

I submit that we see here

a man APPLAUDING his

FEARLESS LEADER!

who has just passed by.

Elementary,

my dear Watson!

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

And I think that the next big JFK Assassination symposium should be held in Dublin.

No, Bill--Wexford!

Wexford is appropriate because

it has an opera festival

and Prayer Man Lee was

an opera buff.

But New Ross is JFK's ancestral hometown

so New Ross gets my vote.

1. June 27, 1963 - President John F. Kennedy's Remarks ... - YouTube
   www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9CSA4SK5pQ‎

   Nov 29, 2012 - Uploaded by HelmerReenberg

   When my great-grandfather left here to... become a cooper in East Boston, he carried nothing with him except ...

   a strong religious faith and

   a strong desire for LIBERTY!

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9CSA4SK5pQ

   It makes me laugh when I think back,

   but my first job out of Law school was with

   Thomas J. Kelly & Son,

   now merged into....

   http://www.coghlankelly.com/

   I am sure the present partners would be delighted

   to get their names in the paper

   for sponsoring the conference.

   Between the Murphys and the Kellys......

   Lord please make me STRONG!

   I could arrange free transportation from Dublin airport

   and hotels and B&B's are reasonable

   outside the Summer season.

   Dublin is not too far away for most of us,

   except Richard Hocking and Robin Unger.

   If Richard or Robin needs help with the fare

   I'm betting everyone here would contribute.

   For my part as a superannuated person living on a pension,

   I hereby pledge one hundred bucks!

   I can promise that the craic will be mighty in John V. Kelly's

   my favorite New Ross pub.

   On a lighter note, Bill,

   are you any relation to the famous Austrtalian outlaw

   Ned Kelly?

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr7bBaC86pY

   If you listen carefully to Mick Jagger, who plays Ned Kelly

   you will hear that one of the troopers who captured

   the wild colonial boy

   was another Kelly.

   I've got twenty bucks that says our Wild Bill Kelly is related

   to BOTH of them!

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I just received a phone call from Paul McCartney,

who tells me he is a fan of the forum

and is enjoying this Prayer Man thread.

Paul sounded nearly ecstatic

at names like Hocking, Heinrich, and especially Duncan Macrae.

He insisted on dedicating this song especially to Duncan,

though he confided that, personally, he thinks Duncan needs a haircut!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFRcMYjut4o

Paul says he will see us all at John V. Kellys.

Paul & I will be staying at

Faithlegg House Hotel Golf and Country Club

4 stars

http://www.hotels.com/de693866/hotels-new-ross-ireland/

Paul reminded me that,

if you read Mark Lane's

A Citizen's Dissent

He is on record as saying

Well he couldn't have done it, could he?

Edited August 29, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll