Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Ray Mitcham]

I believe that's exactly what Lee Oswald did tell Fritz he was doing--only he didn't say he was doing it in the second-floor lunchroom, he said he was doing it out front.

I believe Oswald named one of the "employees" he had been eating lunch with, and it wasn't 'Junior' [Jarman] or the short 'negro' [Norman] (whose names did come up in a different context). It was Bill Shelley.

Are you recommending a faith-based approach by the rest of us, Sean?

Just because you were the genius who discovered Prayer Man

does not mean we should believe everything you believe,

like the perjured testimony of Will Fritz

which was proven false when his notes revealed that Prayer Man told him

that when the president passed by he was

Out with Bill Shelley in front.

I think we have the FBI guys confirming that he said

he was getting a coke on the second floor when the policeman came in.

And I again submit that Prayer Man

is clapping his hands.

Ray, if Prayer man is clapping his hands, what is the white reflection?

[Larry Hancock]

Sean, a great post and a very interesting line of research. As I mentioned earlier, first reports always outweigh later memories. And in my book first reports of the first day outweigh just

about everything else given to the certain phenomena of "convergence" - in other words if everybody else says they saw something then I must have misremembered. In the JFK murder

that started quite quite quickly because both the DPD and FBI were pushing for evidence against Oswald, not a broad, wide open investigation. Perhaps not so much DPD the first

48 hours but with the Hoover memo of Saturday morning the FBI clearly had its orders to focus on a case against Oswald. And Hoover clearly wanted to bring the DPD in line ASAP.

-- keep at it, Larry

[Martin Hinrichs]

Ray, if Prayer man is clapping his hands, what is the white reflection?

Correct question Ray Mitcham.

The white spot is static within the moving sequence in Wiegman.

Thats not clapping hands. They would move.

The idea of a bottle is reaching my mind more and more. Even it appears to be strange when thinking of Oswald.

But we try to deal with facts and this is photographic evidence.

Is that a bottle?

Martin

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just a thought re the Wiegman.........Assume that Prayer Man is holding a bottle of Coke in his right hand. As Prayer Man proceeds to take a sip from the bottle, he brings it up to his mouth and tilts the bottle back (so that the bottle is almost horizontal as he is taking his sip). The round, light area in front of Prayer Man's lower facial region could be a reflection of light off of the round base of a Coke bottle.

Exactly, Michael, glint off a coke bottle is a very strong possibility.

The fact that Wiegman shows one hand up to the face while the other is still kept raised to chest level is IMO extremely significant, for it suggests

a ) he cannot have been using a camera

b ) he was holding something in both hands.

What I'm seeing is either this--

--or its reverse (i.e. drinking the coke using one hand and holding the sandwich in the other).

Again we must remind ourselves of Fritz's words during his WC testimony:

Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.[/size]

I believe that's exactly what Lee Oswald did tell Fritz he was doing--only he didn't say he was doing it in the second-floor lunchroom, he said he was doing it out front.

If so, then Fritz has just seconds before his comment above committed a major boo-boo:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...[/size]

He was having his lunch ... he was eating lunch: same timeframe, same claim.

I believe Oswald named one of the "employees" he had been eating lunch with, and it wasn't 'Junior' [Jarman] or the short 'negro' [Norman] (whose names did come up in a different context). It was Bill Shelley.

Excellent observation. I think you have pretty well eliminated the possibility of Prayer Man holding a camera.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray, if Prayer man is clapping his hands, what is the white reflection?

Correct question Ray Mitcham.

The white spot is static within the moving sequence in Wiegman.

That's not clapping hands. They would move.

But they moved, I tell ya,

in that fabulous clip you posted earlier.

Is that a bottle?

Martin

Martin, you remind me of that English bloke

from Stratford -on-- Avon.

His name escapes me now

but he is not Sir Francis Bacon.

Is this a BOTTLE that I see before me?

I fear I should refrain.

Addiction to the BOTTLE

could leave all our work in vain.

Edited August 31, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Tom Hume]

Several popular cameras of that era, Hasselblad and Rolleiflex to name two expensive ones, had cranks on the right hand side to advance the film. I'm remembering three or four cranks, but maybe Robin or another photographic expert could tell us how many cranks are required on some of these cameras.

To reiterate from a previous post, I'm exploring the possibility that Oswald was actively trying to prevent the assassination, and he probably didn't know if his efforts were going to be successful. Pure speculation: Suspecting that he would be shot on the spot if he was at his assigned location in the building, he was absent, and should have been establishing an alibi for himself at that critical moment. From the footage of Prayer Man that we see, it seems reasonable to speculate that that might be Oswald standing in the shadows, cranking his Rollei for all he's worth, quickly taking as many photographs of the activity around him as he could, and occasionally turning the camera on himself to insure that his own image would be in the middle of the film strip. With a piece of evidence like that, there's only one place he could have been at that time.

Continuing to speculate, Oswald was taking photos in the shadows because the sun was in front of him, not photographing the motorcade, especially, but the people gathered in front of him, people he knew and people that would know exactly where they were at those moments. And since his camera was a double lens with a crank and the viewfinder on the top, he would need to hold the camera high to capture as many people as possible.

A critical element of his photo alibi would be interspersing pictures of his very own face. Being a photographer and having thought hard about his alibi, he was prepared. He could not take the time to adjust the shutter speed between shots of himself and shots of the other witnesses, so he would need a small flashlight to light his face, and as any old-time backyard mechanic knows, the best place to store your little flashlight to keep your hands free is your mouth. When shooting himself, of course, the flashlight comes out of the mouth and is held next to the camera.

Flashlight in mouth - hence the white spot we see in the middle of Prayer Mans face?

If it had been me, I would have put the flashlight in my shirt pocket and sung "She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain" at the top of my lungs.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Tom Hume

[Richard Hocking]

Several popular cameras of that era, Hasselblad and Rolleiflex to name two expensive ones, had cranks on the right hand side to advance the film. I'm remembering three or four cranks, but maybe Robin or another photographic expert could tell us how many cranks are required on some of these cameras.

To reiterate from a previous post, I'm exploring the possibility that Oswald was actively trying to prevent the assassination, and he probably didn't know if his efforts were going to be successful. Pure speculation: Suspecting that he would be shot on the spot if he was at his assigned location in the building, he was absent, and should have been establishing an alibi for himself at that critical moment. From the footage of Prayer Man that we see, it seems reasonable to speculate that that might be Oswald standing in the shadows, cranking his Rollei for all he's worth, quickly taking as many photographs of the activity around him as he could, and occasionally turning the camera on himself to insure that his own image would be in the middle of the film strip. With a piece of evidence like that, there's only one place he could have been at that time.

Continuing to speculate, Oswald was taking photos in the shadows because the sun was in front of him, not photographing the motorcade, especially, but the people gathered in front of him, people he knew and people that would know exactly where they were at those moments. And since his camera was a double lens with a crank and the viewfinder on the top, he would need to hold the camera high to capture as many people as possible.

A critical element of his photo alibi would be interspersing pictures of his very own face. Being a photographer and having thought hard about his alibi, he was prepared. He could not take the time to adjust the shutter speed between shots of himself and shots of the other witnesses, so he would need a small flashlight to light his face, and as any old-time backyard mechanic knows, the best place to store your little flashlight to keep your hands free is your mouth. When shooting himself, of course, the flashlight comes out of the mouth and is held next to the camera.

Flashlight in mouth - hence the white spot we see in the middle of Prayer Mans face?

If it had been me, I would have put the flashlight in my shirt pocket and sung "She'll be Comin' Round the Mountain" at the top of my lungs.

Tom, I think you have stated the most likely motive for PM/Oswald having a camera; an alibi.

If LHO was indeed taking photos from the front entrance, we can be equally sure that evidence would never see the light of day.

Given our knowledge that nobody else in the stair group was taking pictures or had a camera with them, we could make another statement with a high degree of confidence: If PM is holding a camera, it is strong evidence that Oswald is Prayer Man.

Having noted that, I am still leaning more toward the object in PM's hands being a coke.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

How does choosing the parade route give Forrest Sorrels the ability to know if Oswald is still in the TSBD?

I think after 50 years and some amazing research,

the broad outlines of the plot keep on becoming clearer, IMO.

From John Newman we know that Angleton & Co. were monitoring Oz,

and from David Lifton and Vince Palamara we know

a number of Secret Service agents were involved.

Sorrels had to be key plotter,

because he is the man

who led JFK into ambush.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Vicki Adams worked on the fourth floor of the TSBD and watched the assassination from a south-facing window on that floor in the company of several colleagues.

She claimed to have run down the back stairs to the first floor with her colleague Sandra Styles, and insisted that she and Sandra had left the fourth floor window within just seconds of the last shot being fired and had gone downstairs immediately.

For many years, conspiracy theorists have pointed to the eyebrow-raising fact that she didn't see or hear Oswald coming down the stairs.

In more recent years however, and in particular since the appearance of Barry Ernest's provocative book The Girl on the Stairs, WC defenders have pointed to a no less eyebrow-raising fact: she didn't see or hear Mr. Truly and a police officer coming up the stairs.

How, these WC defenders have asked, and not without good reason it has to be said, could the two pairs of people have possibly missed each other entirely if Adams and Styles had really hit those rear stairs as quickly as Adams claimed? Does not this prove that Adams was mistaken and must have gone downstairs at some point after Baker and Truly had gone past the fourth floor?

**

This was my own view at one time, for I had had a lengthy telephone conversation with Sandra Styles in 2008.

Sandra told me that her recollection was that she and Vicki had gone downstairs significantly later than Vicki had claimed.

That, I thought, was that. Oliver Stone would have to cut those memorable frames from his next edit of JFK.

**

Then Barry's book came out. In it he gave details of a telephone conversation he had had with Sandra several years earlier (and long before my contact with her). Sandra, he reported, said that she and Vicki had left the front window just as the Presidential limousine was about to enter the triple underpass.

I immediately went on to a couple of JFK assassination research forums and, in so many words, accused Barry of being a xxxx. For Sandra had given me a very different timeline.

**

But something was bothering me.

It was a certain document which Barry had discovered and reproduced in his book--a registered letter, dated 2 June 1964, sent by Martha Joe Stroud, assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, to J. Lee Rankin, WC general counsel:

Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up: did not these words offer sensational vindication of Vicki Adams's unwavering claim to have gone downstairs at once?

**

I decided to re-contact Sandra Styles, this time by email, and put to her the information contained in the Stroud document.

She seemed genuinely taken aback, if not nonplussed, by Garner's reported claim.

She then restated several times something that she had said in our original conversation and in the follow-up emails, something that I had heard but not really processed, putting it down to the lady's self-effacing modest personality: she could not rule out the possibility that Vicki's recollection was the more accurate one. Memory, she said, plays funny tricks and all she could tell me at this point was that "logic tells me" that it was later than Vicki said.

She also, for the first time, mentioned that the authorities who interviewed her had told her that the police had not started their search of the TSBD building until some 15-20 minutes (!) after the assassination. This had always bothered her, and seemed to have played a role in fixing her 'memory' of having gone downstairs minutes rather than seconds after the shooting.

**

Vicki Adams's claim was suddenly back in contention, at least for me.

But the Stroud document, even as it supported her timeline, only undermined her story all over again:

for, if Baker and Truly came up on to the fourth floor landing after Adams and Styles left it for the stairs down, how in heaven's name did they all manage to miss one another?

There was, it is true, a tiny window (pun half-intended) in which this could conceivably have happened: Baker and Truly over at the second-floor lunchroom entrance while Adams and Styles are running across the second-floor landing. But it was a tiny and, truth be told, rather ludicrous one--the sound of two women in high heels hurrying down the noisy wooden stairs from three to two, across the landing and then down the stairs from two to one would not have gone unnoticed.

**

In June 2011 Barry Ernest managed to track down Dorothy Garner, the Scott, Foresman & Co. office supervisor mentioned in the Stroud document.

What she told him bears transcribing at length:

Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.

"The girls did," she responded. "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."

They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.

What did Mrs. Garner do after that?

"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."

Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the

elevators. But how fast had she arrived there?

Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She

couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something." Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth- floor landing seconds after. When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down. I remember the stairs were very noisy."

Were the freight elevators in operation during this time?

"I don't recall that," she answered. "They were very noisy too!"

Mrs. Garner said she remained at that spot and was alone for a moment before "several came out back from the office to look out those windows there."

Anyone doubting that Barry is giving us a fair rendition of what Ms. Garner told him should consider very carefully what he says happened when he raised the crux question:

Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police officer come up the stairs together?

"I could have," she answered, "but there was so much confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"

**

It is, I submit, a testament to Barry's honesty as a researcher that he has given us faithfully what must have been for him a hugely anti-climactic answer from Dorothy Garner. After all, the Truly-Baker-coming-up-the-stairs issue was the chief reason for Barry's call to her.

I also submit that Garner's answer, when understood in proper context, is in fact far from anti-climactic.

For had she told Barry that yes, she clearly remembered seeing Truly and Baker coming up the stairs together, then we would be back to square one. How did they not see Baker and Truly while descending, etc.

Garner's 'failure' to confirm what the Stroud document says may be no failure at all.

It may be inviting us to take another look at that document:

Dorothy Garner did indeed see Mr. Truly and the police officer come up.

But can someone please show me where it says she saw them come up the stairs?

Brilliant piece of deduction, Sean, and I am especially impressed by the fact you were able to re-examine Barry Ernest's work and admit he may have been right all along. This brand of humility is sadly lacking in many researchers and prevents them, often, from seeing the truth.

On that note, is it at all possible that Sandra and Vicki were so quick going down the stairs that they were already on the 1st floor while Baker and Truly were still attempting to board the elevator (or stopping Oswald on the 1st floor)?

And, just to play the Devil's advocate (and I'm sure I'll get blasted for this one), could Vicki and Sandra have been starting down the staircase at the time Oswald was still hiding the rifle on the 6th floor? Could they have been early enough to miss Oswald AND the Baker/Truly duo?

Edited August 31, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

How does choosing the parade route give Forrest Sorrels the ability to know if Oswald is still in the TSBD?

I think after 50 years and some amazing research,

the broad outlines of the plot keep on becoming clearer, IMO.

From John Newman we know that Angleton & Co. were monitoring Oz,

and from David Lifton and Vince Palamara we know

a number of Secret Service agents were involved.

Sorrels had to be key plotter,

because he is the man

who led JFK into ambush.

I understand what you are saying, Ray, but I am not 100% convinced Forrest Sorrels planned the parade route with an ambush in mind.

Years ago, I subscribed to the theory the parade route was changed, from going straight down Main St. onto Stemmons Freeway to the 120° turn onto Elm St. then to Stemmons, for the express purpose of leading JFK past the TSBD. It was not until I visited Dealey Plaza, in the 1990's, that I saw for myself the concrete divider that prevents cars from turning off Main St. onto the Stemmons Freeway. This divider was there in 1963, as well, and prevents Main St. traffic from cutting in front of through traffic on Elm St. From what I can gather, two solutions to this problem had been considered by the Secret Service. The first would have been to place temporary ramps on the divider to allow JFK's limo to go over the divider. This was abandoned, considering how low to the ground the limo was. The second was to continue down Main St. to the next on ramp after Elm St. This was abandoned, as well, as the limo would have to travel through an unsightly and rough part of Dallas.

With this in mind, the parade route does not seem so ridiculous after all, although a plotter looking at the parade route would be quick to capitalize on the advantages of an ambush in Dealey Plaza.

Are there other clues pointing to Forrest Sorrels as an accomplice?

Edited August 31, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Martin Hinrichs]

Many theories are raising in the meantime. Lot of speculations by many who pay attention and post.

I like to deal with the photographic evidence cause it can be proven.

This person who is called Prayerman held something high to his face before the fatal shot.

The Wiegman film started some 4 seconds before the last sho(i)t.

One arm high,one arm half down with some thing highlight at his face.

In the movies he did not move.

He was standing on the last step before the landing of the stairs directly at the wall.

He did not change his position until the Darnell film.

The Darnell film starts at 20.14 sec after the HS and ends at 26.55 seconds after the HS showing Officer Baker runned into the doorway.

This are the facts among other person in that area like Lovelady.

Now i'am going to speculate....

Martin

[Sean Murphy]

As shown in post #478, Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI in March 64 that he had seen a police officer come up to the fifth floor on an elevator shortly after the assassination and take a look around the floor before leaving it again--an item of information that exposes the Baker-Truly stairs-climbing story as just that: a story.

Lest anyone be tempted to write off Williams's March statement as unreliable due to confused memory after several months, here is the report of an FBI interview with Bonnie Ray Williams dated the day after the assassination (click to enlarge):

By the time of Williams's WC testimony, as we have seen, this straightforward sighting of Marrion Baker getting off an elevator onto the fifth floor will have been coached out of memory.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[William Kelly]

As shown in post #478, Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI in March 64 that he had seen a police officer come up to the fifth floor on an elevator shortly after the assassination and take a look around the floor before leaving it again--an item of information that exposes the Baker-Truly stairs-climbing story as just that: a story.

Lest anyone be tempted to write off Williams's March statement as unreliable due to confused memory after several months, here is the report of an FBI interview with Bonnie Ray Williams dated the day after the assassination (click to enlarge):

By the time of Williams's WC testimony, as we have seen, this straightforward sighting of Marrion Baker getting off an elevator onto the fifth floor will have been coached out of memory.

Since we also have the testimony and reports of the two other guys who were with Williams as well as Baker and Truly, we know Baker and Truly came up the stairs to the fifth floor where the three black guys were hiding behind some rows of book boxes in a bin, and while they could see Baker's motorcycle hat they didn't see Truly and remained quiet and neither Baker nor Truly saw them or knew they were there. Since Dougherty took the one elevator down to the first floor - Baker and Truly took the other one to the 7th floor and explored the roof - their orignal destination.

That Baker didn't get off the elevator on the fifth floor makes it impossible for anyone to strightforward see him do it, especially if they could only see his helmet from behind the stacks of books.

You can read a false statement that Baker got off the elevator on the fifth floor, and believe it, but you must ignore the statements of four other people who were there to do so, as well as the corrected statement as coached by the Dealey Plaza Coverup Crew.

[Robin Unger]

question:

Since prayer man appears to be back in the shadows, how does the sun reach the ( camera lense, coke bottle bottom ? ) to make a sunlight reflection ?

[Sean Murphy]

By the time of Williams's WC testimony, as we have seen, this straightforward sighting of Marrion Baker getting off an elevator onto the fifth floor will have been coached out of memory.

Since we also have the testimony and reports of the two other guys who were with Williams as well as Baker and Truly, we know Baker and Truly came up the stairs to the fifth floor where the three black guys were hiding behind some rows of book boxes in a bin, and while they could see Baker's motorcycle hat they didn't see Truly and remained quiet and neither Baker nor Truly saw them or knew they were there. Since Dougherty took the one elevator down to the first floor - Baker and Truly took the other one to the 7th floor and explored the roof - their orignal destination.

That Baker didn't get off the elevator on the fifth floor makes it impossible for anyone to strightforward see him do it, especially if they could only see his helmet from behind the stacks of books.

You can read a false statement that Baker got off the elevator on the fifth floor, and believe it, but you must ignore the statements of four other people who were there to do so, as well as the corrected statement as coached by the Dealey Plaza Coverup Crew.

Bill, can you please back up your claims above by pointing us to the relevant "testimony and reports" from Harold Norman and James Jarman? Thanks.