Jump to content
The Education Forum

Oswald Leaving TSBD?


Recommended Posts

I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain [sic][~sigh~]?

Sorry. I guess it did get "off topic" yet again. So easy for that to happen, especially when a person (Bill Kelly) asked me a series of questions within this now-derailed thread. (Of course, Bill isn't to be scolded in this "off topic" regard, is he Bob? Only me.)

Should I have just ignored Bill's list of inquiries to me, Bob?

~reciprocal sigh~

Knocking threads off-topic is how you operate; it is your "modus operandi", so to speak.

And, you have not been missed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 3.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain [sic][~sigh~]?

Sorry. I guess it did get "off topic" yet again. So easy for that to happen, especially when a person (Bill Kelly) asked me a series of questions within this now-derailed thread. (Of course, Bill isn't to be scolded in this "off topic" regard, is he Bob? Only me.)

Should I have just ignored Bill's list of inquiries to me, Bob?

~reciprocal sigh~

Dave, I am going to start another thread on 50 questions Lone Nutters should answer, and we can continue the conversation there.

I will also refer the coke posts to the coke botttle thread.

BK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

Edited by Richard Hocking
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

A brief note of appreciation, Richard, for all your work in this thread. It's been exemplary. Thanks for it, and keep it coming.

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

A brief note of appreciation, Richard, for all your work in this thread. It's been exemplary. Thanks for it, and keep it coming.

Paul

Many thanks, Paul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

Hello Richard

Please do not think I was trying to take you to task for errors in the timeline; on the contrary, your timeline makes it much easier to spot discrepancies between the various testimonies.

Keep up the good work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

IARvpC6.jpg

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

Edited by Sean Murphy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strange indeed, Sean. His trip with Lovelady to the railroad yards that he testified about to the WC was never mentioned in his first day statement. Instead, he at that time only claimed he went across the street, met Gloria Calvery, went immediately back inside the TSBD, phoned his wife and was then instructed (by Truly??) to guard the elevators on the 1st floor.

Is this how Vicki Adams came to see Shelley and Lovelady by the elevators on the 1st floor on her way out the rear door? Doesn't this still make things a bit difficult, considering Truly would have been on his way upstairs with Baker by the time Shelley arrived at the elevators, and Miss Adams should have met Baker/Truly on the stairs?

If it was not Truly who instructed Shelley to guard the elevators, then who?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"

I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.

Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.

Robert,

If you go through the whole timeline, you will see there are various contradictions, along with bits of testimony that are suspicious.

This all goes back to the original intent of this timeline. From the inception, it was never intended to be a theory or a comprehensive explanation on my part. I did not exclude certain witness testimony just because I myself did not believe it.

The intent was to organize witness testimony (including testimony that I do not believe) around certain events that I considered to be significant regarding the events that unfolded in the TSBD just before and just after the assassination. There was some interpretation on my part, especially in assigning times or time ranges to events, but I do have a reasonable argument for assigning every one of those time ranges. I remain open to new information and suggestions.

I have gathered new information since this timeline was first presented. Prayer man is a perfect example, but there are other events and testimony that need to be added.

And I am in the process of updating.

It is important to remember when looking at this timeline that its value lies in being a guide or a frame of reference. So when I do finish the update, it is still going to contain contradictions and some testimony I consider to be suspect.

It is up to the user put the pieces together when trying to interpret what actually happened.

Add Edit: I should include a thank you to Robert for making his point, prompting me to do some necessary clarification.

Hello Richard

Please do not think I was trying to take you to task for errors in the timeline; on the contrary, your timeline makes it much easier to spot discrepancies between the various testimonies.

Keep up the good work!

Thank you Robert. I did not take your post that way.

It has been awhile since it was originally posted. I just felt it was time to clarify what I was trying to accomplish when I first put it together... a timeline that emphasized sightings of unidentified or suspicious individuals that were seen through the windows on the upper floors or near the Stairways, elevators and exits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the day of the assassination, Oswald's supervisor Bill Shelley gave an affidavit in which he mentioned the name of Gloria Calvery (click to enlarge):

IARvpC6.jpg

The affidavit leaves no room for ambiguity.

Shelley "ran into" Gloria after leaving the front steps of the building and running "across the street to the corner of the park".

By the time of his and Billy Lovelady's April 7 WC testimony, however, the encounter with Gloria has been mysteriously transplanted to the front steps themselves.

Shelley:

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

...

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Lovelady:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

It couldn't be clearer.

The two men don't run into Gloria out across the street, she now runs up to them and becomes the reason why they leave the steps.

Most bizarrely of all, as we have seen earlier in this thread, both Shelley and Lovelady are now timestamping their departure from the front steps to some 3 minutes after the shooting. Even Ball is taken aback by the extravagance of their over-estimation.

And it in turn yields the wildly implausible timestamp of between 3 and 4 minutes for their looking back from the 'island' and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building.

**

It's clear that somebody at some point--somebody other than the WC folk--prevailed upon Shelley and Lovelady to delay their departure from the front steps by several minutes.

But why?

I've already suggested two likely reasons:

1. The police were initially admitting that the Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter happened on the front steps just after the assassination. In order to make this story work, the timeline had to be stretched to minutes rather than seconds: Oswald was 'stopped' on his way out of the building some 3-4 minutes after the shooting. He had time to make his descent from the sixth floor.

2. Billy Lovelady needed to be kept on the steps for a little while to help explain away any Oswaldian images that might show up in photos or films of the TSBD front entrance in the immediate assassination aftermath.

**

We can I think reasonably offer a third reason why the authorities, in the very early part of the 'investigation', would have wanted to distort the Shelley-Lovelady timeline:

Oswald was still alive.

The prospect of his going to trial was still a real one.

And he, as defendant, was going to make a very damaging claim from the dock:

I was out front with Bill Shelley.

How, if Oswald was the sixth-floor shooter, could he have known where exactly Bill Shelley was at the time of the assassination?

How was the prosecution to explain away his description of Shelley (and others) on the steps?

The intended solution was to shift Oswald's sighting of Shelley to several minutes after the assassination.

The front-entrance Baker incident having been transplanted up to the second-floor lunchroom, Oswald would now be said to have spotted Shelley at the front entrance on his (Oswald's) way out of the building.

To this end, Shelley needed to be kept on the front steps just long enough for this story to be plausible.

Three minutes would do it.

**

Shelley's name is not mentioned in the joint Bookhout-Hosty interrogation report, written while Oswald is still alive.

It does however make it into Bookhout's solo report, written after Oswald has been murdered:

"out with Bill Shelley in front" is glossed as a post-lunchroom incident event:

He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building.

All that now remains is for Shelley to be asked whether this had ever happened--and for Shelley to answer with an honest 'no'.

**

Thus the quadruple switcheroo:

i) Oswald, in the domino room, sees Jarman & Norman come in the back door of the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed to have eaten his lunch with Jarman & Norman

ii) Oswald claims to have gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke shortly before the assassination BECOMES Oswald claimed to have gone up for the coke just after the assassination

iii) Oswald claims to have been eating his lunch and/or drinking the coke out front when the officer came in to the first floor BECOMES Oswald claimed the officer came into the second-floor lunchroom just after he had bought his coke

iv) Oswald names Bill Shelley as one of the people he was out front with at the time of the assassination BECOMES Oswald named Bill Shelley as someone he spoke with out front several minutes after the assassination.

That lying b*stard, Oswald.

We have him (literally) dead to rights.

As you discussed Sean, Shelley and Lovelady waiting for 3 minutes on the steps before leaving is a No Go. S and L are gone before Baker gets to the steps. Pauline Sanders said it took Baker 10 seconds to get there after the last shot. Baker and the WC are within a few seconds of Sanders estimate. We also have Couch and Darnell.

My best estimate for the Calvary/Shelley/Lovelady encounter is within a minute of the last shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if Truly has been identified out in front of TSBD, but here are my suggestions in a frame from Wiegman and a frame from Darnell. In the Darnell film, 'Truly' is seen spinning around after Baker has run past him.

attachicon.gifPDVD_671_TrulyCampbell_ed.jpg

attachicon.gifDarnellBakerTrulyl.jpg

Bjørn Gjerde

Bjørn,

Not sure if anyone else has picked out these three together in Weigman, but your ID looks solid to me.

Here are snippets of Campbell's testimony with my Boldface added:

" ... Mr . Truly and I decided to view the motorcade

and took up a position next to the curb on Elm street

adjacent to the street signal light . I recall that. at the

time of the assassination of President John F . Kennedy, Texas

School Book Depository employees, Firs . Bonnie Richey, Mrs .

Carolyn Arnold and Mrs . Jeraldean Reid were standing at nay

elbow and likewise witnessed the assassination ."

Also Campbell's description as given to James Leavelle on 2/17/1964:

"I had forgotten about the parade. I startd to lunch with Mr. Truly.

When we got downstairs Mr. Truly asked if I wanted to wait and see the parade. We waited on the front steps until the parade turned off Main Street on to Houston Street. We then walked across Elm Street and stood on the curb near the parade as it turned from Houston Street down under the underpass. ..."

So you have solid corroboration from Campbell.

Jeraldean Reid told Mr. Belin she was wearing a jacket and scarf, and that she stood next to Truly and Campbell. That also corroborates your ID.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page274.php

Do you see any woman in Darnell that matches Reid in your Wiegman frame?
Edited by Richard Hocking
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...