Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[William Kelly]

Whether it happened or not, the second floor encounter was a narrative written for the Warren Commission by military historian Alfred Goldberg - that's a fact Jack.

And thanks to Jean Davison, as pointed out by David Von Pein in his thread on the origin of Oswald's coke, it was Goldberg, who called the FBI on September 23, 1964, and asked them to get further statements from both Baker and Truly regarding the Second Floor lunchroom encounter. Of all the sentences and paragraphs in the already written and published Warren Report, it is the part about the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter that bothers Goldberg. Bothers him enough to make him pinch the FBI and get them to put this on the record one more time - and you can read it in the FBI agent's own handwriting - he doesn't want to be doing this, and neither does Baker, but they run through the hoops one last time.

Since then, Howard Roffman, in his book Presumed Guilty - also points to the second floor lunchroom encounter as exonerating Oswald and .

Since 80% of the people don't believe Oswald killed JFK alone, and many site the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter as a reason, it has been effective in helping to exonerate Oswald.

And I thought "Prayer Man" was Buell Wesley Frazer until Gary Mack said he showed the photo of "Prayer Man" to Frazer and he couldn't identify himself standing on the top step.

Whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or not, he most certainly was somewhere on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination, and entered the second floor lunchroom via the office door and was seen by Baker as he walked past the closed lunchroom door that Oswald didn't go through.

So Oswald could be "Prayer Man" and still have the Second Floor lunchroom encounter. One doesn't exclude the other.

And though when asked, Sean said he thought the whole second floor lunchroom fiction was concocted by the FBI, I don't think so. They are following Goldberg's orders, so whether it happened or is fiction, the narrative of the story as published in the Warren Report was written by Goldberg, who is a living witness and can still be questioned about all this.

Edited September 26, 2013 by William Kelly

[Sean Murphy]

HE NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THAT WINDOW AND DIDN'T KNOW BAKER WAS THERE UNTIL BAKER WALKED OVER AND OPENED THE CLOSED DOOR AND POINTED HIS GUN AT OSWALD'S BELLY. BESIDES PROVIDING PROOF - AT LEAST FOR ME - THAT OSWALD DIDN'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR - BAKER AND TRULY'S DESCRIPTION OF OSWALD'S DEMEANOR - COOL, CALM AND COLLECTED - ALSO INDICATE HE DIDN'T JUST BLOW SOMEBODY'S HEAD OPEN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES EARLIER - AS ANYONE WHO HAS KILLED SOMEONE AND RAN DOWN FOUR FLIGHTS OF STEPS WOULD BY HYPER, HEART PUMPING, BREATHING HEAVY, SWEATING, ETC. THE SECOND FLOOR ENCOUNTER EXONERATES OSWALD AS A SUSPECT, AS TRULY RECOGNIZED, AND GAVE OSWALD A PASS.

Proof - at least for me... X indicates not-Y...

Sorry, Bill, but this is thin gruel.

At best your argument establishes that Truly & Baker's testimony is strongly indicative that Oswald was coming from the corridor to Baker's right.

But it doesn't prove that scenario to the exclusion of all others.

It doesn't disprove the scenario I laid out, for instance.

It leaves Baker's first glimpse of Oswald ambiguous.

The thing can be--and has been--argued both ways.

And Roy Truly recognised that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing.

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

[William Kelly]

HE NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THAT WINDOW AND DIDN'T KNOW BAKER WAS THERE UNTIL BAKER WALKED OVER AND OPENED THE CLOSED DOOR AND POINTED HIS GUN AT OSWALD'S BELLY. BESIDES PROVIDING PROOF - AT LEAST FOR ME - THAT OSWALD DIDN'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR - BAKER AND TRULY'S DESCRIPTION OF OSWALD'S DEMEANOR - COOL, CALM AND COLLECTED - ALSO INDICATE HE DIDN'T JUST BLOW SOMEBODY'S HEAD OPEN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES EARLIER - AS ANYONE WHO HAS KILLED SOMEONE AND RAN DOWN FOUR FLIGHTS OF STEPS WOULD BY HYPER, HEART PUMPING, BREATHING HEAVY, SWEATING, ETC. THE SECOND FLOOR ENCOUNTER EXONERATES OSWALD AS A SUSPECT, AS TRULY RECOGNIZED, AND GAVE OSWALD A PASS.

Proof - at least for me... X indicates not-Y...

Sorry, Bill, but this is thin gruel.

At best your argument establishes that Truly & Baker's testimony is strongly indicative that Oswald was coming from the corridor to Baker's right.

But it doesn't prove that scenario to the exclusion of all others.

It doesn't disprove the scenario I laid out, for instance.

It leaves Baker's first glimpse of Oswald ambiguous.

The thing can be--and has been--argued both ways.

And Roy Truly recognised that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing.

Sean : "And Roy Truly recognized that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing."

Sean, when Baker opened the lunchroom door, pointed his pistol at Oswald he asked him "are you an employee?"

Truly then shows up behind Baker, hears the question, looks a Oswald, and later says that Oswald appeared perplexed but it is Truly who answers the question, "he works for me," and that was good enough for Baker - Oswald, because of his position in the lunchroom on the second floor, and his demeanor, was not considered a suspect by either man.

Why Truly would suddenly consider Oswald a suspect for being missing a few minutes later is a question that has yet to be answered.

And Truly testified he didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the closed door window until sometime after 11/22/63, but he certainly knew the significance of him not seeing Oswald walk through the door as he should have if Oswald went through the door, and David Belin asked, "What, weren't you paying attention?" or as other Warren Report appologists have suggested, perhaps he was looking at his feet. But the fact remains that when Truly opened that door at the top of the steps, he should have seen Oswald go through the lunchroom door if he in fact did so. And he didn't.

And Sean, I'm really disappointed you won't go over and read the Oswald's Coke thread where Jean Davison and DVP document the origin of the September 23rd Statements Alfred Goldberg had the FBI obtain from Baker and Truly. You say your're not interested in the origin of the document that you keep referring to or the name of the guy who wrote the Second Floor narrative you say didn't happen?

I think we should call him and ask him about it.

BK

Edited September 26, 2013 by William Kelly

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Bill

“Whether it happened or not, the second floor encounter was a narrative written for the Warren Commission by military historian Alfred Goldberg - that's a fact Jack. “

• This could very well be true and its food for thought but one question springs to mind. When was the first report of the lunchroom story aired?

“Since 80% of the people don't believe Oswald killed JFK alone, and many site the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter as a reason, it has been effective in helping to exonerate Oswald.“

• Even though I believe the Grassy Knoll to be the reason many people believe there was a conspiracy I cannot fathom for the life of me why you would say it (the ‘second’ floor lunchroom encounter) is “effective in helping to exonerate Oswald”? Nothing has been effective in exonerating Oswald because he is not exonerated? The second floor lunchroom encounter merely places Oswald closer to the sixth floor, its basic math and no doubt if there was a lunchroom on the third floor they may have even gone for that one. Oh wait; didn’t Baker mention the third and fourth floors already?

“And I thought "Prayer Man" was Buell Wesley Frazer until Gary Mack said he showed the photo of "Prayer Man" to Frazer and he couldn't identify himself standing on the top step.”

• Maybe Gary should have shown the picture Sean (and others) have included in this thread that clearly seems to show Frazier on the steps. If Frazier cannot even recognise himself in a picture how can he be so certain that the curtain rod bag was only about 24”?

“Whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or not, he most certainly was somewhere on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination, and entered the second floor lunchroom via the office door and was seen by Baker as he walked past the closed lunchroom door that Oswald didn't go through.”

• Bill although many would disagree with you that “he most certainly was somewhere on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination” the second floor lunchroom encounter is by no means certain. If Oswald is Prayer Man then the second floor lunchroom encounter is hastily starting to look a little like Don King’s “slim”.

“And though when asked, Sean said he thought the whole second floor lunchroom fiction was concocted by the FBI, I don't think so. They are following Goldberg's orders, so whether it happened or is fiction, the narrative of the story as published in the Warren Report was written by Goldberg, who is a living witness and can still be questioned about all this. “

• Once again if they are following his orders then how far back or should I say how soon after the assassination was Goldberg pulling the strings (in your opinion of course)?

Bill I respect you and I like reading what you say, but it’s starting to seem like you have difficulty (like so many others) of embracing potentially new possibilities that do not support or lay within the parameters of your own personal views. This is probably the reason why the JFK case appears to have been at a gridlock for so many years and it is also likely the reason that barring some extraordinary new dense piece of evidence that through its own weight can break down the barricades of stubbornness, it is likely to stay that way until all the LN’s and CT’s have joined that big forum in the sky.

Regards - Steve

[Thomas Graves]

HE NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THAT WINDOW AND DIDN'T KNOW BAKER WAS THERE UNTIL BAKER WALKED OVER AND OPENED THE CLOSED DOOR AND POINTED HIS GUN AT OSWALD'S BELLY. BESIDES PROVIDING PROOF - AT LEAST FOR ME - THAT OSWALD DIDN'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR - BAKER AND TRULY'S DESCRIPTION OF OSWALD'S DEMEANOR - COOL, CALM AND COLLECTED - ALSO INDICATE HE DIDN'T JUST BLOW SOMEBODY'S HEAD OPEN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES EARLIER - AS ANYONE WHO HAS KILLED SOMEONE AND RAN DOWN FOUR FLIGHTS OF STEPS WOULD BY HYPER, HEART PUMPING, BREATHING HEAVY, SWEATING, ETC. THE SECOND FLOOR ENCOUNTER EXONERATES OSWALD AS A SUSPECT, AS TRULY RECOGNIZED, AND GAVE OSWALD A PASS.

Proof - at least for me... X indicates not-Y...

Sorry, Bill, but this is thin gruel.

At best your argument establishes that Truly & Baker's testimony is strongly indicative that Oswald was coming from the corridor to Baker's right.

But it doesn't prove that scenario to the exclusion of all others.

It doesn't disprove the scenario I laid out, for instance.

It leaves Baker's first glimpse of Oswald ambiguous.

The thing can be--and has been--argued both ways.

And Roy Truly recognised that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing.

[...]

But the fact remains that when Truly opened that door at the top of the steps, he should have seen Oswald go through the lunchroom door if he in fact did so. And he didn't.

[...]

Bill,

How do you know that the door at the top of the steps was closed?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited September 26, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Whether Oswald had descended from the 6th floor and entered the lunch room vestibule via the door from the NW stairwell, or ascended from the 1st floor and entered the same lunch room vestibule via the other door from the 2nd floor offices, there is something that still bothers me. From inside the vestibule, there is a third door Oswald had to pass through to actually be in the lunch room.

We know from Baker's WC testimony that Baker claims to have spotted Oswald just inside the first door, leading from the NW stairwell to the vestibule. Baker immediately went to that door, across a space of only twenty feet, and then saw Oswald had magically teleported to INSIDE the lunch room.

Assuming the actual lunch room door was closed, how did Oswald get through this door and into the lunch room, covering approximately the same distance as Baker from the stairwell to the vestibule door, WITHOUT having Baker see him open and close the lunch room door? Baker's WC testimony is quite obscure on this point, and the WC lawyer makes no point in pursuing the issue.

Heck, even if the lunchroom door was open, how did Oswald close this door and get twenty feet into the lunch room without Baker seeing the door close? Remember, Baker's view of the lunch room door would improve dramatically with every step he took from the stairwell.

[Richard Hocking]

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

Steve,

you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied.

• At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced.

• You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room.

• Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me?

Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Sean Murphy]

Whether Oswald had descended from the 6th floor and entered the lunch room vestibule via the door from the NW stairwell, or ascended from the 1st floor and entered the same lunch room vestibule via the other door from the 2nd floor offices, there is something that still bothers me. From inside the vestibule, there is a third door Oswald had to pass through to actually be in the lunch room.

We know from Baker's WC testimony that Baker claims to have spotted Oswald just inside the first door, leading from the NW stairwell to the vestibule. Baker immediately went to that door, across a space of only twenty feet, and then saw Oswald had magically teleported to INSIDE the lunch room.

Assuming the actual lunch room door was closed, how did Oswald get through this door and into the lunch room, covering approximately the same distance as Baker from the stairwell to the vestibule door, WITHOUT having Baker see him open and close the lunch room door? Baker's WC testimony is quite obscure on this point, and the WC lawyer makes no point in pursuing the issue.

Heck, even if the lunchroom door was open, how did Oswald close this door and get twenty feet into the lunch room without Baker seeing the door close? Remember, Baker's view of the lunch room door would improve dramatically with every step he took from the stairwell.

Robert, the door to the lunchroom is something of a non-issue IMO (it was probably just routinely left open) but the issue of distance which you raise is one whose importance cannot be overstated. Rest assured that I will be addressing it when I get to the ludicrous finalised story that Baker told to the WC.

[Sean Murphy]

HE NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THAT WINDOW AND DIDN'T KNOW BAKER WAS THERE UNTIL BAKER WALKED OVER AND OPENED THE CLOSED DOOR AND POINTED HIS GUN AT OSWALD'S BELLY. BESIDES PROVIDING PROOF - AT LEAST FOR ME - THAT OSWALD DIDN'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR - BAKER AND TRULY'S DESCRIPTION OF OSWALD'S DEMEANOR - COOL, CALM AND COLLECTED - ALSO INDICATE HE DIDN'T JUST BLOW SOMEBODY'S HEAD OPEN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES EARLIER - AS ANYONE WHO HAS KILLED SOMEONE AND RAN DOWN FOUR FLIGHTS OF STEPS WOULD BY HYPER, HEART PUMPING, BREATHING HEAVY, SWEATING, ETC. THE SECOND FLOOR ENCOUNTER EXONERATES OSWALD AS A SUSPECT, AS TRULY RECOGNIZED, AND GAVE OSWALD A PASS.

Proof - at least for me... X indicates not-Y...

Sorry, Bill, but this is thin gruel.

At best your argument establishes that Truly & Baker's testimony is strongly indicative that Oswald was coming from the corridor to Baker's right.

But it doesn't prove that scenario to the exclusion of all others.

It doesn't disprove the scenario I laid out, for instance.

It leaves Baker's first glimpse of Oswald ambiguous.

The thing can be--and has been--argued both ways.

And Roy Truly recognised that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing.

Sean : "And Roy Truly recognized that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing."

Sean, when Baker opened the lunchroom door, pointed his pistol at Oswald he asked him "are you an employee?"

Truly then shows up behind Baker, hears the question, looks a Oswald, and later says that Oswald appeared perplexed but it is Truly who answers the question, "he works for me," and that was good enough for Baker - Oswald, because of his position in the lunchroom on the second floor, and his demeanor, was not considered a suspect by either man.

Why Truly would suddenly consider Oswald a suspect for being missing a few minutes later is a question that has yet to be answered.

And Truly testified he didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the closed door window until sometime after 11/22/63, but he certainly knew the significance of him not seeing Oswald walk through the door as he should have if Oswald went through the door, and David Belin asked, "What, weren't you paying attention?" or as other Warren Report appologists have suggested, perhaps he was looking at his feet. But the fact remains that when Truly opened that door at the top of the steps, he should have seen Oswald go through the lunchroom door if he in fact did so. And he didn't.

And Sean, I'm really disappointed you won't go over and read the Oswald's Coke thread where Jean Davison and DVP document the origin of the September 23rd Statements Alfred Goldberg had the FBI obtain from Baker and Truly. You say your're not interested in the origin of the document that you keep referring to or the name of the guy who wrote the Second Floor narrative you say didn't happen?

I think we should call him and ask him about it.

BK

Bill, citing Goldberg as "the guy who wrote the Second Floor narrative" is just anachronistic. He's neither here nor there.

[William Kelly]

Whether Oswald had descended from the 6th floor and entered the lunch room vestibule via the door from the NW stairwell, or ascended from the 1st floor and entered the same lunch room vestibule via the other door from the 2nd floor offices, there is something that still bothers me. From inside the vestibule, there is a third door Oswald had to pass through to actually be in the lunch room.

We know from Baker's WC testimony that Baker claims to have spotted Oswald just inside the first door, leading from the NW stairwell to the vestibule. Baker immediately went to that door, across a space of only twenty feet, and then saw Oswald had magically teleported to INSIDE the lunch room.

Assuming the actual lunch room door was closed, how did Oswald get through this door and into the lunch room, covering approximately the same distance as Baker from the stairwell to the vestibule door, WITHOUT having Baker see him open and close the lunch room door? Baker's WC testimony is quite obscure on this point, and the WC lawyer makes no point in pursuing the issue.

Heck, even if the lunchroom door was open, how did Oswald close this door and get twenty feet into the lunch room without Baker seeing the door close? Remember, Baker's view of the lunch room door would improve dramatically with every step he took from the stairwell.

Robert, the door to the lunchroom is something of a non-issue IMO (it was probably just routinely left open) but the issue of distance which you raise is one whose importance cannot be overstated. Rest assured that I will be addressing it when I get to the ludicrous finalised story that Baker told to the WC.

Okay, someone above asks about the door at the top of the 2nd floor steps, which I think is the only door at the top of any of the back steps. We only know it is there from the Secret Service reenactment photos that shows an agent opening the door with hand on door nob.

From Truly's testimony, we know that after getting to the top of these steps Truly made the left turn and proceeded to 20 feet and made the left and proceeded up the steps to the third floor before he realized that Baker wasn't behind him. He then returned to the top of the stairs and then walked over to where Baker had entered the second door to the lunchroom, which actually was a door to the vestibule to the lunchroom - and if he looked to his right there was another closed door to the lunchroom vestibule - the one Oswald ostensibly entered in order to pass in front of the window through which Baker saw him.

In his testimony, Truly mentions that the actual door to the lunchroom which led from the vestibule to the lunchroom was generally always kept open.

Please refer to the 2nd floor lunchroom diagrams if you are unfamiliar with the layout of the 2nd floor. Some have been posted on this thread.

It would have been physically impossible for Truly not to see Oswald if he was going through the lunchroom door 20 feet in front of him when he got to the top of the second floor stairs, and for Oswald to be seen walking on the other side of the window when Baker saw him indicates that he had just entered that space through the other door to the lunchroom.

Oswald wasn't magically transported anywhere - he merely walked the ten feet from the door he entered to the center of the lunchroom.

BK

[William Kelly]

HE NEVER LOOKED THROUGH THAT WINDOW AND DIDN'T KNOW BAKER WAS THERE UNTIL BAKER WALKED OVER AND OPENED THE CLOSED DOOR AND POINTED HIS GUN AT OSWALD'S BELLY. BESIDES PROVIDING PROOF - AT LEAST FOR ME - THAT OSWALD DIDN'T GO THROUGH THAT DOOR - BAKER AND TRULY'S DESCRIPTION OF OSWALD'S DEMEANOR - COOL, CALM AND COLLECTED - ALSO INDICATE HE DIDN'T JUST BLOW SOMEBODY'S HEAD OPEN LESS THAN TWO MINUTES EARLIER - AS ANYONE WHO HAS KILLED SOMEONE AND RAN DOWN FOUR FLIGHTS OF STEPS WOULD BY HYPER, HEART PUMPING, BREATHING HEAVY, SWEATING, ETC. THE SECOND FLOOR ENCOUNTER EXONERATES OSWALD AS A SUSPECT, AS TRULY RECOGNIZED, AND GAVE OSWALD A PASS.

Proof - at least for me... X indicates not-Y...

Sorry, Bill, but this is thin gruel.

At best your argument establishes that Truly & Baker's testimony is strongly indicative that Oswald was coming from the corridor to Baker's right.

But it doesn't prove that scenario to the exclusion of all others.

It doesn't disprove the scenario I laid out, for instance.

It leaves Baker's first glimpse of Oswald ambiguous.

The thing can be--and has been--argued both ways.

And Roy Truly recognised that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing.

Sean : "And Roy Truly recognized that the incident exonerated Oswald?

He did no such thing."

Sean, when Baker opened the lunchroom door, pointed his pistol at Oswald he asked him "are you an employee?"

Truly then shows up behind Baker, hears the question, looks a Oswald, and later says that Oswald appeared perplexed but it is Truly who answers the question, "he works for me," and that was good enough for Baker - Oswald, because of his position in the lunchroom on the second floor, and his demeanor, was not considered a suspect by either man.

Why Truly would suddenly consider Oswald a suspect for being missing a few minutes later is a question that has yet to be answered.

And Truly testified he didn't know Baker saw Oswald through the closed door window until sometime after 11/22/63, but he certainly knew the significance of him not seeing Oswald walk through the door as he should have if Oswald went through the door, and David Belin asked, "What, weren't you paying attention?" or as other Warren Report appologists have suggested, perhaps he was looking at his feet. But the fact remains that when Truly opened that door at the top of the steps, he should have seen Oswald go through the lunchroom door if he in fact did so. And he didn't.

And Sean, I'm really disappointed you won't go over and read the Oswald's Coke thread where Jean Davison and DVP document the origin of the September 23rd Statements Alfred Goldberg had the FBI obtain from Baker and Truly. You say your're not interested in the origin of the document that you keep referring to or the name of the guy who wrote the Second Floor narrative you say didn't happen?

I think we should call him and ask him about it.

BK

Bill, citing Goldberg as "the guy who wrote the Second Floor narrative" is just anachronistic. He's neither here nor there.

Sean, why is it "anachronistic"? How can the man responsible for writing the Warren Report narrative, the guy who can call the FBI up at the last minute and order them to reinterview Baker and Truly to make sure they got the story right - the document you repeatedly quote - how can this guy be neither here nor there. He's the guy who wrote the Second Floor lunchroom encounter story - the one you say didn't happen and is pure fiction - how come you're not interested in this military historian who was assigned to the Warren Commission for the sole purpose of getting the story straight?

I think he's really important, and the fact that he's still living makes him even more significant. How come you don't have any questions for him?

And he's got a pal, a German named Winacker - or something like that, who is another ghost writer of the Warren Report narrative that you say is fiction.

I want to know more about these guys and find out what they did and learn why Goldberg had the FBI get the last minute statements from Baker and Truly.

BK

[William Kelly]

Hi Bill

“Whether it happened or not, the second floor encounter was a narrative written for the Warren Commission by military historian Alfred Goldberg - that's a fact Jack. “

• This could very well be true and its food for thought but one question springs to mind. When was the first report of the lunchroom story aired?

BK: THE FIRST REPORT OF THE LUNCHROOM STORY WAS WHEN BAKER PUT IT IN HIS FIRST STATEMENT - SITTING AT A DESK JUST OUTSIDE CAPT FRITZ'S OFFICE, WHEN HE COULD HEAR FRITZ SAY 'WHY DID YOU KILL THE PRESIDENT' AND OSWALD RESPOND 'THAT'S REDICULOUS.' SOMETIME LATE FRIDAY AFTERNOON.

“Since 80% of the people don't believe Oswald killed JFK alone, and many site the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter as a reason, it has been effective in helping to exonerate Oswald.“

• Even though I believe the Grassy Knoll to be the reason many people believe there was a conspiracy I cannot fathom for the life of me why you would say it (the ‘second’ floor lunchroom encounter) is “effective in helping to exonerate Oswald”? Nothing has been effective in exonerating Oswald because he is not exonerated? The second floor lunchroom encounter merely places Oswald closer to the sixth floor, its basic math and no doubt if there was a lunchroom on the third floor they may have even gone for that one. Oh wait; didn’t Baker mention the third and fourth floors already?

BK: STEVE, WHILE MORE PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE Z-FILM, THOSE SERIOUSLY INTERESTED IN THE ASSASSINATION HAVE READ HOWARD ROFFMAN'S BOOK "PRESUMED GUILTY" WHICH GOES INTO THIS IN DETAIL.

“And I thought "Prayer Man" was Buell Wesley Frazer until Gary Mack said he showed the photo of "Prayer Man" to Frazer and he couldn't identify himself standing on the top step.”

• Maybe Gary should have shown the picture Sean (and others) have included in this thread that clearly seems to show Frazier on the steps. If Frazier cannot even recognise himself in a picture how can he be so certain that the curtain rod bag was only about 24”?

BK: MAYBE BECAUSE IT ISN'T HIM.

“Whether Oswald is "Prayer Man" or not, he most certainly was somewhere on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination, and entered the second floor lunchroom via the office door and was seen by Baker as he walked past the closed lunchroom door that Oswald didn't go through.”

• Bill although many would disagree with you that “he most certainly was somewhere on the first or second floor at the time of the assassination” the second floor lunchroom encounter is by no means certain. If Oswald is Prayer Man then the second floor lunchroom encounter is hastily starting to look a little like Don King’s “slim”.

BK: WELL, OSWALD SAID HE WAS ON THE FIRST FLOOR AND SEAN HAS HIM ON THE FIRST FLOOR LANDING, AND TWO OR THREE OTHER WITNESS LAST SAW HIM ON THE FIRST FLOOR, ONLY THOSE WHO THINK HIM THE SIXTH FLOOR SNIPER KNOW WHERE HE IS FOR SURE.

“And though when asked, Sean said he thought the whole second floor lunchroom fiction was concocted by the FBI, I don't think so. They are following Goldberg's orders, so whether it happened or is fiction, the narrative of the story as published in the Warren Report was written by Goldberg, who is a living witness and can still be questioned about all this. “

• Once again if they are following his orders then how far back or should I say how soon after the assassination was Goldberg pulling the strings (in your opinion of course)?

BK: GOLDBERG IS CERTAINLY PULLING THE STRINGS ON SEPTEMBER 23, WHEN HE HAS THE FBI GET ADDITIONAL STATEMENTS FROM BAKER AND TRULY AND MAYBE RECOGNIZES THERE IS A PROBLEM

Bill I respect you and I like reading what you say, but it’s starting to seem like you have difficulty (like so many others) of embracing potentially new possibilities that do not support or lay within the parameters of your own personal views.

BK: I'M ONLY RESPONDING TO YOU BECAUSE I WANT TO SEE IF THERE IS ANY LITTLE THING IN THIS NICK AND CRANNY THAT ALTERS OUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT HAPPENED. I DO HAVE A PROBLEM EMBRACING POTENTIALLY NEW POSSIBILITIES THAT REJECT REALITY - SUCH AS THE SECOND FLOOR LUNCHROOM ENCOUNTER DIDN'T TAKE PLACE - BECAUSE OSWALD IS PRAYER MAN, WHEN OSWALD CAN BE PRAYER MAN AND THE SECOND FLOOR LUNCHROOM ENCOUNTER STILL TAKE PLACE AS DESCRIBED. MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS ARE OPEN TO PERSUASION AND I AWAIT YOU OR SEAN OR ANYONE TO PRESENT NEW AND POTENTIALLY GAME CHANGING INFORMATION THAT WILL ALTER NOT ONLY MY VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED BUT RESOLVE THE CASE TO A LEGAL AND MORAL CERTAINTY.

This is probably the reason why the JFK case appears to have been at a gridlock for so many years and it is also likely the reason that barring some extraordinary new dense piece of evidence that through its own weight can break down the barricades of stubbornness, it is likely to stay that way until all the LN’s and CT’s have joined that big forum in the sky.

Regards - Steve

STEVE, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU AND RICHARD AND A FEW OTHERS ARE OF THE OPINION THAT THE LATEST RESEARCH IS AT THE ED FORUM, AND WHILE THAT IS TRUE IN SOME CASES - IT IS VERY FAR FROM TRUE IN OTHERS - AS THERE WILL BE A NUMBER OF NEW BOOKS WITH NEW INFORMATION THAT COULD BE GAME CHANGERS - INCLUDING BILL SIMPICH'S NEW BOOK TO BE AVAILABLE ON LINE TOMORROW - FRIDAY - BILL TURNER'S NEW BOOK ON THE CIA IN CUBA, JOHN NEWMAN'S BOOK ON THE CIA AT JMWAVE, TONY SUMMERS UPDATE ON HIS BOOK "NOT IN YOUR LIFETIME" THAT I SUSPECT HAS A NEW INTERVIEW WITH THE MAN ON THE MOTORCYCLE IN MEXICO CITY, AND JOAN MELLEN'S THIRD BOOK OF HER TRILOGY ON THE TEXAS MAFIA, AND I'M SURE THERE WILL BE OTHERS.

THE ONLY THING THAT WILL BREAK DOWN THE BARRICADES OF STUBBORNESS IS TO COME UP WITH REAL EVIDENCE - EVIDENCE AND NEW WITNESSES THAT CAN BE INTRODUCED IN TO COURT AT A GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS - AND THAT WILL GO BEYOND ANY SILLY INTERNET ARGUMENT BY LONE NUTTERS AND CONSPIRACY THEORISTS.

[Thomas Graves]

Whether Oswald had descended from the 6th floor and entered the lunch room vestibule via the door from the NW stairwell, or ascended from the 1st floor and entered the same lunch room vestibule via the other door from the 2nd floor offices, there is something that still bothers me. From inside the vestibule, there is a third door Oswald had to pass through to actually be in the lunch room.

We know from Baker's WC testimony that Baker claims to have spotted Oswald just inside the first door, leading from the NW stairwell to the vestibule. Baker immediately went to that door, across a space of only twenty feet, and then saw Oswald had magically teleported to INSIDE the lunch room.

Assuming the actual lunch room door was closed, how did Oswald get through this door and into the lunch room, covering approximately the same distance as Baker from the stairwell to the vestibule door, WITHOUT having Baker see him open and close the lunch room door? Baker's WC testimony is quite obscure on this point, and the WC lawyer makes no point in pursuing the issue.

Heck, even if the lunchroom door was open, how did Oswald close this door and get twenty feet into the lunch room without Baker seeing the door close? Remember, Baker's view of the lunch room door would improve dramatically with every step he took from the stairwell.

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

Robert,

I guess you're asking how was it that Oswald could have closed the windowed vestibule door behind him without Baker's noticing that. Well, Baker did say in his WC testimony that that door might have been in the act of closing and nearly closed when he first noticed Oswald through its window. I think he's trying to say that he's not sure but that he thinks he remembers seeing it close the final inch or so.

Mr. Baker. I ran on up here and opened this door and when I got this door opened I could see him walking on down.

Mr. Dulles. Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?

Mr. Baker. I can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing by "this door" to the door on Exhibit 498?

Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dulles. You mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost?

Mr. Baker. Well, to me it was the back of it. Now, through this window you can't see too much but I just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as I ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about 20 feet so he was moving about as fast as I was.

[emphasis added]

Exhibit 498 is, of course, a photograph of the vestibule's outer, windowed door; the door through which Baker claimed he noticed Oswald.

The more I look at it, the more confusing I find the whole exchange between Dulles and Baker. Confusing for one thing because I don't understand why Baker says that after he got the door open he could see Oswald "walking on down." One would assume that he's talking about getting the windowed vestibule door open, but if so, why couldn't he have seen Oswald "walking on down" by pressing his face up to the big window in the door rather than having to open it to see what Oswald was doing? Also, Dulles' use of the word "meanwhile" suggests that he's asking about the non-windowed door from the vestibule to the lunchroom, but the way Baker answers the question suggests he thinks Dulles is asking about the windowed vestibule door, which I think was actually the case, I just wish Dulles had said, "Was Oswald going through the (windowed) door when you noticed him" instead of, "Had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you?"

One thing I am pretty sure of is that when Baker said, "Well, to me it was the back of it", he meant that he thought that he might have seen the "tail end" of the door-closing process (the "back of it") when he first noticed Oswald through the windowed vestibule door.

--Tommy

Edited September 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Baker claimed he was at the head of the stairs on the 2nd floor when he spotted Oswald through the window of the door opening into the vestibule. If the door had been "you know, closing and almost shut at that time" the first oddity is that Truly, well ahead of Baker, did not see a half shut door in the process of closing, or Lee Harvey Oswald going through the vestibule door prior to it automatically closing, as the vestibule is so small, LHO could not have been in there for more than a couple of seconds.

The second oddity is that a person standing at the head of the stairs, as Baker claimed to be when he got a glimpse of LHO, cannot see the lunch room door by looking through the window on the upper part of the vestibule door. The lunch room door would be to the left of his line of sight when viewed from the head of the stairs. However, if Baker took a couple of steps toward the vestibule door, his view of the lunch room door, be it open or closed, improves dramatically, allowing him to see LHO standing twenty feet into the lunchroom.

The question is not how LHO managed to get twenty feet into the lunch room, be it through an open or closed lunch room door, the question is how did LHO manage to CLOSE the lunch room door and THEN proceed twenty feet into the lunch room, without being seen closing the door OR dashing into the lunch room by Baker?

Remember, Baker has seen movement in the vestibule, is focused on that spot and is quickly closing in on it. He only has to cover a fraction of the distance LHO covers before he has a wide open view of the lunch room door and LHO. Why did he not see LHO closing the door and walking twenty feet into the lunch room?