Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Ken Davies]

Forrest Gump!

[Chris Newton]

Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin..

Almost spilled the beans there Mr. Truly?

--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--

Is this the the "oh, crap - gotta stick to the story" moment?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Would Truly and Lumpkin have been embarrassed if Oswald had wandered down from the 5th floor with a book order he had been working on? They didn't exactly track his whereabouts after seeing him on the 2nd floor.

[Thomas Graves]

Would Truly and Lumpkin have been embarrassed if Oswald had wandered down from the 5th floor with a book order he had been working on? They didn't exactly track his whereabouts after seeing him on the 2nd floor.

Good point, Robert, I wonder if anyone went back up to the second floor lunchroom to see if Oswald was still "there."

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

Or the 3rd, 4th or 5th floors.

[Chris Newton]

Robert & Tommy,

By Oswald's own admission he walked out the front door and as he was leaving he directed someone (whom he thought ID'ed themselves as SS) to the phones.

That that person (or persons) had just walked in or was already in the lobby isn't clear. What is clear is that he left before the building was secure. How does that fit with the timeline of Truly miraculously picking Oswald (with Lumpkin's assistance maybe) out of the proverbial hat and reporting it to the Chief.

[Ian Kingsbury]

There is also the possibility the Sixth Floor sniper was a cop, as that would explain why he was in no hurry to leave and that the plan was to just blend in with those searching the building after it was sealed.

Hey Bill, just a theory but considering witness testimony of there being two men seen in the windows, and the reports of the "fake" SS agents in and around the building and the two unidentified "plain clothes" coming down the stairs. I'm thinking it was a classic sniper team. Shooter and Spotter. The Shooter hides the weapon and the spotter rearranges the boxes to resemble a fighting position and frame "the patsy". This gives them time to complete both actions and then head down the stairs. They split up, one goes out the back and one goes out the front. If they encounter anyone they can show their ID and blend in and walk away. Would you be suspicious if a you encountered a stranger and they flashed a badge and asked for a phone? Brilliant.

Chris

This is similar in nature to Dougherty's "FBI " man , and only the timing

And the oddness of Dougherty's testimony as to when it occured.

Also if Baker sticks to his first day affadavit and the brown jacket guy was there

This could be connected to Denhams discovery of a man "acting suspiciously"

On the 3rd floor, as reported by Trantham in his HSCA report.

[Sean Murphy]

I think the conundrum as to why Truly reported Oswald so soon after having seen him at the TSBD can be resolved:

• He encountered this man--Oswald/Prayer Man--at the front entrance as he and the officer were racing into the building.
• He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance.
• Oswald's apparent quick exit, coming so immediately after the shots, struck Truly as strange in retrospect
• So he reported the matter to Lumpkin/Fritz.
• The crucial point: he was not remotely suggesting that Oswald might have been the shooter or anything, just that his quick exit and subsequent disappearance might have betokened involvement in some way.

The above also explains the reports given by the police to news reporters that evening: Oswald was seen leaving the building.

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Chris Newton]

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression

Or it was Lumpkin who asked Truly "Hey where's Oswald?" because Lumpkin was going to finger him anyway and that Oswald had left just made his task more convincing.

If you look at the big picture and realize Lumpkin's Army Reserve C.O. was Jack Crichton, former WW2 European OSS Officer, who had a hand in planning the motorcade route then it becomes clear that Lumpkin might have been told ahead of time to finger Oswald. Asst. Chief Lumpkin was also in charge of all the pictures and video collected by the DPD in the investigation. What happened to "Babushka Lady's" film? Ask Lumpkin. Backyard Photos? Lumpkin.

That Crichton wouldn't know Allen Dulles and Angleton is a stretch. He was in the same theater as they were and the OSS was a very close "family". So for those looking in that direction for a conspiracy, the shoe fits.

[Thomas Graves]

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression

Or it was Lumpkin who asked Truly "Hey where's Oswald?" because Lumpkin was going to finger him anyway and that Oswald had left just made his task more convincing.

If you look at the big picture and realize Lumpkin's Army Reserve C.O. was Jack Crichton, former WW2 European OSS Officer, who had a hand in planning the motorcade route then it becomes clear that Lumpkin might have been told ahead of time to finger Oswald. Asst. Chief Lumpkin was also in charge of all the pictures and video collected by the DPD in the investigation. What happened to "Babushka Lady's" film? Ask Lumpkin. Backyard Photos? Lumpkin.

That Crichton wouldn't know Allen Dulles and Angleton is a stretch. He was in the same theater as they were and the OSS was a very close "family". So for those looking in that direction for a conspiracy, the shoe fits.

Chris,

I guess that makes more sense than Truly's not noticing (or noticing) that Oswald was missing 15 to 20 minutes after the assassination and then asking Bill Shelley if he'd seen him around.

When Shelley said "no," why didn't Truly have someone go back upstairs, particularly to the second floor lunchroom, and look for Oswald?

Had workaholic Jack Dougherty already been accounted for, or was he still upstairs like Oswald, as far as Truly knew, could have been?

Had all the TSBD floors been "swept" by that time?

--Tommy

Edited October 15, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

I think Chris might have put his finger on it. Lumpkin and Crichton. Makes sense.

[Chris Newton]

So if we take this a step further back:

Mrs. Paine puts Oswald in the TSBD in the second week of October (he applies for the job 50 years ago today). To those that suggest that Mrs. Paine, the ordinary housewife, just wanted to learn russian and so, for entirely altruistic reasons, put up the wife and kids of CIA asset Oswald - this makes my head explode.

*** Note Mrs. Paines' father is former USIA. Mrs. Paine has since been fingered by people unrelated to this event, in her later life, as CIA. A personal anecdote: My grandfather was in the COI, then the OSS, then OWI with an Army cover, then USIA and the State Department. He was ostensibly described as a counter-insurgency expert although all those agencies (listed after the OSS) are primarily involved in "white propaganda". If you're interested in where USIA came from: http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/306.html

Angleton/Dulles connection? Yes/No (I put a big circle around Yes - and, yes, my grandfather knew both those men too)

Then we have the Lumpkin / Crichton / Whitmeyer / Powell crew:

• Involved in motorcade planning (Crichton)
  
• Ordered extra security of 488th to stand down (Whitmeyer/Crichton)
  
• Drove lead car in motorcade (ensuring route was taken?) (Lumpkin/Whitmeyer)
  
• Maybe fingered Oswald (Lumpkin)
  
• Just happens to be in the right spot at the right time and only releases one of the pictures he took (Powell)
  
• Controls DPD photographic evidence (Lumpkin)
  

Angleton/Dulles connection? Yes/No (I put a big circle around Yes)

Edited October 15, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

[Sean Murphy]

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.

[Richard Hocking]

There is also the possibility the Sixth Floor sniper was a cop, as that would explain why he was in no hurry to leave and that the plan was to just blend in with those searching the building after it was sealed.

Hey Bill, just a theory but considering witness testimony of there being two men seen in the windows, and the reports of the "fake" SS agents in and around the building and the two unidentified "plain clothes" coming down the stairs. I'm thinking it was a classic sniper team. Shooter and Spotter. The Shooter hides the weapon and the spotter rearranges the boxes to resemble a fighting position and frame "the patsy". This gives them time to complete both actions and then head down the stairs. They split up, one goes out the back and one goes out the front. If they encounter anyone they can show their ID and blend in and walk away. Would you be suspicious if a you encountered a stranger and they flashed a badge and asked for a phone? Brilliant.

There is some detailed information about Secret Service sightings in Dealey Plaza and other locations in Dallas on 11/22/63 in a post by Steve Thomas.

Secret Service: On the Knoll and Beyond

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12084