Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

[...]

The guy on the right [in John Martin's film of the people standing on the TSBD steps, apparently waiting to get back into the building] is not Lovelady.

You forgot to add "IMO"

IMO, it is.

Ray,

Unfortunately, Sandy doesn't seem to appreciate the fact that Lovelady was smoking while waiting to get back into the TSBD, and that amateur photographer John Martin filmed him slowly exhaling smoke through his mouth, and that this action caused Lovelady to jut his jaw out and grossly distort his face.

LOL as if smoking could produce all the differences an impartial person (like myself) can see. (I count myself impartial because I'd rather the guy be Oswald, but am willing to accept the opposite when the evidence dictates so.)

You and Ray crack me up. You so much want that guy to be Lovelady that you don't believe your own two eyes and will make all kinds of excuses for the differences in looks.

If Sandy were to look at the two sets of horizontal white over black / black over white stripes near Lovelady's left armpit, and compare them with the same stripes in these two photos, he would realize that it's the same shirt, and that Cinque - Fetzer's "Neanderthal Man" and "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair" are indeed Billy Lovelady.

I never said the shirts are different.

-- Tommy

And the bald spot. Let's not forget the bald spot! Which you can just barely see the edge of in the FBI photo on the left, but which is plainly visible in the Martin / Hughes "Neanderthal Man" footage, as well as the Charles Buck "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair" WFAA-TV footage (only snippets of which are viewable on this Forum).

LOL, as if classic male pattern baldness is a unique trait. Speaking of which, even their hairlines are different.

Regarding the Charles Buck film, please see: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19115

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

The guy on the right [in John Martin's film of the people standing on the TSBD steps, apparently waiting to get back into the building] is not Lovelady.

You forgot to add "IMO"

IMO, it is.

Ray,

Unfortunately, Sandy doesn't seem to appreciate the fact that Lovelady was smoking while waiting to get back into the TSBD, and that amateur photographer John Martin filmed him slowly exhaling smoke through his mouth, and that this action caused Lovelady to jut his jaw out and grossly distort his face.

LOL as if smoking could produce all the differences an impartial person (like myself) can see. (I count myself impartial because I'd rather the guy be Oswald, but am willing to accept the opposite when the evidence dictates so.)

You and Ray crack me up. You so much want that guy to be Lovelady that you don't believe your own two eyes and will make all kinds of excuses for the differences in looks.

If Sandy were to look at the two sets of horizontal white over black / black over white stripes near Lovelady's left armpit, and compare them with the same stripes in these two photos, he would realize that it's the same shirt, and that Cinque - Fetzer's "Neanderthal Man" and "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair" are indeed Billy Lovelady.

I never said the shirts are different.

-- Tommy

And the bald spot. Let's not forget the bald spot! Which you can just barely see the edge of in the FBI photo on the left, but which is plainly visible in the Martin / Hughes "Neanderthal Man" footage, as well as the Charles Buck "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair" WFAA-TV footage (only snippets of which are viewable on this Forum).

LOL, as if classic male pattern baldness is a unique trait. Speaking of which, even their hairlines are different.

Regarding the Charles Buck film, please see: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19115

Dear Sandy,

It's not "Neanderthal Man's" smoking per se, but his slow exhaling of the smoke through his mouth, and the exaggerated jutting forward of his chin while doing so, that "does the trick," i.e., distorts his face.

Your saying, "I never said the shirts are different" suggests that you agree they are the same.

You also seem to agree that "vertically-striped" Lovelady had a bald spot at the top-rear of his head. Good, I'm glad you can see that.

As regards his hairline: Different camera angle + recent haircut + different lighting = "different hairline."

Have you looked at Cinque - Fetzer's "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair" (see below) recently? Please note that "Dwarf Man" has the same face and the same shirt as "Groden's Lovelady," the same bald spot as the FBI's "Vertically-Striped Lovelady" (gotta watch the whole short Charles Buck clip of "Dwarf Man" for that one), and, guess what? A pack of Neanderthal Man cigarettes in his shirt pocket!

Taking all those things into consideration, any open-minded student of the assassination, even a relative "newbie" like you, would agree that Cinque - Fetzer's "Dwarf Man" is ..... Billy Lovelady.

That's why I said in an earlier post that you should take a closer look at "Dwarf Man Sitting In A Chair." Your eventual noticing the similarities between he, "Neanderthal Man," and your "Real Deal" Lovelady (wearing either his vertically-striped shirt for the FBI or his plaid shirt for Groden) should convince you that all three are really just one person -- Lovelady.

Same face + Same shirt + Same bald spot (viewable in other frames of the same 11/22/63 film) = Same Person.

-- Tommy

Edited October 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Same face + Same shirt + Same bald spot (viewable in other frames of the same 11/22/63 film) = Same Person.

-- Tommy

But Tommy, Neanderthal man doesn't have the same face as the other Loveladys. He doesn't look at all like Lovelady, even if I ignore the part of the face that can be distorted by smoking a cigarette.. I'll grant that lighting, haircut, etc., etc. can make a person look different. But the dead giveaway is the width of the ear. The ears don't match and there is no way to explain it away.

As for the shirt, the one that the real Lovelady owns appears to be slightly different than the others. It's like somebody spent a great deal of time and expense trying to make a plaid shirt that looks exactly like Neanderthal's shirt, but failed to realize that different fabric types lay differently. The shirt that Neanderthal Man and Dwarf Man are wearing looks like a quality, thick flannel. It is sturdy and doesn't fold over on itself. On the other hand, the shirt the real Lovelady (Groden's) is wearing looks like it's made of a thin fabric. Maybe it's not even flannel. Just look at the folding-over of fabric we see on Lovelady's sleeves. We don't see that on Neanderthal Man's and Dwarf Man's sleeves. Their shirt's fabric lays like flannel. Look at the arms... no folding over on itself.

Either that or Neanderthal and Dwarf have massively built arms that fills out the fabric. But I don't think that's it. I think that their shirt is made of a thick flannel and Lovelady's shirt isn't.

But I wouldn't even be comparing shirts if it weren't for the fact that Neanderthal Man's ear is so different than Lovelady's. There is something fishy going on here. And I find it interesting that the shirt -- the one thing about Neanderthal Man has that so convincingly makes people believe he is Lovelady -- was disavowed (originally) by Lovelady.

[Thomas Graves]

Same face + Same shirt + Same bald spot (viewable in other frames of the same 11/22/63 film) = Same Person.

-- Tommy

But Tommy, Neanderthal man doesn't have the same face as the other Loveladys. He doesn't look at all like Lovelady, even if I ignore the part of the face that can be distorted by smoking a cigarette.. I'll grant that lighting, haircut, etc., etc. can make a person look different. But the dead giveaway is the width of the ear. The ears don't match and there is no way to explain it away.

As for the shirt, the one that the real Lovelady owns appears to be slightly different than the others. It's like somebody spent a great deal of time and expense trying to make a plaid shirt that looks exactly like Neanderthal's shirt, but failed to realize that different fabric types lay differently. The shirt that Neanderthal Man and Dwarf Man are wearing looks like a quality, thick flannel. It is sturdy and doesn't fold over on itself. On the other hand, the shirt the real Lovelady (Groden's) is wearing looks like it's made of a thin fabric. Maybe it's not even flannel. Just look at the folding-over of fabric we see on Lovelady's sleeves. We don't see that on Neanderthal Man's and Dwarf Man's sleeves. Their shirt's fabric lays like flannel. Look at the arms... no folding over on itself.

Either that or Neanderthal and Dwarf have massively built arms that fills out the fabric. But I don't think that's it. I think that their shirt is made of a thick flannel and Lovelady's shirt isn't.

But I wouldn't even be comparing shirts if it weren't for the fact that Neanderthal Man's ear is so different than Lovelady's. There is something fishy going on here. And I find it interesting that the shirt -- the one thing about Neanderthal Man has that so convincingly makes people believe he is Lovelady -- was disavowed (originally) by Lovelady.

Dear Sandy,

As far as I know, a person's face isn't changed much by "smoking a cigarette."

That person's face is, however, significantly distorted when he or she intentionally juts his or her chin way out while slowly exhaling smoke from said cigarette through the mouth. (Notice how "Neanderthal Man's mouth is open, Sandy?)

Your belief that someone tried to replicate "Neanderthal Man's" shirt for Lovelady to be photographed in by Groden smacks of "over-the-top conspiratorial thinking" and / or paranoia, IMHO.

I'm really getting tired of arguing with you, Sandy. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, and that I will never, ever change your mind on any of this.

Perhaps another member would like to chime in here, either "pro" or "con"?

-- Tommy

Edited October 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[...]

Same face + Same shirt + Same bald spot (viewable in other frames of the same 11/22/63 film) = Same Person.

-- Tommy

But Tommy, Neanderthal man doesn't have the same face as the other Loveladys. He doesn't look at all like Lovelady, even if I ignore the part of the face that can be distorted by smoking a cigarette.. I'll grant that lighting, haircut, etc., etc. can make a person look different. But the dead giveaway is the width of the ear. The ears don't match and there is no way to explain it away.

As for the shirt, the one that the real Lovelady owns appears to be slightly different than the others. It's like somebody spent a great deal of time and expense trying to make a plaid shirt that looks exactly like Neanderthal's shirt, but failed to realize that different fabric types lay differently. The shirt that Neanderthal Man and Dwarf Man are wearing looks like a quality, thick flannel. It is sturdy and doesn't fold over on itself. On the other hand, the shirt the real Lovelady (Groden's) is wearing looks like it's made of a thin fabric. Maybe it's not even flannel. Just look at the folding-over of fabric we see on Lovelady's sleeves. We don't see that on Neanderthal Man's and Dwarf Man's sleeves. Their shirt's fabric lays like flannel. Look at the arms... no folding over on itself.

Either that or Neanderthal and Dwarf have massively built arms that fills out the fabric. But I don't think that's it. I think that their shirt is made of a thick flannel and Lovelady's shirt isn't.

But I wouldn't even be comparing shirts if it weren't for the fact that Neanderthal Man's ear is so different than Lovelady's. There is something fishy going on here. And I find it interesting that the shirt -- the one thing about Neanderthal Man has that so convincingly makes people believe he is Lovelady -- was disavowed (originally) by Lovelady.

Dear Sandy,

As far as I know, a person's face isn't changed much by "smoking a cigarette."

That person's face is, however, significantly distorted when he or she intentionally juts his or her chin way out while slowly exhaling smoke from said cigarette through the mouth. (Notice how "Neanderthal Man's mouth is open, Sandy?)

Your belief that someone tried to replicate "Neanderthal Man's" shirt for Lovelady to be photographed in by Groden smacks of "over-the-top conspiratorial thinking" and / or paranoia, IMHO.

I'm really getting tired of arguing with you, Sandy. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall, and that I will never, ever change your mind on any of this.

Perhaps another member would like to chime in here, either "pro" or "con"?

-- Tommy

PS Another clue that "Dwarf Man" is the same person as "Groden's Lovelady" is the angle of the (their) left eyebrow, and, something I just now noticed -- the separate black dot (hair?, mole?) at the far left end of it. Look again, folks.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Oh it is Lovelady for sure, captured by Hughes and Martin

Scroll down http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

Edited October 26, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Ray Mitcham]

Quote by Sandy

"You and Ray crack me up. You so much want that guy to be Lovelady that you don't believe your own two eyes and will make all kinds of excuses for the differences in looks."

Why on Earth would I want the guy to look like Lovelady? I have no pet theory I am trying to prove. In the past, I have corrected fellow Conspiracy Truthers (e.g.Cinque) when they have said daft things which were obviously wrong. Looks like I still have to.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Thomas Graves]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

Edited October 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

When was the photo on the left taken?

[Thomas Graves]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

bumped

[Robert Prudhomme]

When was the photo on the left taken?

bump

[Thomas Graves]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

bumped

Howdy Bob,

See post #142 by David Lifton. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18697?&page=10

Turns out devious ol' Lovelady was wearing a very similar, but different, shirt for Groden in 1976.

So Sandy was right, It's a different shirt. Big deal.

Hmmm. Twelve or thirteen years between the assassination and when Groden took the photographs. Lovelady may very well have thrown out the original shirt by that time. Lovelady should have "fessed" up to Harris and Groden instead of trying to replicate the shirt, himself, without their realizing it.

-- Tommy

Edited October 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

I wonder how the chin in the 1963 photo compares to "Oswald's" chin in the BYPs?

[Ray Mitcham]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

bumped

Howdy Bob,

See post #142 by David Lifton. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18697?&page=10

Turns out devious ol' Lovelady was wearing a very similar, but different, shirt for Groden in 1976.

So Sandy was right, It's a different shirt. Big deal.

Hmmm. Twelve or thirteen years between the assassination and when Groden took the photographs. Lovelady may very well have thrown out the original shirt by that time. Lovelady should have "fessed" up to Harris and Groden instead of trying to replicate the shirt, himself, without their realizing it.

-- Tommy

Lifton

"Furthermore, if you compare the striped pattern, they are obviously different. Yes, both are plaid shirts, so they are certainly similar. But the vertical stripes in the shirt worn in the Martin film are distinctly different from the vertical stripes in the 1976 photo. Also, the shirt Lovelady was wearing has a distinctly visible pocket in the left breast area—whereas the shirt Lovelady was wearing when he posed for Groden in 1976 has no such pocket."

Litton is wrong in saying the vertical stripes in both photos don't match. They do. In neither photo are the black stripes vertical on the body of the shirt, but they on the sleeves.

Litton was also incorrect in saying that the shirt in the Groden photo (the left of the two"Loveladys shown above) did not have a breast pocket. I showed this to be the case several years ago. (Look at the photo and you can see the outline of the pocket to the right of the first stripe to the(our )right).

If they are the only reasons, then Lifton is wrong.

Unfortunately, at the moment I am unable to upload a photo showing this, as I can't access Photobucket where the photo is.

I will post it as soon as I can.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Thomas Graves]

Disregard Cinque's words here, but please note the just-visible "dot" (hair?, mole?) at the left edge of Lovelady's eyebrow in the "1957" photo. I'm talking about his left eyebrow on "our" right. -- Tommy

We can see the same "dot" in both of these images:

-- Tommy

So now all we've got to do is figure out what Shelley did after he walked over to the "island" about 20 seconds after the assassination, and what Lovelady did after he ran down Elm Street Extension to the the railway yard / parking lot (if he made it that far).

bumped

Howdy Bob,

See post #142 by David Lifton. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18697?&page=10

Turns out devious ol' Lovelady was wearing a very similar, but different, shirt for Groden in 1976.

So Sandy was right, It's a different shirt. Big deal.

Hmmm. Twelve or thirteen years between the assassination and when Groden took the photographs. Lovelady may very well have thrown out the original shirt by that time. Lovelady should have "fessed" up to Harris and Groden instead of trying to replicate the shirt, himself, without their realizing it.

-- Tommy

Lifton

"Furthermore, if you compare the striped pattern, they are obviously different. Yes, both are plaid shirts, so they are certainly similar. But the vertical stripes in the shirt worn in the Martin film are distinctly different from the vertical stripes in the 1976 photo. Also, the shirt Lovelady was wearing has a distinctly visible pocket in the left breast area—whereas the shirt Lovelady was wearing when he posed for Groden in 1976 has no such pocket."

Litton is wrong in saying the vertical stripes in both photos don't match. They do. In neither photo are the black stripes vertical on the body of the shirt, but they are on the sleeves.

Litton was also incorrect in saying that the shirt in the Groden photo (the left of the two"Loveladys" shown above) did not have a breast pocket. I showed this to be the case several years ago. (Look at the photo and you can see the outline of the pocket to the right of the first stripe to the (our )right).

If they are the only reasons, then Lifton is wrong.

Unfortunately, at the moment I am unable to upload a photo showing this, as I can't access Photobucket where the photo is.

I will post it as soon as I can.

Ray,

In a nutshell, do you think the two shirts ("Grodon's" and "Neanderthal Man's") are the same, or just very similar?

-- Tommy

Edited October 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves