Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Bill Miller]

I watched a video of yours saying that this Lovelady/Shelley find was in 2013. Do I need to read an entire thread to point out what was wrong in that premise as I did that in just a couple of pages of testimony.

 

Perhaps Shelley and Lovelady met Calvery on the other side of the street or on their way there - I can accept that and why Shelley and Lovelady were able to look back and see Truly going up the stairs. But I do not believe they independently lied about meeting Calvery.

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Bill Miller

[James R Gordon]

Bart,

I had hoped you might consider debating.

I accept your decision.

James.

[James R Gordon]

Bill,

I have just read through the entire thread - a point that Bart suggested.

It is such a jumbled thread - which moves in all sorts of directions - you come away somewhat confused.

Bart suggests that having read the complete thread the member would fully understand the theory and argument for Prayerman.

Well I am not sure anyone is more informed having read the complete thread. From what I can see there is no summary post or starter document as there is in Prayer person.

This thread was started by William Kelly wondering whether the Prayer man  is actually Oswald leaving the TSBD.The term Prayer Man was created by Sean Murphy - whose contributes in the early pages of the thread - because the figure William Kelly thinks may be Oswald has his hands and arms are positioned in a way that makes it looks like the person is at prayer. 

James

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/17/2016 at 9:18 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Have you read this thread, yet, William?  Maybe the answers you're demanding from me are hidden in it.

--  Tommy

Here's a Jack Martin frame, from Duncan's website, which I posted on the  "Did Gloria Calvery Almost Catch Up With Marion Baker?" thread, this forum, way, way back in the day.

 

Gloria Calvery, Karan (sic) Hicks, and Carol Reed  worked together (iirc) and all said they stood together during the shooting.  It would be nice if someone could find photos of Hicks and/or Arnold taken before or after 11/22/63 for comparison purposes.

 

Edited for Bill Miller.

I'm not talking about photos of "Hicks" and / or "Arnold" that were taken on 11/22/63.  I'm talking about verified (i.e. high school, college, newspaper, etc) photos of Hicks or Arnold that were taken on other days.

--  Tommy

Edited December 19, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Davidson]

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 15-20 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

[Ray Mitcham]

6 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

snip

The problems with that statement are:-

a)    The two identified as Shelly and Lovelady are east of the TSBD entrance and are walking west towards the entrance.

  These two people - whoever they are - are returning.

c)    If they are Shelly and Lovelady, they have been somewhere and are now returning back to the TSBD.

 

snip

 

James.

 

"East of the entrance"? You sure, James?

[James R Gordon]

I believe so Ray.

Unless I have misunderstood the the image, it appears to me that the entrance to the TSBD is in front of them.

I understood that - if you take the Houston Elm Street crossing then:

a) to go from the TSBT to Main Street is to go South.

to go from the crossing - on up Houston street - is to go North.

Therefore I believe if the two are walking towards the TSBD entrance they are actually walking west.

I believe that is correct. Please correct me if I am wrong.

James.

[James R Gordon]

I have deleted my posts about where the two individuals were going.

I thought I was seeing the entrance to the TSBD, when infant I was not.

James.

[Bill Miller]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Gloria Calvery, Karan (sic) Hicks, and Carolyn Reed  worked together (iirc) and all said they stood together during the shooting.  It would be nice if someone could find photos of Hicks and/or Arnold taken before or after 11/22/63 for comparison purposes.

--  Tommy

I believe 'they' (four women in total so far) said they went out together to see the parade and took a position along Elm Street.

[Bill Miller]

18 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Then put evidence forward why my 'observations' are wrong.

The ball is in his court, not mine.

Have a great week

The ball was hit back to your court and you didn't explain how if what you say is Lovelady's plaid shirt, then why is it no longer a uniformed length all the way around his body? All you did was say something irrelevant and not a very on point answer to my question ..... Kamp:  "Bill if you cannot see this obvious fact that it is Shelley and Lovelady, alongside with all the paper as mentioned in the link, then that is your loss."  When did Lovelady get a shirt that is longer in the back so to show his pants in the front all the way to the belt-line .... much like the guy to out right of the steps by what looks like a mailbox. One could Billy slipped on a jacket, but then it wouldn't be plaid like his shirt. So have you a solution?

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Guest]

 

Take a real close look at this image!

Now the blackness supposedly shows that Lovelady's shirt was longer down at the back than in the front. YES?

Really? Take another look!!!

Still don't see it?

Now look inside the red circle, that blackness goes further to the right than Lovelady does it not?

Could it be that this is an object/person in front of Lovelady?

Well why don't we have a look at Gerda's GIF especially the first half a dozen or so frames where Lovelady is the most visible....

The so called shirt in conjunction with the dark object changes shape every damn frame and the black object even stays behind while Lovelady walks on with Shelley.

Indeed James, case closed.

 

Lovelady and Shelley both lied in their WC testimony about them staying behind on the steps and seeing Vicky Adams on the first floor. FACT

Both their first statements paint a very different picture. FACT

Calvery was nowhere near the steps encountered by Shelley, nor Lovelady FACT

 

Game, set and match!

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

One more thing.

 

Anyone whois anyone can make sense of this whole thread, thing is you have to be patient and put the pieces together.

I spent 4 days reading it and even more to put the bits together.

 

Stan Dane did it as well!

https://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Man-Shadows-Into-Light/dp/1944205012/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

One more thing.

 

Anyone whois anyone can make sense of this whole thread, thing is you have to be patient and put the pieces together.

I spent 4 days reading it and even more to put the bits together.

 

Stan Dane did it as well!

https://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Man-Shadows-Into-Light/dp/1944205012/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

"Anyone who is anyone .... "  that is not an argument, but a rather arrogant supplement for facts. By the way - how long did it take you to put the video together because it sounded like when you show the Newman's laying on the ground over their kids at the 10:12 mark that you called them what sounds like 'The Wiegmans'. How much time did you guys spend on making sure that you referenced the right people in your video?

You said that Shelley and Lovelady stayed up on the steps for about three minutes. You knew this was a misstatement of fact when you read it because the following information was given by Bill Shelley a short while latter in his questioning about when he saw Baker and Truly going up the steps towards the entrance to the building

... Mr. BALL - After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - You were still standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you went out across Elm?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, to the divider.

Mr. BALL - Did you run out to the point or walk out?
MMr. SHELLEY - I believe we trotted out there.

Mr. BALL - And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, uh-huh,
 

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

 Now back to this ... explain how Lovelady's plaid shirt hangs so far down in the back than it does in the front?

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Andrej Stancak]

Now back to this ... explain how Lovelady's plaid shirt hangs so far down in the back than it does in the front?

 

Bill:

The shirt is the same Lovelady' shirt in Couch film, Wiegman film, Martin film, and Hughes film - both in the initial part of the film in which he is seen on the front steps facing Elm Street and in the final part of the film in which he looks into the doorway. And in Martin film, you can see that he has his left hand resting on his hip which lifts the front rim of the shirt. In Couch film, Lovelady's left hand appears to be stuck in his trouser's pocket or also resting on his left hip, which lifts the front part of the shirt. 

I would like to turn your attention on the bald spot on Lovelady's vertex in Couch film matching the exact same spot seen in Martin film. This bald spot, together with matching shape of shirt across films, leave no doubts that the person in Couch film is Lovelady.

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Bill Miller]

10 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Now back to this ... explain how Lovelady's plaid shirt hangs so far down in the back than it does in the front?

 

Bill:

The shirt is the same Lovelady' shirt in Couch film, Wiegman film, Martin film, and Hughes film - both in the initial part of the film in which he is seen on the front steps facing Elm Street and in the final part of the film in which he looks into the doorway. And in Martin film, you can see that he has his left hand resting on his hip which lifts the front rim of the shirt. In Couch film, Lovelady's left hand appears to be stuck in his trouser's pocket or also resting on his left hip, which lifts the front part of the shirt. 

I would like to turn your attention on the bald spot on Lovelady's vertex in Couch film matching exact same spot seen in Martin film. This bald spot, together with matching shape of shirt across films, leaves no doubts that the person in Couch film is Lovelady.

Thanks for the response and explanation, but Lovelady's shirt was not that long in my view. Is it just me or does the back of it appear to go far down on his rump? I actually wish it was Lovelady.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Bill Miller