Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Guest]

On 12/20/2016 at 9:57 PM, Bill Miller said:

Three researchers who have a history going back to Lancer and the ED Forum of more than a decade ago. One of them was referred to as a Photo expert in this thread and the other has created the most detailed scaled map of the Plaza that I know of. They can post their names if they wish.

I am well versed in the witness testimony and no how to cross reference it when putting together an image of what transpired on 11/22/63. Here is a link to one such piece that led to the discovery of who the man seen through the pyracantha bush was and where he was standing during the shooting. You may not know of me as I don't seek publicity or recognition - only accuracy .... to which some people seemingly take offense to when it interferes with their own beliefs.

http://www.jfklancer.com/miller/mysteryman.html

As far as my bio goes - I used to have one on this site and have not checked since being here as there seems to be plenty of people who know who I am anyway. Even over at the 'Foul Mouth Forum' they know of me as they mentioned it in their vulgar rants where seldom there is a post that doesn't use the "F-word" or "C-word" in it.

You have seen my work from time to time and probably didn't even know it because someone posted it without a reference to its originator - no worries here.

 

Thank you Bill.

[Guest]

On 12/20/2016 at 10:02 PM, Bill Miller said:

I have posted quite a bit of evidence - even red lettered a lot of it so to make it hard to miss. If you missed it - I can try making the text larger if it helps.  

Bill you are only offering a small part of it, I also pointed out to read the actual thread, as daunting as it may seem,  it would bring you up to speed with things and complete the so called image a lot more.

[Guest]

On 12/22/2016 at 9:41 AM, Robin Unger said:

Regarding Lovelady's shirt hanging down in the back, that appears normal to me since Lovelady wore his shirt hanging out, not tucked in to his pants.

Bob Jackson photo

Lovelady was at least 20 pounds heavier in the Jackson pic.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Bill you are only offering a small part of it, I also pointed out to read the actual thread, as daunting as it may seem,  it would bring you up to speed with things and complete the so called image a lot more.

Are you saying that the thread is more detailed than the video of yours I have watched ... I have been slowly reading the thread and have not seen anything so far that has been impressive in making Prayer-Man into Oswald.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Lovelady was at least 20 pounds heavier in the Jackson pic.

 

Considering Lovelady's short stature ... I think 20lbs would have a more dramatic effect than what is seen there.

[Guest]

On 24/12/2016 at 6:23 PM, Bill Miller said:

 

Considering Lovelady's short stature ... I think 20lbs would have a more dramatic effect than what is seen there.

Again merely just a belief!

further

my movie is a year old

there are 4 coming, each chapter its own film due to the amount of material.

 

this thread presents an abundance of info which was, at first, the main source for the first movie

I suggest you start reading the entire thread firstT and then investigate further

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Again merely just a belief!

further

my movie is a year old

there are 4 coming, each chapter its own film due to the amount of material.

 

this thread presents an abundance of info which was, at first, the main source for the first movie

I suggest you start reading the entire thread firstT and then investigate further

I have posted several times that I had started reading the thread. What I have seen so far is circumstantial evidence.

[James R Gordon]

3 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I have posted several times that I had started reading the thread. What I have seen so far is circumstantial evidence.

Bart,

I agree with Bill. I have read most of the thread and - aside from the circumstantial evidence throughout the thread - I see no consistent line of thought. On a number of times you have chastised members to read the whole thread. In doing so, you imply that once having read the thread we will better understand your position. 

It is a real “cop-out” and evasion of the numbers questions that have been raised to respond by saying “read the whole thread.”

May I offer a suggestion. It is clear you know the thread better than most. Therefore - rather than constantly referring members to read the whole thread - which contains around 1000+ posts - could you highlight what ( for you are the most important posts ) for us to read to better understand your position.

James

[Guest]

On 12/28/2016 at 4:32 PM, Bill Miller said:

I have posted several times that I had started reading the thread. What I have seen so far is circumstantial evidence.

My point exactly.

Let's just picture this:

This thread is about 3.5 years old, many posts on many pages. The reason for its bloated appearance are of course the rubbish opinionated posts that add nothing to the discussion of investigating Prayer Man whatsoever. And unless no one had anything new to mention this thread has had times of stillness

Stan Dane did a brilliant job in editing this dross out and put it together in a concise manner with his book Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light.

I think the large majority of 5 star reviews for this book speaks for themselves, the one star review that jumps out is by Ralph Cinque.

Bill Miller waltzes in here, after absence from JFK research for a few years, and decides to post, without having read the read the thread, the book, the Prayer Man website and many other available sources of info regarding this matter, and only offers his partial knowledge and opinion. That people have a partial grasp of this case is nothing to be ashamed of, but I for one wouldn't dare to barge in threads about the autopsy, the shells, bullets you name it 

Bill Miller does however, and that's the last 6 or so pages of this thread. Once confronted with several statements and or leads he just goes into denial mode.

Andrej Stancak made a pair of very concise posts explaining what is at hand here. Bill Miller decides to just shrug them off. This is someone who has not done his homework on this matter and rather wishes to go round and round and drag us in there. 

He refers to the material put forward as circumstantial evidence, pot...........kettle.

We are dealing with someone who is in a deep state of denial here and besides beliefs offers nothing to the detriment of Oswald being Prayer Man.

And that is all I wish to spend my time debating this on.

**********************************************

I'd like to add that the bigger picture and the barrage of evidence puts a very strong case together for Oswald to be Prayer Man. And that the pic. is merely the icing on the cake.

1. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.
2. Oswald stated he was on the first floor.having lunch and while the motorcade went past. Many newspaper reports and interrogation reports support this.
3. Shelley and Lovelady lied in their WC testimony when it came to to their timings and observations
4. Truly lied.
5. Baker lied.
6. Reid and Sanders lied.
7. Frazier has been economical With the truth as well.
8. The statements of all black employees are all made under heavy duress and are shown to be all over the place. Their stories do not add up at all, and their WC testimonies are clear indicators of people who do not wish to divulge anything at all and rather wish this was over soon so hey could back to what they were doing in the first place, providing a livelihood.In 60's Dallas These people were referred to as n*****s and those that were 'involved' were sh*t scared. Eddie Piper was full of it, and he needed to come back a second time in front of the WC to straighten his mess out. Troy West wished it would all go away.....
9. The actions of Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles already nullifies Oswald as the 6th floor shooter, but also the 2nd floor lunch room encounter as well due to their immediate descent but also D. Garner's statement that she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls went down. 
10. Add on Otis Williams who went up to the 4th and is seen in a6 and Wiegman yet not in Darnell. As per his statements he took the back stairs.
11. There are serious pointers that Oswald was staying much longer at the TSBD than has been believed. A few newspapers reported about this, but also the so called roll call sheet with Oswald's name on top of people present inside the TSBD. And the statements that people could leave after their leaving their name and address.
12. Harry D. Holmes, postal inspector, sat in on Oswald's final interrogation on Sunday, November 24, 1963.  When Oswald was asked where he encountered the policeman, Oswald said he was in the vestibule or approaching it, said Holmes. Holmes went on to clarify that Oswald was talking about the vestibule on the first floor by the TSBD front entrance. When Baker asked him who he was, Oswald began to reply when Roy Truly, came up and said "He is one of our men" and the officer asked him to step aside. a term he used iin his statement and also in his WC testimony.
13. Fritz's actions on Nov 22 are downright deplorable. Too much to list.
14. Bookhout and Hosty and their reports.
15. Kelley's report.

All inside this thread!

 

I am going to quit and unless I have something new to mention regarding the case you won't see me posting here.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

On 12/24/2016 at 6:23 PM, Bill Miller said:

 

Considering Lovelady's short stature ... I think 20lbs would have a more dramatic effect than what is seen there.

This again is just a a personal belief.

Anyone else can see the dramatic effect with the increase of Lovelady's head and the shirt already.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bart Kamp
spelliing

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

**********************************************

I'd like to add that the bigger picture and the barrage of evidence puts a very strong case together for Oswald to be Prayer Man. And that the pic. is merely the icing on the cake.

1. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.
2. Oswald stated he was on the first floor.having lunch and while the motorcade went past. Many newspaper reports and interrogation reports support this.
3. Shelley and Lovelady lied in their WC testimony when it came to to their timings and observations
4. Truly lied.
5. Baker lied.
6. Reid and Sanders lied.
7. Frazier has been economical With the truth as well.
8. The statements of all black employees are all made under heavy duress and are shown to be all over the place. Their stories do not add up at all, and their WC testimonies are clear indicators of people who do not wish to divulge anything at all and rather wish this was over soon so hey could back to what they were doing in the first place, providing a livelihood.In 60's Dallas These people were referred to as n*****s and those that were 'involved' were sh*t scared. Eddie Piper was full of it, and he needed to come back a second time in front of the WC to straighten his mess out. Troy West wished it would all go away.....
9. The actions of Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles already nullifies Oswald as the 6th floor shooter, but also the 2nd floor lunch room encounter as well due to their immediate descent but also D. Garner's statement that she saw Baker and Truly come up after the girls went down. 
10. Add on Otis Williams who went up to the 4th and is seen in a6 and Wiegman yet not in Darnell. As per his statements he took the back stairs.
11. There are serious pointers that Oswald was staying much longer at the TSBD than has been believed. A few newspapers reported about this, but also the so called roll call sheet with Oswald's name on top of people present inside the TSBD. And the statements that people could leave after their leaving their name and address.
12. Harry D. Holmes, postal inspector, sat in on Oswald's final interrogation on Sunday, November 24, 1963.  When Oswald was asked where he encountered the policeman, Oswald said he was in the vestibule or approaching it, said Holmes. Holmes went on to clarify that Oswald was talking about the vestibule on the first floor by the TSBD front entrance. When Baker asked him who he was, Oswald began to reply when Roy Truly, came up and said "He is one of our men" and the officer asked him to step aside. a term he used iin his statement and also in his WC testimony.
13. Fritz's actions on Nov 22 are downright deplorable. Too much to list.
14. Bookhout and Hosty and their reports.
15. Kelley's report.

 

I am going to quit and unless I have something new to mention regarding the case you won't see me posting here.

I find it ironic as to how certain individuals will say that all these people "lied" without considering that various people can recall an event with some room for error and actually believe they are being truthful in describing the same occurrence.

The lunchroom encounter is one such example. That encounter was investigated on-site and nowhere have I ever read that there was a lunchroom on the first floor that could be mistaken for the lunchroom on the 2nd floor. There was what was called a domino room if I remember correctly. But does that justify claiming people lied because it doesn't fit a personal belief?

When Truly and Baker entered the building ... no one had said they went to a 1st floor domino room looking for an assassin. As I recall they had went to the elevator so Baker could get to the top of the building as that was his reason for entering the building in the first place. Once inside - it was the elevator not being readily available that led to Truly leading Baker to the stairway. I personally do not see the confusion here unless someone is wanting to be confused for what ever reason.

Shelley and Lovelady's timing of their actions is another one. They basically are telling the same thing despite the poor style of questioning that they were being presented with. They saw Gloria Calvery running towards them crying and saying the President had been shot. That can be interpreted as she came up to the steps to them or they started down the steps to meet her. The Darnell film shows the latter to be the most likely probability. On that particular matter it looks like the only lie that was being told was the one involving our own interpretation of the poorly designed questioning of the witnesses. This is not uncommon when it comes to cross referencing witnesses statements. I personally believe that human error is often overlooked before claiming someone has lied. Both Lovelady and Shelley mentioned going from the steps to the divider/island. I believe it was Shelley when asked if he went straight across the street from the TSBD steps - he replied that it was a bit more angled to the right. And when asked about seeing Truly and the Patrolman entering the building - Lovelady said he looked back after 15 to 25 steps to see Roy and Officer Baker enter the building. I find nothing about what was said on that issue that was a lie. Even the going on from there to the RR Yard - pausing for a while and then heading back to the TSBD for a span of 2 - 3 minutes isn't a big deal as it they only estimated the time out in the plaza before returning to the building. Eventually Lovelady made it back outside and is filmed in the area of the steps, which that was my only interest in the matter. So yes, just keep telling people that everyone lied despite James asking that you make specific references as to how you reached that conclusion. At least if you have nothing more to add, then you won't have to worry about running up the thread count answering questions.  

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I find it ironic as to how certain individuals will say that all these people "lied" without considering that various people can recall an event with some room for error and actually believe they are being truthful in describing the same occurrence.

The lunchroom encounter is one such example. That encounter was investigated on-site and nowhere have I ever read that there was a lunchroom on the first floor that could be mistaken for the lunchroom on the 2nd floor. There was what was called a domino room if I remember correctly. But does that justify claiming people lied because it doesn't fit a personal belief?

When Truly and Baker entered the building ... no one had said they went to a 1st floor domino room looking for an assassin. As I recall they had went to the elevator so Baker could get to the top of the building as that was his reason for entering the building in the first place. Once inside - it was the elevator not being readily available that led to Truly leading Baker to the stairway. I personally do not see the confusion here unless someone is wanting to be confused for what ever reason.

Shelley and Lovelady's timing of their actions is another one. They basically are telling the same thing despite the poor style of questioning that they were being presented with. They saw Gloria Calvery running towards them crying and saying the President had been shot. That can be interpreted as she came up to the steps to them or they started down the steps to meet her. The Darnell film shows the latter to be the most likely probability. On that particular matter it looks like the only lie that was being told was the one involving our own interpretation of the poorly designed questioning of the witnesses. This is not uncommon when it comes to cross referencing witnesses statements. I personally believe that human error is often overlooked before claiming someone has lied. Both Lovelady and Shelley mentioned going from the steps to the divider/island. I believe it was Shelley when asked if he went straight across the street from the TSBD steps - he replied that it was a bit more angled to the right. And when asked about seeing Truly and the Patrolman entering the building - Lovelady said he looked back after 15 to 25 steps to see Roy and Officer Baker enter the building. I find nothing about what was said on that issue that was a lie. Even the going on from there to the RR Yard - pausing for a while and then heading back to the TSBD for a span of 2 - 3 minutes isn't a big deal as it they only estimated the time out in the plaza before returning to the building. Eventually Lovelady made it back outside and is filmed in the area of the steps, which that was my only interest in the matter. So yes, just keep telling people that everyone lied despite James asking that you make specific references as to how you reached that conclusion. At least if you have nothing more to add, then you won't have to worry about running up the thread count answering questions.  

 

Crystal clear example of someone who is not up to date with the facts...I rest my case.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Crystal clear example of someone who is not up to date with the facts...I rest my case.

I will quote James Gordon:

"  Bart, ..................  I have read most of the thread and - aside from the circumstantial evidence throughout the thread - I see no consistent line of thought. On a number of times you have chastised members to read the whole thread. In doing so, you imply that once having read the thread we will better understand your position. 

It is a real “cop-out” and evasion of the numbers questions that have been raised to respond by saying “read the whole thread.”

May I offer a suggestion. It is clear you know the thread better than most. Therefore - rather than constantly referring members to read the whole thread - which contains around 1000+ posts - could you highlight what ( for you are the most important posts ) for us to read to better understand your position. "

Bart response:

" I'd like to add that the bigger picture and the barrage of evidence puts a very strong case together for Oswald to be Prayer Man. And that the pic. is merely the icing on the cake.

1. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.
2. Oswald stated he was on the first floor.having lunch and while the motorcade went past. Many newspaper reports and interrogation reports support this.
3. Shelley and Lovelady lied in their WC testimony when it came to to their timings and observations
4. Truly lied.
5. Baker lied.
6. Reid and Sanders lied.
7. Frazier has been economical With the truth as well.
8. etc.
9. etc. ............................................................................  "

 

Bart response #2:

"  Crystal clear example of someone who is not up to date with the facts...I rest my case. "

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

In this post I will show Bill Miller why the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter is being challenged. (Well, some key parts of it.) In the post I will narrow down what really happened to three possible scenarios.

I ask forum members more knowledgeable than myself to point out mistakes I've made so that I can correct them. I hope Bart Kamp will weigh in here.

 

5 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Even the going on from there to the RR Yard - pausing for a while and then heading back to the TSBD for a span of 2 - 3 minutes isn't a big deal as it they only estimated the time out in the plaza before returning to the building.

One of them (Lovelady I believe) also said that they went down to where the limo was during the shooting, and they stayed there for four or five minutes.

So, in all, they went 1) to the island across the street from the TSBD entrance, 2) to where the limo had been, 3) to the railroad yard, and finally 4) back into the TSBD through the door on the west side (if I understand correctly where that door is). Upon going inside, they (or just Lovelady?) see Victoria Adams exit the stairway.

This Shelley/Lovelady testimony contradicts Victoria Adam's testimony. She said that she ran down the stairs right after the shots took place. She said that she saw Shelley and Lovelady as she exited the stairway. She also said that nobody else was there at the time.

Could Victoria Adams be so wrong in her recollections that she only thought she ran down the steps right after the shooting, whereas she really waited several minutes before running down? Or is it possible that Shelley and Lovelady actually went back inside the building right after the shooting, at which time Victoria Adams saw them?

Let's look at Shelley's and Lovelady's first-day affidavits:

Shelley said:

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvary who is an employee of this same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge."

Lovelady wrote:

"After it was over we went back into the building and I went to work. took some police officers up to search the building."

 

Here's the timeline I gather from these two statements, what Victoria Jackson testified to, and what we see (and don't see) in the films:

1. The shots are fired. Both Bill Shelley and Gloria Calvary immediately run to the island across the street from the TSBD.
    
2. Victoria Adams begins running down the steps.
    
3. Shelley decides to call his wife and runs back to the TSBD entrance. He and Lovelady run inside the building.
    
4. Victoria Adams exits the stairway on the first floor and sees Shelley and Lovelady, but nobody else. At the same time, Officer Baker runs across Elm Street extension.
    
5. Shelley calls his wife.

So far all the statements agree with each other and everybody is honest.

In later statements and testimony, Shelley and Lovelady add to their prior statements. They say they went to where the limo had been when the shots were fired, and later went to the railroad yard. Let's call this "The Excursion."

I have two questions regarding these additions:

1. Did The Excursion really happen?
2. If so, did The Excursion happen before or after Shelley and Lovelady went back inside the TSBD (as per their first day affidavits, quoted above).

Here are the three possibilities, and my takes on each one:

1. Shelley and Lovelady did indeed make the rail yard excursion after the shooting. But they did so AFTER they went back inside the TSBD.
   
   If this is what happened, then the first-day statements and Victoria Adams' testimony generally agree with each other. There are no lies. Other than what the WC drew out.
   
   The WC lawyers made it sound like that Lovelady first saw Victoria Adams exit the stairway after his and Shelley's long excursion (when in reality he first saw her the first time he went into the TSBD). The WC did this to discredit Victoria Adam's testimony, because it contradicted the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter.
    
2. Shelley and Lovelady did indeed make the rail yard excursion after the shooting. And they did so BEFORE they went back inside the TSBD.
   
   This scenario makes a xxxx out of Victoria Adams. (Or makes her memory seriously flawed.) Because she claimed to have seen Shelley and Lovelady upon exiting the stairway less than a minute after the shooting. Yet they weren't there till several minutes after the shooting.
    
3. Shelley and Lovelady's rail yard excursion was fabricated after the first day. It was done at the behest of the WC in order to discredit Victoria Adam's testimony, since it contradicted the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter.
   
   This scenario makes liars of Shelley and Lovelady. It also begs the question why Victoria Adams was called to testify. Had she not been called, then this charade would have been unnecessary.
    

Edited December 30, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I will quote James Gordon:

"  Bart, ..................  I have read most of the thread and - aside from the circumstantial evidence throughout the thread - I see no consistent line of thought. On a number of times you have chastised members to read the whole thread. In doing so, you imply that once having read the thread we will better understand your position. 

It is a real “cop-out” and evasion of the numbers questions that have been raised to respond by saying “read the whole thread.”

May I offer a suggestion. It is clear you know the thread better than most. Therefore - rather than constantly referring members to read the whole thread - which contains around 1000+ posts - could you highlight what ( for you are the most important posts ) for us to read to better understand your position. "

Bart response:

" I'd like to add that the bigger picture and the barrage of evidence puts a very strong case together for Oswald to be Prayer Man. And that the pic. is merely the icing on the cake.

1. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.
2. Oswald stated he was on the first floor.having lunch and while the motorcade went past. Many newspaper reports and interrogation reports support this.
3. Shelley and Lovelady lied in their WC testimony when it came to to their timings and observations
4. Truly lied.
5. Baker lied.
6. Reid and Sanders lied.
7. Frazier has been economical With the truth as well.
8. etc.
9. etc. ............................................................................  "

 

Bart response #2:

"  Crystal clear example of someone who is not up to date with the facts...I rest my case. "

 

To hide behind James Gordon is pretty lame Bill Miller.

I don't work for him and his request was partially addressed, but that reply you quote as a direct reply to James' request is solely your (!) interpretation.

A partial c&p is not helping you either.

If you are so desperate to know the main points then I suggest to get your finger out and 

1/ Read the actual thread.

2/ Read Stan Dane's book.

3/ Go to the Prayer Man website and other sites to get better up to date.

4/ The one year old movie only offers a partial picture.

 

Until then have a great one!

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bart Kamp