Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Bill Miller]

Paul,

I understand what you are saying and agree. I also get the DPD didn't have a tape recorder for reasons they had given, but the killing of JFK was a special circumstance and with the importance of making a solid case and the claim of being concerned of Oswald's rights ... I am troubled that they didn't bother to obtain one.

I am equally puzzled as to why if Oswald really wanted a particular person to represent him or not - Lee seemed to be a smart enough of an individual to know he could refuse to answer questions before his attorney could be obtained. In fact, any attorney could have seen that Lee's rights were not violated until Attorney Apt could be located and obtained. And maybe Lee did refuse to wait and freely wanted to talk to the police which some of his claimed responses does support this scenario - this is all the more reason the questioning should have been audio recorded. I find the excuse of the DPD not obtaining a tape recorder so to have an audio record of Lee's interviews to be quite mind-boggling.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Paul,

...I am equally puzzled as to why if Oswald really wanted a particular person to represent him or not - Lee seemed to be a smart enough of an individual to know he could refuse to answer questions before his attorney could be obtained. In fact, any attorney could have seen that Lee's rights were not violated until Attorney Apt could be located and obtained.

And maybe Lee did refuse to wait and freely wanted to talk to the police which some of his claimed responses does support this scenario - this is all the more reason the questioning should have been audio recorded. I find the excuse of the DPD not obtaining a tape recorder so to have an audio record of Lee's interviews to be quite mind-boggling.

Bill,

This is an EXCELLENT point.  Lee Harvey Oswald was ordinarily a tight-lipped person.  Yet the WC testimony of Fritz-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels-Holmes portrays Oswald as a blabber-mouth. 

According to Harry Holmes, he told them every detail about his trip to Mexico City -- why he went there, what consul he visited first, why he visited the second consul, and so on.  That just doesn't sound like Oswald to me.

Oswald was very intelligent, for a high-school dropout.  He taught himself Russian (by using Berlitz guides and Russian newspapers in 1959 at his Marine base in California).  Oswald was interested in science and technology.  He was somewhat of a snob in reading.  My point is that Oswald knew his RIGHTS.  He would not have demanded to see a specific attorney, and then, waiting for the attorney, blabbed his head off.

That is a serious contradiction in the WC testimony of Will Fritz and his whole team.  They not only failed to tape record the Oswald interrogations, they failed to take written notes, and then they coordinated their "recollections" with each other WEEKS LATER, and the Warren Commission accepted their make-believe scenario.

The worst part is that for a half-century, most CTers have also accepted their make-believe scenario.  It's finally time to put Fritz-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels-Holmes under a microscope.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Hugo Langendoen]

What keeps crossing my mind when I read all the discussions is the way the case was handled by police and other investigators at that time. In my option there is a lot that seems to be a cover up, or a conspiracy. But also when you would put all those ideas aside you still have to say that they made so many mistakes. In my opinion it would be far more problematic when they didn't do all those things on purpose. Let's for the argument say that all the people involved in the interrogation did all to the best of their ability. Then there can only be one conclusion : they all made some terrible and unforgivable mistakes. 

No notes - either with shorthand or longhand - of the interrogation of the person who supposedly killed the president and a police man, no tape recorder (although not common at that time, but still, this was a killing of the president. Reporters all over the place. Ordinary citizens in the police station and at the press briefings. 

It is unbelievable how many mistakes , problems, flaws there are when you would assume there was no cover up and all the people just did the best they could. 

[Alistair Briggs]

In furtherance of Hugo's comment,

What keeps crossing my mind is how complicated things must have been because there were two crimes that day - Kennedy assasination, murder of Tippit. Oswald was 'arrested' in regards to the latter, but linked to the former. Two distinctly different crimes - one suspect. How rare an occurence would that have been generally. How prepared would they have been to deal with such a thing to start with... complicated further by the 'evidence' accumulating against Oswald in regards to Kennedy's assasination was 'building' throughout (finger-prints on rifle! Backyard Photos! etc etc) whilst he was already in 'custody' for the Tippit killing... the shooting of a police officer is deemed one of the most serious crimes by Police Departments... the asassination of the President Kennedy was 'unique' circumstances (compared to the assasinations of Lincoln, Garfield and McKinley - all 'up close and personal')... the nature of the crime brought 'everyone to the table'; FBI, CIA, Secret Service, DPD... 'too many cooks spoiling the broth'... all in it was very much a (pardon my French) 'clusterxxxx' (meaning: A chaotic situation where everything seems to go wrong. It is often caused by incompetence, communication failure, or a complex environment.)

Also, no one at that time would have thought that Oswald was going to be killed himself...

Perhaps there was the thought, or even just the presumption, that once things had 'calmed down' they would have the chance to 'formally' interrogate Oswald - a formal interrogation that would be recorded, or at least hand written short hand notes would be taken, or even the use of a stenographer. Oswald being killed not only put a stop to a trial against him, but it also put paid to any further interrogations of him... and we are left with a feeling of 'damn', if only they had done in the first place what we think would be common sense... if only!

As Hugo said,

2 hours ago, Hugo Langendoen said:

It is unbelievable how many mistakes , problems, flaws there are when you would assume there was no cover up and all the people just did the best they could. 

It may be unbelievable because there is no real parralels to draw upon! Yes, many mistakes, problems and flaws, but it was a very chaotic situation. Does being such a chaotic situation justify the many mistakes, problems and flaws? Looking at it with hindsight, probably not! But hindsight was not something the people at the time had the benefit of...

Regards

Edited January 18, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair and Hugo,

Walt Brown said in his fine book, Teachery in Dallas (1995), that the Dallas police wanted to give the impression that they were bumblers, when actually they did everything right.

They acted according to a fairly tight plan, and their coordination was better than average.  Their first step, of course, was to get their hands on Oswald's rifle.  They did that early in the morning.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair and Hugo,

Here are some bullet points from chapter one of Walt Brown's book, Treachery in Dallas (1995), from the section entitled, "Blue Death:"

1.  If money of outsiders was involved, so would blackmail be.  Since there was no scandal of Dallas blackmail in 50 years, the odds are high that dedicated fanatics alone were used in the JFK shooting.  (This contradicts David Lifton's latest guesses, but I think Walt Brown makes a good point.)

2. The best assassins are natives of the area, fanatics, skilled and experienced with weapons, easily blended with the surroundings, and immune from the local authorities.  DPD officers fit this description best of all.

3. The DPD controlled the manpower in Dallas.  The DPD controlled the motorcade route.  The DPD controlled the crime scene.  The DPD controlled the evidence.  The DPD controlled the media.  The DPD controlled the suspect.  The DPD controlled the release of other suspects. The DPD controlled the suspect's family.  The DPD controlled the investigation.

4.  Despite several eye-witnesses who pointed to the 6th floor of the TSBD, the DPD dawdled for 42 minutes before arriving at the 6th floor.

5.  No APB (All Points Bulletin) was put out for Lee Harvey Oswald, yet the DPD always knew where he was.

6.   The DPD freely let witnesses go.  The DPD lineups were biased. 

7.  DPD Chief Jesse Curry repeatedly exposed LHO to the public, despite continuous threats. 

8.  Jack Ruby was controlled by the DPD

9.  Chief Curry perjured himself repeatedly regarding the number of DPD cops who knew Jack Ruby.

CONCLUSION:  The DPD did not bumble anything -- they succeeded brilliantly.  The DPD violation of the evidence and the crime scene was dazzling. 

GETTING BACK TO THE THEME OF THIS THREAD ON OSWALD LEAVING THE TSBD: The question presumes that Oswald left the TSBD by the front door -- and this is because DPD Captain Will Fritz said that Oswald himself said so.  I think Fritz was part of the conspiracy and deliberately lied.  Now, if we doubt Fritz, then we should reconsider the story of another victim of the JFK saga, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig, who claims that he saw Oswald running down the hill from behind the TSBD into a Green Rambler.  This suggests, by my reading, that Oswald left the TSBD by one of the rear exits.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul,

I will look in to the points you mention on Walt Brown's book - does sound like an interesting topic. For now, best to just address the part in relevance to the thread.

 

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

GETTING BACK TO THE THEME OF THIS THREAD ON OSWALD LEAVING THE TSBD: The question presumes that Oswald left the TSBD by the front door -- and this is because DPD Captain Will Fritz said that Oswald himself said so.  I think Fritz was part of the conspiracy and deliberately lied.  Now, if we doubt Fritz, then we should reconsider the story of another victim of the JFK saga, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig, who claims that he saw Oswald running down the hill from behind the TSBD into a Green Rambler.  This suggests, by my reading, that Oswald left the TSBD by one of the rear exits.   
 

Oswald leaving by one of the rear exits does make sense inasmuch as it would be a 'quieter' route, he wouldn't be noticed by as many people, a better route of escape... Having said that, Oswald wouldn't have known for sure that there wouldn't already be a police officer posted outside any rear exit and if that was the case (whether Oswald was the shooter, or was being set up...) then Oswald may have decided not to run that risk, and instead had the thought that leaving by the front, although there would be more people there to see him, it may have been the 'safer' option anyway (hiding in 'plain sight')...

Anyroads, setting the above aside, did Roger Craig not say his sighting of 'Oswald' was 15 minutes after the shots? How does that tie in with other things? Also, for it to tie in with your thinking that Oswald left by one of the rear exits, does it not presuppose that it was in fact Oswald that he saw? Could it not have been someone else...

Regards

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul,

I will look into the points you mention on Walt Brown's book - does sound like an interesting topic. For now, best to just address the part in relevance to the thread.

Oswald leaving by one of the rear exits does make sense inasmuch as it would be a 'quieter' route, he wouldn't be noticed by as many people, a better route of escape... Having said that, Oswald wouldn't have known for sure that there wouldn't already be a police officer posted outside any rear exit and if that was the case (whether Oswald was the shooter, or was being set up...) then Oswald may have decided not to run that risk, and instead had the thought that leaving by the front, although there would be more people there to see him, it may have been the 'safer' option anyway (hiding in 'plain sight')...

Anyroads, setting the above aside, did Roger Craig not say his sighting of 'Oswald' was 15 minutes after the shots? How does that tie in with other things? Also, for it to tie in with your thinking that Oswald left by one of the rear exits, does it not presuppose that it was in fact Oswald that he saw? Could it not have been someone else...

Regards

Alistair,

First, Oswald had no guarantees that he would avoid all DPD policemen -- after all, he just had a brush with Officer Baker, pistol in hand.  But Oswald sailed through that smoothly -- Oswald was a smooth operator; he was cool, calm and collected -- but still very shrewd.  IMHO he would have used the closest exits with the fewest people -- namely -- one of the back exits.

Secondly, let's review the TIMING of Roger Craig and his "14 or 15 minutes" before he heard the whistle that caused him to look up to see Oswald running down the GN hill and into a Green Nash Rambler.  I will classify this along with the TIMING of Billy Lovelady and Vickie Adams -- very subjective. There was so much going on -- virtual chaos.   So, I think Craig's TIMING was way off.  Here is the sequence of his events:

1.  I heard an explosion. A few seconds later, I heard another explosion and I knew it was a shot. And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward Houston Street.

2.  I continued running across Houston Street, across the parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade went down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and started to look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I began moving people back out of the railroad yard.
 
3. As I reached the railroad yard, a girl getting her car thought they came from the park area on the north side of Elm Street.

3. I began looking around and asking people if they'd seen anything.

4.  That's when a young man and his wife, Arnold and Barbara Rowland, said he saw two men on the sixth floor of the TSBD; one of them had a rifle with a telescopic sight -- but he thought they were Secret Service agents and didn't report it.  He pointed out the window to me.

5. I turned them over to Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis for interrogation.

6. Nobody had sealed off the TSBD by this time.

7. Then Detective Buddy Walthers said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the south curb of Elm Street. So, we crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet might have hit.

8.  That's when I heard the whistle and saw this man running down the hill into a Green Rambler.  I later recognized him as Lee Harvey Oswald.

When pressed for the TIMING of all these events, Roger Craig continually said, "I don't know," and "Maybe" and "It might have been."  So, IMHO, to try to hold Roger Craig to his guesses isn't quite fair.  We should ask if the events listed above could have been accomplished in 3 minutes.  That's my current estimate.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

First, Oswald had no guarantees that he would avoid all DPD policemen -- after all, he just had a brush with Officer Baker, pistol in hand.

But Oswald sailed through that smoothly -- Oswald was a smooth operator; he was cool, calm and collected -- but still very shrewd.  IMHO he would have used the closest exist with the fewest people -- namely -- one of the back exits.

Yep, he had just had a brush with Officer Baker, but it has to be said that Truly was there to vouch for him aswell.

Just for purposes of clarification,

From the WC testimony of Baker,

Representative BOGGS -When you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?
Mr. BAKER - It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.
Representative BOGGS -Was he calm and collected?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.

From the WC testimony of Truly,

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any expression on his face? Or weren't you paying attention?
Mr. TRULY. He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face.

The testimony of Baker and Truly match very well. The only real difference there is Truly mentioning that Oswald might have been a bit startled, but really that does sound like he says that only because he feels that is how he would feel if he was Oswald...

How different would it have played out had Truly not been there to vouch for him? It would be truly speculative to even hazard a guess...

Anyway, yeah, calm and collected... and I would agree with very shrewd too.

Funnily enough though, I would say it was that same shrewdness that makes me think Oswald would have left via the front as, although it wasn't the closest exit and there would be more people there, he was shrewd enough to think he would be more likely to 'sneak' past any Police there with others around than he would if he left via a route that there may have been only one police there.

For now, it's not overly important whether Oswald actually left from the front or from the back, what is more relevant is the 'timings' of what Craig's claims are...

26 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

As for the TIMING of Roger Craig, and his "14 or 15" minutes before he heard the whistle that caused him to look up to see Oswald running down the GN hill and into a Green Nash Rambler -- I will qualify this along with the TIMING of Billy Lovelady and Vickie Adams -- very subjective.

Yes, very subjective indeed.

* My personal opinion at this time is that the Lovelady and Adams 'seeing' each other happened approx. 3 minutes after the shots, which would entail (in simplistic terms) Adams testimony being underplayed by 1 minutes and Lovelady's testimony confusing (due to poor questioning/poor understanding) 3 minutes to leave the steps with 3 mintues for his entire journey - just stating that here for purposes of clarification.

32 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

When pressed for the TIMING of all these events, Roger Craig continually said, "I don't know," and "Maybe" and "It might have been."  So, IMHO, to try to hold Roger Craig to his guesses isn't quite fair.  We should ask if the following events could have been accomplished in 3 minutes.  That's my current estimate.

I agree that Craig's timing is not going to be exact, as you said he often said 'I don't know', 'maybe' and 'it might have been'. Even with that consideration though could the thought of it being 15 minutes really be an error for what happened in 3 minutes?

*I presume you mention 3 minutes there because you think that fits in with the time that Oswald left the building?

I'm just about to go and have another look at Craig's testimony to see what else can be drawn from it in terms of the timing, but in the meantime, just wanted to mention a slight problem with your point number 6...

38 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

6. Nobody had sealed off the TSBD by this time.

Mr. BELIN - At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off in entrance or the building---the School Book Depository Building---or not.
Mr. CRAIG - No; no. I didn't notice that.
Mr. BELIN - You didn't notice that?
Mr. CRAIG - No,

It could well have been 'sealed off' by that time, it's just Craig didn't know one way of the other...

Regards

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair,

We may be close to an agreement about where Oswald was at the moment of the JFK shooting -- I say he was in the 2nd floor kitchen finishing his lunch and getting a Coke out of the machine.  As little as 75 seconds later, he was facing Roy Truly and Officer Baker with a pistol pointed at his chest -- his Coke bottle still in his hand.

I also agree that I have no firm facts telling me if Oswald left the TSBD by the front door or by a rear exit.  This is only guesswork so far.  Prayer-Man still might be Oswald.

I also agree with your interpretation -- Roger Craig did not notice any DPD cops sealing off the TSBD in those early minutes.  It is only my surmise that if there were DPD cops hastily sealing off the TSBD building, that Roger Craig would have noticed it -- he was right there at the Grassy Knoll, with his eyes wide open.

I still maintain that Deputy Roger Craig's estimate of "14-15 minutes" before he saw Oswald leave the TSBD and run into a Green Nash Rambler is way off base.  By that time the TSBD really was sealed off.   It took the DPD a full 10 minutes to get it through their heads that nobody found anybody at the Grassy Knoll parking lot (except other DPD cops) so they had little choice but to seal off the TSBD.

Within those 10 minutes the TSBD was sealed off.  Vickie Adams herself said that when she tried to re-enter the TSBD front door, it had already been sealed off -- only 5 minutes after the JFK shooting.  Now, her time estimates are too short (just as Roger Craig's are too long).  However, we have another half-dozen WC eye-witnesses who can give us better estimates of the exact time when the TSBD was officially sealed off.

 Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 20, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, I think we agree on a few things, but there are still things we disagree on. That's ok though, always happy to discuss things with you.

28 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

I still maintain that Deputy Roger Craig's estimate of "14-15 minutes" before he saw Oswald leave the TSBD and run into a Green Nash Rambler is way off base.  By that time the TSBD really was sealed off.   It took the DPD a full 10 minutes to get it through their heads that nobody found anybody at the Grassy Knoll parking lot (except other DPD cops) so they had little choice but to seal off the TSBD.

Within those 10 minutes the TSBD was sealed off.  Vickie Adams herself said that when she tried to re-enter the TSBD front door, it had already been sealed off -- only 5 minutes after the JFK shooting.  Now, her time estimates are too short (just as Roger Craig's are too long).  However, we have another half-dozen WC eye-witnesses who can give us better estimates of the exact time when the TSBD was officially sealed off.

From the testimony of Adams;

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.
Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Not particularly 'sealed-off' then if she was allowed back in. lol

I think it would be of interest to look at the other WC eye-witnesses to see if we can put a better time on when it was officially sealed off... (although, I suppose it will end up coming down, alas, to what the definition of 'sealed off' is)...

I think if it was possible to nail down the time that Adams re-entered the building then at least we would know that at that time there was one officer on the steps stopping (not really though) people from getting in or out!

Anyroads,

From reading through the testimony of Craig, I would say he comes across as quite reliable when it comes to his timings. So yeah whilst there has to be leeway of course, my thinking is that it is not going to be that much less from what he said (14-15 minutes after the shots heard the whistle).

Of course, it has to be noted that Craig didn't see the 'oswald figure' run out of the TSBD (either front or back) but said he saw him run from the direction of. There is a chance that whoever he saw either came from somewhere else or came from within the TSBD but had already left before it was sealed off and had just been 'hanging around' outside - that doesn't explain the running though I suppose but there could be any number of reasons for him running...

Just to go back to the 'sealing off' part. In Craig's testimony, he mentions an officer standing guard at the door with a shotgun and also several officers crowded around...

Mr. CRAIG - Well, then---uh, I went back up to the front of the School Book Depository---rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it.
Mr. BELIN - How long would this have been after the shots were fired?
Mr. CRAIG - I'd say nearly 20 minutes.

I think cross referencing with others could certainly help with tying down a decent timeline for everyone. Going to be a difficult task to do so. Where to start? Argh. lol

What is the name again of the 'reporter' who (allegedly) was told where the phone was by Oswald just before he left the building?

Regards

[Michael Clark]

Oswald may very well have been hanging around inside or outside or both, and had some freedom of movement during that 15-20 minutes. He had already been cleared by Truly to officer Baker and he had directed another officer to a phone. The "he's alright" might have gone around a few times between officers as things were tightened-up and sorted out. He only drew attention to himself by the fact that he turned-up missing at some point, when Truly or Shelly identified him as the only missing employee,

Edited January 20, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair,

Just because Vickie Adams was allowed back into the TSBD by a DPD cop who was turning people away, doesn't allow us to conclude that the TSBD was free and clear to come and go.  

The front door was being guarded by a DPD cop, and Vickie Adams didn't offer any more details, and WC attorney Belin didn't ask any more questions about it.  There's not enough detail -- yet we do know the front door was being guarded by at least one DPD cop at the point when Vickie Adams wanted to get back in.   

What is really needed at this point is a more solid time-table to estimate the exact minute when the TSBD was sealed off, officially.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair

(For some reason, I can't get the "Quote" feature to work at the moment.)

Anyway -- Pierce Allman is the name of the cub reporter who claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald pointed the way to the TSBD telephone to him as he ran into the TSBD within seconds of the JFK shooting.  

The trouble with Pierce Allman is that he reported this THREE FULL WEEKS after the JFK shooting.  This increases the chances that his was just one more case of mistaken identity.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

OK, since I asked for a more precise timing of sealing off the TSBD, I will kick this off.  My first count is fourteen Dallas Police and Sheriff Deputy officers who can give us precise timing figures regarding the moment when the TSBD was first sealed off. 

*** The first, and perhaps most important DPD officer to give us the timing of the sealing off of the TSBD was on foot patrol at Dealey Plaza, namely, DPD Inspector Sawyer.   I am paraphrasing from their WC testimony:

1. DPD Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer said:  I was on duty with crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.  Around 12:30, we heard shots.  Chief Curry broadcasted to get his men to the top of the underpass.  Then Sheriff Decker broadcast, “That might take too long, put all of my men there until Homicide gets there.”  Around 12:34 the DPD Radio dispatcher said a passerby identified the TSBD as the source of the shots.  So I sped to the TSBD. and parked my car in front of the main entrance, and some officers there told me they thought some shots came from the top floors.  Then an employee and two officers took me to the top floor.  This was about 12:37pm.  We looked around but found nothing.  Then I came back downstairs with my two men to ensure the building was sealed off properly.  I posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.  I also had Sergeant Harkness ensure the rear entrances were covered; they already were, but I said double-check.  There were already officers out front, but I gave official orders that nobody was to go in or out without full screening.  Sergeant Harkness soon told me that he had the building sealed off.  That would have been about 12:40pm.  Then I set up a Command Post out front.  Now, at 12:43 I called the DPD dispatcher and said: “We need more manpower down here at the TSBD; tell those on Main Street to come here.”  Then the DPD dispatcher reported: “The wanted person is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester.”  Then the DPD dispatcher at 12:44 reported: “Attention all squads, no further information at this time.”  Then, at 1:12 the DPD dispatcher reported: “We have found empty rifle hulls on the 5th floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time.”

*** There is our time-frame -- the TSBD was officially sealed off at 12:40 PM.  The next five witnesses were motorcycle riders in the JFK motorcade.  They do not contradict Sawyer.  I am still paraphrasing here:

2. DPD Officer F.M. Turner said:  I followed the JFK limo to Parkland Hospital, and then Chief Curry sent Chief Lumpkin and me back to Dealey Plaza at about 12:45.  By the time we got there, there were plenty of policemen up around and through the TSBD, so I stayed on the 1st floor with Chief Lumpkin.

3. DPD Officer Buddy Brewer said: I was on a motorcycle ahead of the lead car.  Immediately after the assassination I directed traffic so that the motorcade could speed to Parkland.  At about 12:40, I joined many other policemen at the TSBD building.  I was there when they found the rifle. 

4. DPD Officer Bobby Hargis said:  I was on a motorcycle to the left rear of JFK’s limo.  I saw both officials get shot.  I saw the JFK head shot, and I myself was splattered with flesh and blood.  I parked a minute to just figure out what happened.  People were running in panic, but I didn’t see anybody suspicious.  So I drove through the underpass to find somebody suspicious, and I didn’t find one, so I returned to the TSBD where policemen were starting to circle and seal off.  I guarded the southwest TSBD until I was relieved and then I returned to HQ to give my statement and wash myself off.

5. DPD Officer Marrion Baker:  I was on a motorcycle behind the LBJ limo.  I was on Houston Street when I heard the shots, and I was pretty certain the shots came from the roof of the TSBD building, so I sped to the front door and parked at the curb, and ran inside.  I demanded to know where the elevators were, and Roy Truly came up to help me.  I think it was no more than two minutes after the JFK assassination that we were on the 2nd floor when I saw Lee Oswald, and I shouted, “Hey, you!  Come here!”  Oswald saw me and my gun and he came walking cool and calm.  I asked Roy Truly, “Do you know this man?” and Truly said, “Yes, he works here.”  So, without another word we kept trotting up the stairs to the roof.  I searched all around roof.  I figure my whole TSBD search took about 15 minutes.  On our way down I saw Lieutenant Cunningham just coming up.

6. DPD Officer Clyde Haygood:  I was on the motorcycle  behind the 16th car.  When I arrived at the Grassy Knoll area, I saw many people running up there, and so I tried to run my cycle up the ramp, but it was too steep, so I just left my cycle on the curb and ran up the Grassy Knoll.  I looked behind the fence there, and saw a dozen policemen already there, looking in cars, looking through bushes, and so on.  They weren’t finding anything.  I thought that the TSBD was also a possible crime scene, so I called HQ and advised sealing off the TSBD as soon as possible.  
 
*** The next two Dallas officers were Sheriff’s Deputies.  They were not assigned any duties that day, but after the shooting, Sheriff Bill Decker ordered all his men to the Grassy Knoll area, so several of them just ran over there.  They do not overtly contradict the timing of Inspector Sawyer.  I am still paraphrasing:

7. Deputy Luke Mooney:  I was standing out on Houston Street.  At about 12:30pm I heard shots, and I personally believed they came from the Grassy Knoll, so me and Buddy Walthers ran there and jumped the picket fence.  It was no more than a one-minute dash.  When we arrived we saw only DPD officers there.  It was only a matter of minutes later that we got orders to search the TSBD.  So we did.  I was the first one to see the spent rifle shells.  That was about 1pm.  

8. Deputy Buddy Walthers:  I was standing out on Main and Houston with other Deputies when we heard the shots.  Me and many Deputies ran across Houston and then ran up the Grassy Knoll.  We saw only DPD officers there.   I looked across the street and saw something red by the south curb of Elm Street – a medical student picked it up – it was a piece of JFK’s head.  Then another man came up to me with a bleeding cheek, and he said he was nicked by a bullet at the overpass.  I walked over to where he was standing, and I saw that a bullet had chipped the concrete.  That’s when I decided that the shots had to come from either the TSBD or the DalTex building.  I told everybody to search the TSBD, and that why everybody started to search the TSBD.  

*** The next Dallas officer was Homicide Captain Will Fritz, who only arrived after the building was sealed off – but he gives us an exact time to work with.   I am still paraphrasing:

9. DPD Captain Will Fritz said: Over the DPD radio we heard that police were gathering at the TSBD, so we headed there.  We arrived exactly at 12:58.

*** The next four DPD officers were on foot patrol at Dealey Plaza.  I am still paraphrasing:

10.  DPD Officer Welcome Barnett said:  I was on Elm, directly in front of the TSBD.  I saw nothing unusual until 12:30 when I heard the shots, and I thought they came from the top of the TSBD building.  I figured the shooter would run down the fire escape, so I ran to the back of the building at Houston, and watched the back door and the fire escape.  All I could see was DPD police searching cars in the parking lot behind the picket fence.  I watched the back door and the fire escape for maybe 3 minutes, and about 12:33 Sergeant Howard ordered me to the front of the building to tell him the name printed on the door.  So I ran to do that.  At that time, I saw people freely coming out and going into the TSBD.  I ran back to Sergeant Howard to tell him the name of the building, and I said we should seal off the building.  

11. DPD Officer Joe Smith said:  I was on foot patrol at Elm and Houston.  I didn’t see anything suspicious.  After the shooting, a lady shouted to me, “They shot him from those bushes!”  So, I ran to the Grassy Knoll area to look around.  I saw a man in plain clothes and I stopped him and he calmly pulled out his Secret Service card and I let him go.  I found nothing after a half-hour of searching.  At 1pm I was assigned to the TSBD, to screen ID’s of people coming in and going out.   

12. Sergeant D.V. Harkness said:  I was on foot patrol at the corner of Main on the west side of Houston.  After the shots I drove my motorcycle to the TSBD and talked with young Amos Euins, who said he saw a rifle sticking out of the TSBD window.  Within five minutes I was systematically sending TSBD bystander witnesses to the Sheriff’s offices to get their statements recorded.
  
13. C.T. Walker:  I was stationed out at the 10th Street Fire Station in Oak Cliff.  At 12:50 I joined the team at the TSDB front steps screening IDs in and out.  

*** Finally, a personnel desk officer gave us a time-figure for the TSBD sealing off.  I am still paraphrasing:    

14. Sergeant Gerald Hill:  I was at my desk in the Personnel office of the DPD at City Hall and we heard about the shooting over police radio.  By 12:45 we heard Inspector Sawyer call for DPD officers to congregate at the TSBD so my boss, Captain Westbrook, allowed me, Joe Fields, Jim Valentine and Jim Well to drive there.  At 12:58 we met Inspector Sawyer at the door, and then we saw Captain Fritz and his men arrive.

All of this is grist for the mill, but it’s a starting point.   It appears that we have a hard figure in sworn WC testimony by DPD Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer, that by 12:40 PM, ten minutes after the JFK assassination, the TSBD was officially sealed off.   No other eye-witnesses directly contradict Sawyer's TIMING.   A few others demanded credit for the idea of sealing off the TSBD (e.g. Buddy Walthers), but Inspector Sawyer outranks them.

In conclusion, if this preliminary analysis is correct, then no matter what door that Lee Harvey Oswald used to exit the TSBD, he had to do it before 12:40 PM.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo