Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

On 2/7/2017 at 8:01 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I too hope that you are wrong, Kirk. But I'm pretty sure you are right.

I feel that CIA elements who are in-the-know are committed to keeping the coup d'etat covered up... forever. Because disclosure of the CIA's participation in the assassination would prove disastrous to the organization.

Sandy

With all the blows to the head that the CIA has taken in the past decade, it seems to me that  a scandal that occurred 50 years ago would not matter much.

Paul,

A scandal is one thing. The assassination of a U.S. president is quite another.

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/14/2013 at 2:22 AM, William Kelly said:

Is this a photo of Oswald leaving the TSBD?

And this sequence:

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

BK

I don't know if this has been addressed before, but on that video Bill provided, from the 5:17 mark to 5:30, that sure looks like Oswald to me.

 

Steve Thomas

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't know if this has been addressed before, but on that video Bill provided, from the 5:17 mark to 5:30, that sure looks like Oswald to me.

 

Steve Thomas

Often times a clip is clearer if seen at regular speed instead of inching it along .... can someone show the alleged images of the Oswald looking fellow at their normal speed (possibly looped) ?  I question whether the man is wearing a high shirt collared shirt and suit jacket.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't know if this has been addressed before, but on that video Bill provided, from the 5:17 mark to 5:30, that sure looks like Oswald to me.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

After you posted this I watched that clip thirty times, to see what you're seeing.

It doesn't look close enough to LHO to me.   The forehead isn't high enough, and the nose isn't long enough, IMHO.  He is the right height, the right weight, and has receding hair on his left forehead -- so that made me look closer and closer.   But there are too many German and Irish guys who match that description -- it could be anybody.

The forehead and nose are a mismatch, IMHO.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:11 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul,

A scandal is one thing. The assassination of a U.S. president is quite another.

Sandy,

After 50 years of the JFK CT Community loudly banging the drum, claiming that the CIA killed JFK -- including a blockbuster movie by Oliver Stone in 1992 -- it would certainly not come as a surprise to Americans.   It would not be shocking.

What WOULD be shocking, on the other hand, is the idea that the Dallas Police killed JFK -- especially hearing that J.D. Tippit was inside the plot.   This would be a reversal of urban legend, and the CT Community (with rare exceptions) never saw this coming.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Bill Miller]

On 2/9/2017 at 9:13 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Steve,

After you posted this I watched that clip thirty times, to see what you're seeing.

It doesn't look close enough to LHO to me.   The forehead isn't high enough, and the nose isn't long enough, IMHO.  He is the right height, the right weight, and has receding hair on his left forehead -- so that made me look closer and closer.   But there are too many German and Irish guys who match that description -- it could be anybody.

The forehead and nose are a mismatch, IMHO.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 Interesting that Buell Frazier said in his "History Matters" interview that he didn't see Lee Oswald outside until Oswald was crossing east over Houston and then south to cross Elm Street before losing track of him in the crowd when Buell turned away momentarily. I believe he speculated that Oswald left by the rear of the building.

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:47 AM, Bill Miller said:

 Interesting that Buell Frazier said in his "History Matters" interview that he didn't see Lee Oswald outside until Oswald was crossing east over Houston and then south to cross Elm Street before losing track of him in the crowd when Buell turned away momentarily. I believe he speculated that Oswald left by the rear of the building.

Bill,

It makes most sense to me that LHO left by one of the rear exits of the TSBD.   The main reason that people continue to seek LHO at the front of the TSBD is that they still believe the hogwash dished out by Captain Will Fritz and his fellow JFK conspirators.  They told us what LHO's last words allegedly were -- and those claims are riddled with lies.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

This is a letter from a respected journalist, who met Bill Shelley.......

 

"[The] question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the JFK assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.

 

For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.

 

Hope this information sheds a little light for you."

 

Seems to answer the question of Bill Shelley being shorter than Lovelady.

[Michael Clark]

42 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

.............

For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.

 

Hope this information sheds a little light for you."

 

Seems to answer the question of Bill Shelley being shorter than Lovelady.

 

From http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/5142-operation-mockingbird/

 

 

"The Covert Use of Books and Publishing Houses

The Committee has found that the Central Intelligence Agency attaches a particular importance to book publishing activities as a form of covert propaganda. A former officer in the Clandestine Service stated that books are "the most important weapon of strategic (long-range) propaganda." Prior to 1967, the Central Intelligence Agency sponsored, subsidized, or produced over 1,000 books; approximately 25 percent of them in English. In 1967 alone, the CIA published or subsidized over 200 books, ranging from books on African safaris and wildlife to translations of Machiavelli's The Prince into Swahili and works of T. S. Eliot into Russian, to a competitor to Mao's little red book, which was entitled Quotations from Chairman Liu.

The Committee found that an important number of the books actually produced by the Central Intelligence Agency were reviewed and marketed in the United States:

* A book about a young student from a developing country who had studied in a communist country was described by the CIA as "developed by (two areas divisions) and, produced by the Domestic Operations Division... and has had a high impact in the United States as well as in the (foreign area) market." This book, which was produced by the European outlet of a United States publishing house was published in condensed form in two major U.S. magazines."

* Another CIA book, The Penkorsky Papers, was published in United States in 1965. The book was prepared and written by omitting agency assets who drew on actual case materials and publication rights to the manuscript were sold to the publisher through a trust fund which was established for the purpose.............

[Ray Mitcham]

46 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

 

From http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/5142-operation-mockingbird/

 

 

"The Covert Use of Books and Publishing Houses

The Committee has found that the Central Intelligence Agency attaches a particular importance to book publishing activities as a form of covert propaganda. A former officer in the Clandestine Service stated that books are "the most important weapon of strategic (long-range) propaganda." Prior to 1967, the Central Intelligence Agency sponsored, subsidized, or produced over 1,000 books; approximately 25 percent of them in English. In 1967 alone, the CIA published or subsidized over 200 books, ranging from books on African safaris and wildlife to translations of Machiavelli's The Prince into Swahili and works of T. S. Eliot into Russian, to a competitor to Mao's little red book, which was entitled Quotations from Chairman Liu.

The Committee found that an important number of the books actually produced by the Central Intelligence Agency were reviewed and marketed in the United States:

* A book about a young student from a developing country who had studied in a communist country was described by the CIA as "developed by (two areas divisions) and, produced by the Domestic Operations Division... and has had a high impact in the United States as well as in the (foreign area) market." This book, which was produced by the European outlet of a United States publishing house was published in condensed form in two major U.S. magazines."

* Another CIA book, The Penkorsky Papers, was published in United States in 1965. The book was prepared and written by omitting agency assets who drew on actual case materials and publication rights to the manuscript were sold to the publisher through a trust fund which was established for the purpose.............

So I take it you don't believe the journalist.

[Michael Clark]

6 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

So I take it you don't believe the journalist.

Hello Ray, I wasn't headed in that direction at all. I was reading the Mockingbird thread last night, then read your post this morning and I thought the TSBD, intelligence and Mockingbird angle were interesting, if off topic. I generally veer away from photo analysis issues since it gets so contentious. I wouldn't go near an argument about how tall someone was based on anything other than a mugshot with the ruler/tape thing in the pic.

I just bumped a thread, linked it from here with your quote, thinking it might spurn interesting analysis elsewhere. I'll spend some time on that angle and it's a plus when others chime in with their current thoughts as I read.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ray Mitcham]

17 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Hello Ray, I wasn't headed in that direction at all. I was reading the Mockingbird thread last night, then read your post this morning and I thought the TSBD, intelligence and Mockingbird angle were interesting, if off topic. I generally veer away from photo analysis issues since it gets so contentious. I wouldn't go near an argument about how tall someone was based on anything other than a mugshot with the ruler/tape thing in the pic.

I just bumped a thread, linked it from here with your quote, thinking it might spurn interesting analysis elsewhere. I'll spend some time on that angle and it's a plus when others chime in with their current thoughts as I read.

Cheers,

Michael

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:50 AM, Bill Miller said:

Often times a clip is clearer if seen at regular speed instead of inching it along .... can someone show the alleged images of the Oswald looking fellow at their normal speed (possibly looped) ?  I question whether the man is wearing a high shirt collared shirt and suit jacket.

Bill,

Yes, it seems to me from this frame that this fellow is wearing a suit and tie.  The face is very common.   It could be anybody.

Ultimately, I don't see enough evidence that anybody has identified Oswald in front of the TSBD.

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

Again -- DPD Captain Will Fritz and Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes were not eye-witnesses, and their notes from their alleged interviews of Oswald on 11/24/1963 have no chain of evidence -- they were produced only WEEKS after Oswald was killed in the custody of Fritz.  They cannot be safely relied upon to argue that Oswald was with Bill Shelley outside the TSBD.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Bill Miller]

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

I agree that Lee probably left the building out a rear exit.

 

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

I must also agree.

[Thomas Graves]

On 8/17/2013 at 6:26 PM, David Von Pein said:

In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from one of the assassination films, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

I like the speed of this one.