Andrej Stancak Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Lovelady's body height = 5'8'' - subtract 2-3'' due to his leaning towards his left ------------------------------------ Lovelady total 5'5-5'6'' Oswald's body height = 5'9'' -subtract 7.5'' to account for standing with his stretched right leg one step below Lovelady's plane ------------------------------------ Oswald total ~5'2'' (relative to Lovelady) The difference is roughly 4'' in favor of Lovelady and therefore, Lovelady will appear as being taller than a person 5'9'' standing one step below. However, the net difference of 4'' is moderated further by the fact that Wiegman shot his film with a slight bottom-up elevation. Two objects of equal height, one of which is closer to the camera than the other, will not appear as equally tall. Thus, the ~4'' difference between Oswald and Lovelady was reduced slightly by the elevation factor. To illustrate the effect of the shooting angle on relative body heights, panel C in the picture below shows the height difference between Prayer Man and Mr. Frazier at zero elevation angle. In other panels, this height difference varies as a function of the elevation angle. The picture illustrates how misleading it can be to apply the simple 2+2=4 calculus when evaluating body heights in 3D scenes. Those who came later and would like to read about Prayer Man's body height estimates, please visit my blog, thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 PM is in the corner and cannot be there and have his left foot on a lower step because he never moves and is a half a head taller than Lovelady when Billie went down a step as demonstrated in the Gif animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Simone Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Bill Miller said: PM is in the corner and cannot be there and have his left foot on a lower step because he never moves and is a half a head taller than Lovelady when Billie went down a step as demonstrated in the Gif animation. I was going to say the same thing about PM standing more towards the corner and in the shadows (attributable to your earlier explanation to me he he), but Andrej's post is still astounding. If PM was standing on the step, he's be out of the shadows or more so, no? (If only that was the case to help us positively I.D. him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Simone Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Bill Miller said: Someone here brought to my attention the following statement by a guy named Doyle - " ............ Miller has now stolen my height argument without attribution ................. over on the Education Forum with it. That's pretty dirty and dishonest." For the record - I do not know "Doyle", nor am I aware of his thoughts on the JFK assassination. If he has said the same thing as I, then all I can say is that we agree that PM is too short to be Oswald. Until coming back to the ED forum - I had never heard of Prayer Man. The equation I used in my inquiry was simple ....... If Prayer Man = Oswald, then Prayer Man should be taller than Lovelady when both are standing on the landing atop of the stairs leading into the TSBD. I then laid out how I reached my conclusion. At best - my conclusion may have been the same as someone named Doyle and counless other researchers who have looked into this matter. I see no stroke of genius on my part in the way I approached this. It was as simple as checking if 2 + 2 = 4 - then 4 - 2 = 2. I also don't know the name of the first person was who ever came up with this method of checking one's work, but I am reasonably certain that it was established long before Mr. Doyle was born. I can say there were three JFK Assassination researchers who I sought information from so to apply the method I chose to use and none of them were named Doyle. I will add that there were two other things that I looked at in this inquiry and one was the hairline on the right side of PM's head and the physical appearance of of him compared to Lee Oswald on the day of the assassination. I don't know if Mr. Doyle looked at this as well, nor do I know who was the first investigator on record who ever thought to compare physical appearances of suspects to one another. So I wish to say thanks to all those people who assisted me which would include the person who typed the report that detailed Lovelady's height - the individuals who took the photos of Oswald's measured height - those researchers who supplied me with the information I had requested - the individual who built the laptop I used to type my posting - the person(s) who created the software for me to apply images to my post - the individual who came up with the method on how to check one's work - and all those who are responsible for there being a forum where I and others can work together on these various issues. And last but not least - I wish to give credit to any and all petty glory seekers who I was not aware of that feel they deserve credit for any findings mirroring their own. Unbelievable. (You did good research btw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Simone Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Bill Miller said: My use of Occams Razor applied to the single question as to whether Oswald was standing next to Frazier or not around the time of the shooting. I had two choices - one was to believe Frazier when he said he had not seen Lee during the parade because Lee wasn't really standing outside the main entrance to the TSBD beside him or Frazier didn't mention seeing Lee outside the main entrance to the TSBD because he was immediately intimidated/threatened by sinister individuals who not only got to him, but others as well, to frame Lee as Kennedy's killer. I found that the simplest of the two competing theories made more sense than believing that so many witnesses conspired to frame an innocent man while not caring that the real killer(s) of the President went free. Technically-speaking, Occam's Razor is a heuristic tool for settling on an appropriate hypothesis between competing choices for a given prediction. Prayer Man vs. Someone Else involves two predictions or occurrences, so the debate doesn't fit the strict definition. However, you're still applying sound logic to eliminate one of the choices and I think that involves that Rule of Parsimony more so than OR. Not saying you're thinking is wrong. The loose or evolved definition of Occam's Razor is what you're referring to. (Sorry for my philosophical O.R. rant but I've seen it quoted too often to rationalize an argument as superior when it's not necessarily the case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) Occams Razor to me and many others who I have heard and read using the term is telling us that the solution is most often the simplest one and not one that has to be complicated. In the case of Prayer Man being LHO - one could find that had Oswald been standing next to Frazier - Molina - Shelley - Lovelady - etc., that any one or all of them would have said so regardless if Lee was later said to have been involved in some way or another with the shooting of the President before entertaining that so many witnesses decided to lie about his whereabouts so to become involved in a plot to frame him as the assassin who killed the President. And how can I say this with such confidence one may ask? I say this because had Lee Oswald been standing with fellow workers who knew him and some photograph or film became known in the days, weeks, and months following the assassination that proved he was standing there as Prayer Man .... anyone who withheld that information would be looking at a list of federal charges because no one would believe that those witness all forgot that Lee was standing there with them. That would have been all it took to become seen as part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President by conspiring to mislead a federal investigation with an effort to frame someone as the shooter so to allow the real gunman to go free. One image whether it been a still photo or a movie showing Oswald anywhere but on the 6th floor during the shooting - the alleged mass intimidation plot would become exposed to the point there wouldn't have been enough jail cells in Dallas to have housed everyone. That would have been as reckless as having the gunmen use machine guns when the plan was to blame the murder on one man with a bolt action rifle and only four shells. Those who were involved in the assassination and cover-up had to be careful to not overplay their hand or else a whole house of cards would have collapsed to the likes that no one ever imagined. I believe before any of that happened - someone else would have gotten the blame for JFK's murder. Edited April 12, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 12 hours ago, Bill Miller said: PM is in the corner and cannot be there and have his left foot on a lower step because he never moves and is a half a head taller than Lovelady when Billie went down a step as demonstrated in the Gif animation. The GIF with two snapshots in page 213 shows Prayer Man being smaller when Mr. Lovelady is on the top landing, and taller when Mr. Lovelady steps down one step. This is fully consistent with one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory. Prayer Man is close to the western wall but not that backwards to stand at the glass door. Should he stand right in the corner, his right elbow would be too far from the brick column in front of the top landing. Further, if standing in the corner close to the glass door, there would be no sun reflections from the back of Prayer Man's hand (Darnell) or from the object held by Prayer Man in his right hand (Wiegman). The top landing was only about three feet deep. If one stands with one foot on the top landing, he or she already covers a large part of the depth of the top landing. The landmarks to observe when positioning Prayer Man in the doorway were also described in my April 19, 2016 blog post at thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 45 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: The GIF with two snapshots in page 213 shows Prayer Man being smaller when Mr. Lovelady is on the top landing, and taller when Mr. Lovelady steps down one step. This is fully consistent with one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory. Althought the GIF does indeed show PM being shorter when BL is on the top landing and taller when BL steps down one step... I am not seeing how that is fully consistent with 'one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory' (with PM being 5ft 9), and the reason I say I am not seeing how that is fully consistent is because if it were then, in overly simplistic terms, with BL being 5ft 8, for PM to be 5ft 9 and in a 'one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory' then when BL is on the top landing he should appear to be 6 inches taller than PM and then when he steps down one step he should appear to be 1 inch taller than PM... ... from looking at the gif (below) it does not look like BL is 6 inches taller when on the top landing and it does not look like he is only 1 inch shorter when he steps down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Simone Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Alistair, why would 5'-8" BL be 6" taller on the landing if PM could be a 5'-9" LHO on that landing too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Simone Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 9 hours ago, Bill Miller said: Occams Razor to me and many others who I have heard and read using the term is telling us that the solution is most often the simplest one and not one that has to be complicated. In the case of Prayer Man being LHO - one could find that had Oswald been standing next to Frazier - Molina - Shelley - Lovelady - etc., that any one or all of them would have said so regardless if Lee was later said to have been involved in some way or another with the shooting of the President before entertaining that so many witnesses decided to lie about his whereabouts so to become involved in a plot to frame him as the assassin who killed the President. And how can I say this with such confidence one may ask? I say this because had Lee Oswald been standing with fellow workers who knew him and some photograph or film became known in the days, weeks, and months following the assassination that proved he was standing there as Prayer Man .... anyone who withheld that information would be looking at a list of federal charges because no one would believe that those witness all forgot that Lee was standing there with them. That would have been all it took to become seen as part of a conspiracy to assassinate the President by conspiring to mislead a federal investigation with an effort to frame someone as the shooter so to allow the real gunman to go free. One image whether it been a still photo or a movie showing Oswald anywhere but on the 6th floor during the shooting - the alleged mass intimidation plot would become exposed to the point there wouldn't have been enough jail cells in Dallas to have housed everyone. That would have been as reckless as having the gunmen use machine guns when the plan was to blame the murder on one man with a bolt action rifle and only four shells. Those who were involved in the assassination and cover-up had to be careful to not overplay their hand or else a whole house of cards would have collapsed to the likes that no one ever imagined. I believe before any of that happened - someone else would have gotten the blame for JFK's murder. It's a mystery why nobody said they saw him out front. Is there any possibility that Oswald was out in front but sometime after the assassination, such that nobody made a fuss about it? IOW, not at 12:30 when the shots rang out but soon thereafter. Could Oswald have meant that "out with Bill Shelley", meant moments after the assassination? Didn't Oswald also bump into a news reporter who was looking for a phone, as he was leaving the TSBD? You'd think people would've seen him out front then. I don't know why nobody at the JFK Lancer NID Conference asked Frazier back in 2015 who Prayer-Man was. I didn't know about Prayer Man back then, otherwise I would've asked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said: Althought the GIF does indeed show PM being shorter when BL is on the top landing and taller when BL steps down one step... I am not seeing how that is fully consistent with 'one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory' (with PM being 5ft 9), and the reason I say I am not seeing how that is fully consistent is because if it were then, in overly simplistic terms, with BL being 5ft 8, for PM to be 5ft 9 and in a 'one-foot-down-one-foot-up theory' then when BL is on the top landing he should appear to be 6 inches taller than PM and then when he steps down one step he should appear to be 1 inch taller than PM... ... from looking at the gif (below) it does not look like BL is 6 inches taller when on the top landing and it does not look like he is only 1 inch shorter when he steps down... Alistair: my post from yesterday, the one with the picture demonstrating effects of shooting angle, explains your queries. I would even add one more adjustment: Prayer Man (Oswald) stands, in my opinion, with his legs apart (one leg on the step below the top landing and therefore, his apparent body height would be a little smaller than 5'9'', maybe 5'8''. This last figure would need some modelling to verify which I think I did but forgot since I last touched the doorway models. I am afraid it is not possible to apply the known body heights of Mr. Oswald and Mr. Lovelady as fixed figures and do some simple subtractions. Your post indicates that you actually agree. The doorway is a 3D object, and factors such as perspective or elevation angle do count. Further, none of the two people in question stood perfectly straight precluding the comparisons of their body heights based on simple math calculations. The pictures are blurry, and it is sometimes even difficult to get the body heights right by drawing a line across the tops of the heads. And sometimes the line itself contributes to erroneous estimates due to miniature size of objects under study. I speak from many months of work spent on modelling the doorway and each figure in it, but am open to useful comments as it is a complicated problem in which it is easy to commit a mistake. Edited April 13, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Gerry Simone said: It's a mystery why nobody said they saw him out front. Is there any possibility that Oswald was out in front but sometime after the assassination, such that nobody made a fuss about it? IOW, not at 12:30 when the shots rang out but soon thereafter. Could Oswald have meant that "out with Bill Shelley", meant moments after the assassination? Didn't Oswald also bump into a news reporter who was looking for a phone, as he was leaving the TSBD? You'd think people would've seen him out front then. I don't know why nobody at the JFK Lancer NID Conference asked Frazier back in 2015 who Prayer-Man was. I didn't know about Prayer Man back then, otherwise I would've asked him. Gerry: your point asking why nobody said seeing lee Harvey Oswald in the doorway is a valid one. It has been discussed thoroughly in the other Prayer Man thread which has been moved to JFK Research folder but is still available for viewing. There, in page 55, you find the start of the last wave of this discussion before the thread has been moved. It culminated in discussing thoroughly the witness credibility of Mr. Frazier who should be the prime witness as far as the identity of Prayer Man is concerned since Mr. Frazier literally stared at Prayer Man in Darnell's film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) Crop from Jack White's 35mm Wiegman slide. Edited April 13, 2017 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Lovelady colorized Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 21 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: I have a problem with your cartoon landing. Having been on the landing myself on several occasions - I find it deeper than your cartoon image has it. Prayer Man is further back in the corner and couldn't be located at that location and have his right foot on the first step down from the landing. The doors open to the outside and they do not hang out over the steps when open from what I remember. See below .... There are seven steps to take before reaching the landing ... The front entrance door demonstrates just how deep the landing is ... In the cartoon model - PM is too far out from the corner so to have the appearance that he is standing with a straight leg on the first step down. However, the real world image of PM shows him backed up in the shade in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts