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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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35 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I have a problem with your cartoon landing. Having been on the landing myself on several occasions - I find it deeper than your cartoon image has it. Prayer Man is further back in the corner and couldn't be located at that location and have his right foot on the first step down from the landing. The doors open to the outside and they do not hang out over the steps when open from what I remember. See below ....

 

 

There are seven steps to take before reaching the landing ...

Image72_zpsmctsd3wr.jpg

The front entrance door demonstrates just how deep the landing is ...

952ea4fe-07d5-4c7a-b416-751bbfed13df_zps

In the cartoon model - PM is too far out from the corner so to have the appearance that he is standing with a straight leg on the first step down. However, the real world image of PM shows him backed up in the shade in my opinion.

7e1ad00a-2ce1-4f21-b272-7146526d95ad_zps

 

The door in my model can open outside without touching the central railing. Unfortunately, there is no data about the depth of the top platform as it was before the refurbishment of the doorway, therefore I have to rely on estimates which are then subsequently verified by overlaying the model with the pictures of the doorway taken from different angles.

Yet, the deeper the doorway is and the closer you place Prayer Man to the glass door, the bigger is your problem as Prayer Man's right elbow will be still further away from the brick column.  Also, should he stand right in the corner he would not hit any sun light with the back of his hand or with an object held in his right hand.

I am familiar with the photographs you posted and have used these and many other pictures while building the model.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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50 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Yet, the deeper the doorway is and the closer you place Prayer Man to the glass door, the bigger is your problem as Prayer Man's right elbow will be still further away from the brick column.  Also, should he stand right in the corner he would not hit any sun light with the back of his hand or with an object held in his right hand.

Part of the out-copping hides a portion of the wall from view.

And there is no sunlight hitting PM's hand as it takes computer generated lighting to see his hand at all.

wiegman_crop3_zpsm5f0gsin.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
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12 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

Alistair, why would 5'-8" BL be 6" taller on the landing if PM could be a 5'-9" LHO on that landing too?

You might have misunderstood what I earlier said, or maybe I didn't say it all too well...

If BL at 5ft 8 was on the landing and PM at 5ft 9 was one step lower then BL would appear to be 6" taller... If they were both on the same step, or both on the landing then PM would look 1" taller... the step being 7"

... of course, that is looking at things in a very over simplistic way. ;)

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12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 I speak from many months of work spent on modelling the doorway and each figure in it, but am open to useful comments as it is a complicated problem in which it is easy to commit a mistake.

The modelling you have done is impressive indeed. :)

Anyroads,

the stance of PM (one foot, one step down) that you have chosen is entirely supposition and is not borne out by any extant photographs, and I understand why you have chosen that height, and in terms of the comparison to Frazier's height (from the Darnell frame) then it does add up...

... I just don't think it adds up when put against the gif showing Lovelady go from the top landing down one step. Firstly because the 'body position' looks uncomparable with the stance and secondly, (no real measurements are needed and the 'perspective' and/or 'elevation angle' are somewhat negated by the close proximity of PM and BL) just from eye-balling it something doesn't (in my opinion) add up... it looks to me, again, just from eye-balling it, that BL when on the top landing looks approx. half a head taller than PM, and when he steps down one step he looks approx half a head shorter... PM's relative height doesn't seem to change...

...anigif1_zpsi4vjjlg4.gif

... I would like to see a graphic representation of that doorway with the focus on BL and then a few different alternative's in PM's height, to see which one most closely matches that gif... easier said than done of course. ;)

May I ask, what programme do you use for your 'graphics'?

Regards

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Andrej says there are no measurements of the depth of the top platform, but what has he really done to find out?  I would bet that Dale Myers who made a 3D model of the plaza will know the measurements of the landing/steps/doors/wall/etc -  and if he doesn't know them - the TSBD Museum will have them archived somewhere.

This is where Gary Mack is truly missed for he would go out of his way to get this kind of information of a researcher.

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19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Gerry:

your point asking why nobody said seeing lee Harvey Oswald in the doorway is a valid one. It has been discussed thoroughly in the other Prayer Man thread which has been moved to JFK Research folder but is still available for viewing. There, in page 55, you find the start of the last wave of this discussion before the thread has been moved. It culminated in discussing thoroughly the witness credibility of Mr. Frazier who should be the prime witness as far as the identity of Prayer Man is concerned since Mr. Frazier literally stared at Prayer Man in Darnell's film. 

 

Can someone contact him or his son?  He attended with his son (a young combat veteran if I recall from viewing that Lancer presentation DVD a few weeks ago again) who surely must use the internet.  Has Bart Kamp contacted BWF and/or his son?  Thank you for alerting me to the other thread.  I'll check it out later Andrej.

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8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

You might have misunderstood what I earlier said, or maybe I didn't say it all too well...

If BL at 5ft 8 was on the landing and PM at 5ft 9 was one step lower then BL would appear to be 6" taller... If they were both on the same step, or both on the landing then PM would look 1" taller... the step being 7"

... of course, that is looking at things in a very over simplistic way. ;)

Understood.  So it is possible that PM is halfway down that step?  Off the bat, PM looks like he's back in the corner.  With respect to the argument that we see something shiny in his hand, that doesn't necessarily negate that he's entirely in the shadows because sunlight can be indirectly shining into that entrance vestibule but deflected back off of a reflective surface.*

*(I recall those silly faked-moon landing arguments about artificial stage lights, which were debunked with simple table-top experiments, showing that an astronaut in a shiny suit can reflect sunlight even though he still might be in the shadows).

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3 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Andrej says there are no measurements of the depth of the top platform, but what has he really done to find out?  I would bet that Dale Myers who made a 3D model of the plaza will know the measurements of the landing/steps/doors/wall/etc -  and if he doesn't know them - the TSBD Museum will have them archived somewhere.

This is where Gary Mack is truly missed for he would go out of his way to get this kind of information of a researcher.

At last year's Lancer conference, Bill and Gayle Newman made a special appearance to speak to the attendees.  Moderating the discussion was the new Sixth Floor Museum Curator, Stephen Fagin.  He was all right.  You might try to email him.  Another person who has great Dealey Plaza measurements is Don Roberdeau, who might have same for the TSBD.

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Here's a bit of what the entrance looked like last November (that's me assuming the Billy Lovelady position).  It is somewhat deep behind me.

24e6gyw.jpg

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1 hour ago, Gerry Simone said:

Here's a bit of what the entrance looked like last November (that's me assuming the Billy Lovelady position).  It is somewhat deep behind me.

24e6gyw.jpg

Gerry:

the top landing has been extended many years ago. The glass door is not there as well. Anyway, thanks for posting this image which shows other aspects of the doorway clearly.

 

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5 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Andrej says there are no measurements of the depth of the top platform, but what has he really done to find out?  I would bet that Dale Myers who made a 3D model of the plaza will know the measurements of the landing/steps/doors/wall/etc -  and if he doesn't know them - the TSBD Museum will have them archived somewhere.

This is where Gary Mack is truly missed for he would go out of his way to get this kind of information of a researcher.

Actually, Bart was kind enough to share  with me his measurements of the doorway last autumn. My estimates fitted the measured dimensions with a maximum error of 2 inches. The depth of the 1963 top landing is not known. It is worthy to write to the Sixth Floor Museum if they would have this figure. However, the depth will not be far from  3'6'' (108 cm in my model), give or take an inch.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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13 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Part of the out-copping hides a portion of the wall from view.

And there is no sunlight hitting PM's hand as it takes computer generated lighting to see his hand at all.

wiegman_crop3_zpsm5f0gsin.jpg

Please see Alistair's post with the GIF and you will see the shining object in Prayer Man's hand. If not the sun reflection, the hand/object would have the same tone as the rest of Prayer Man's figure.

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9 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The modelling you have done is impressive indeed. :)

Anyroads,

the stance of PM (one foot, one step down) that you have chosen is entirely supposition and is not borne out by any extant photographs, and I understand why you have chosen that height, and in terms of the comparison to Frazier's height (from the Darnell frame) then it does add up...

... I just don't think it adds up when put against the gif showing Lovelady go from the top landing down one step. Firstly because the 'body position' looks uncomparable with the stance and secondly, (no real measurements are needed and the 'perspective' and/or 'elevation angle' are somewhat negated by the close proximity of PM and BL) just from eye-balling it something doesn't (in my opinion) add up... it looks to me, again, just from eye-balling it, that BL when on the top landing looks approx. half a head taller than PM, and when he steps down one step he looks approx half a head shorter... PM's relative height doesn't seem to change...

...anigif1_zpsi4vjjlg4.gif

... I would like to see a graphic representation of that doorway with the focus on BL and then a few different alternative's in PM's height, to see which one most closely matches that gif... easier said than done of course. ;)

May I ask, what programme do you use for your 'graphics'?

Regards

Alistair:

if you keep viewing your GIF or an individual still from this GIF for a while you may realise that Prayer Man stood  at the very front part of the top landing. Please note how close his right elbow is to the brick column. It is possible to stand with one leg on a step and have the body aligned with the front of the top landing

As far as your height estimates are concerned, Mr. Lovelady is leaning forwards while stepping down. He is also closer to the camera, and the doorway was shot from a slight bottom-up angle. The apparent height differences cannot be accounted for by comparing the ideal (maximum) body heights of these two persons.

As per further 3D pictures of Darnell's, Wiegman's and Altgens's scene, this will have to wait until I have enough time to complete. We speak about weeks of contiguous time necessary to complete the work which I do not have at this moment due to my job and family commitments.

I use different programs: Poser11, CorelDraw, CorelPaintshop, SketchuUp, and few extensions and toolboxes such as Artisan. At this moment, had I enough time, I would be finalising a high-resolution Poser11 model of Prayer Man, and importing it into Sketchup. Also, I am testing simultaneously two other scenarios besides the "one-foot-down" one: a man 5'9'' on the top landing and curled which was originally suggested by Greg Parker (I have reasons to think that the "curling" could be in Backyard Picture style), and of course the short 5'2'' person standing on the top landing. Unless all three possibilities are finished to perfection, I would not post any further screenshots from the new work. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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