Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?y=IFDccfK-RRE

[This film] begins with a man in white jacket and white hat on the back of a three wheel motorcycle being driven by a cop with a flat hat, not a helmet. Then about 1 minute we see a another two wheel motorcycle cop with helmet park and get off (not Baker). At 1:45 the camera assumes a new position - further back and you can see the three wheeler sans passenger, still moving behind a parked DPD car with a man talking into the window. As the camera pans right, it follows a man in a dark suit and hat and the door to the TSBD is visible with a man "College Boy" - Tommy calls him, standing on the top step, as the motorcycle continues to move left to right.

"College Boy" stays on the top stairs where "Prayer Man" stood earlier - there are two Dallas policeman in uniform in a huddle talking with two men in dark suits and hats (detectives?) as a third uniformed cop listens in.

[...]

BK

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Bill,

Clarification time.

When I said "College Boy," I was talking about the young man standing just to the left of the mailbox at 04:38 of this film. I wasn't talking about anyone up on the steps.

Please point out your "College Boy," who, you say, was "standing on the top step" and then "stays on the top stairs where "Prayer Man" stood earlier." I have no idea who you are talking about.

The only person I see up there in this film is a man wearing a suit and a tie.

Thank you,

--Tommy

Edited August 23, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

If Oswald is Prayer Man, then it is surely fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing for a Coca Cola would be his immediate response to the pandemonium outside and the sight of his boss and a motorcycle cop rushing onto the first floor.

If Oswald is Prayer Man, and if there was indeed an interaction between him and Marrion Baker at or near the front entrance just seconds after the shooting, then it is far from fanciful to suppose that a sudden irresistible longing on the part of the 'investigating' authorities to suppress these toxic facts would be the immediate response to the alarming claim he was making in custody.

What about Mrs. Reid, Sean? She said she saw Oswald coming out of the break room after the shooting. If Oswald is Prayer Man, and the Baker/Truly run-in with Oswald happened on the first floor, she would have to have been a xxxx, correct? If she was lying, however, one would have to wonder why she said she thought Oswald was wearing a t-shirt at the time...and not the brown shirt he was wearing when arrested, whose fibers matched the fibers found on the rifle.

Holmes was not a murder investigator, and he didn't take notes in his interview with Oswald. He was there to ask about the rifle, and NOT get Oswald to retell his story from start to finish. He may very well have got the bit about Oswald being stopped at the door from the paper quoting Hicks, and Hicks may very well have got it from someone misunderstanding what had happened between Oswald and Baker. The DPD's failure to shut down the building for minutes after the shooting was a major embarrassment, and it may have sounded better, or made more sense, to some to assume Oswald walked out the front after talking to a cop, than the truth--that the front was wide open, and that anyone--including shooters other than Oswald--could have walked out the front.

Pat, I do have serious doubts about Jeraldean Reid's testimony.

First, it is contradicted by that of Geneva Hine.

Second, it is a whopping coincidence that, of all the people to come forward on the Saturday with compelling corroboration of Roy Truly's second-floor lunchroom story, it should be the very lady who was standing with Roy Truly (her boss to whom she reported) at the time of the shooting. Quite a fluke, no?

Quite a fluke also that the other person watching the motorcade with Truly and Reid was Ochus Campbell, who is quoted as having told reporters that same day that Oswald had been seen just after the shooting on the first floor.

It also seems suspiciously pat that this lady should just so happen to spot Oswald at the very moment he was coming through the door into the office with--and Mrs. Reid noticed this!--a full coke in his hand. What a marvelous ticking of boxes for her boss's story.

Why did Mrs Reid say t-shirt only? Hard to say, but it's possible she actually did see Oswald in a white t-shirt on the second floor, but several minutes before the motorcade.

When might this have been? The following snippet in her WC testimony may give us a tantalising clue:

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls? [/size]

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. [/size]

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? [/size]

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all. [/size]

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? [/size]

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. [/size]

Mr. BELIN. All right. [/size]

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.[/size]

Did Reid see Lee Oswald there? It's hardly a stretch to suspect so, given Carolyn Arnold's claim to have seen him there just a little after that.

**

As for Holmes, I find it odd that one would trust him on Oswald's claim in custody less than one would trust Will 'Case Cinched' Fritz, the man who threatened to beat the living daylights out of Buell Wesley Frazier if he didn't cooperate.

I have no doubt that Holmes was a shady insider, but why in heaven's name would he deliberately tell the WC something so disastrous to the official story?

No, I think it's perfectly reasonable to supect that Holmes let the cat out of the bag by saying he had heard Oswald say just what Bookhout & Hosty had heard him say: I went upstairs to the coke machine, bought a coke and came on downstairs, which is where I was at the time President passed the building.

Holmes by the way doesn't just reproduce the information in those press reports quoting Ed Hicks. He adds significant detail of his own: vestibule + correct description of TSBD front lobby.

Let's also note that James Jarman told the HSCA that Billy Lovelady told him that Oswald was stopped by an officer at the front entrance and vouched for by Mr. Truly.

I have been attempting to locate the HSCA testimony of James "Junior" Jarman but have had no luck. Could you direct me to it?

It seems rather remarkable that the HSCA would not try to track down this bit of information by at least bringing Lovelady in to testify.

[Sean Murphy]

I have been attempting to locate the HSCA testimony of James "Junior" Jarman but have had no luck. Could you direct me to it?

It seems rather remarkable that the HSCA would not try to track down this bit of information by at least bringing Lovelady in to testify.

Robert, it can be found archived on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case website: http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html

The relevant section is on pages 2-3 of the Jarman transcript.

[Sean Murphy]

Further to the question as to why Jeraldean Reid would testify that Oswald was wearing a white tshirt when she saw him:

It's perhaps worth noting that her boss Roy Truly told the authorities that to the best of his recollection Oswald had worn "either a white tshirt or a light colored shirt" that day.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Sean, I am still looking for Reid's original affidavit, but I just stumbled upon this hearsay version of her story.

I promise I will keep looking for her original, day one affidavit, where she tells the same story.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

Edited August 23, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Sean Murphy]

Sean, I am still looking for Reid's original affidavit, but I just stumbled upon this hearsay version of her story.

I promise I will keep looking for her original, day one affidavit.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

Thanks, Ray.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Here is another statement from Mrs. Reid, to the FBI.

Scroll to the right and enlarge:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

I will find her original affidavit, I promise I am not making this up.

[Sean Murphy]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn

FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)

SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'

SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators

EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.

**

Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:

Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.

His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

[Robert Prudhomme]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn

FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)

SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'

SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators

EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.

**

Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:

Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.

His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

Hello Sean

It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview.

According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building.

Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there.

In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building.

It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

OK Sean, so far , so good.

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

There is plenty of evidence that he went upstairs and bought a coke AFTER the shooting,

as he himself told Will Fritz, if I recall correctly, but I respectfully submit, borrowing from my learned friend

Mr. Bugliosi, that there is not a speck, not a scintilla of evidence, that this happened

BEFORE the shooting.

It is late, and I am tired, so I will deal with your remaining points tomorrow.

Get some sleep, Sean! You are 5 hours ahead of me.

Edited August 23, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Thomas Graves]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn

FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)

SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'

SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators

EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.

**

Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:

Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.

His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

Hello Sean

It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview.

According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building.

Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there.

In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building.

It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day.

Robert,

Not trying to get you all riled up or nothin', but isn't it possible that Superintendent Truly returned to the first floor several minutes after the assassination, and that's when Norman, Jarman, and Williams saw him there?

Also, you say that N, J, and W saw the police come into the building. I think we know that Officer Baker entered the building about 40 seconds after the last shot. Do we know when other policemen started coming in? Isn't it reasonable to assume that policemen continued trickling in after Baker and after the initial "wave?"

For timing purposes, it would be nice if we knew which policemen N, J, and W saw come into the building.

--Tommy

Edited August 23, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn

FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)

SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'

SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators

EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.

**

Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:

Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.

His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

Hello Sean

It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview.

According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building.

Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there.

In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building.

It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day.

Robert,

Not trying to get you all riled up or nothin', but isn't it possible that Superintendent Truly returned to the first floor several minutes after the assassination, and that's when Norman, Jarman, and Williams saw him there?

Also, you say that N, J, and W saw the police come into the building. We seem to know that Officer Baker entered the building somewhere between 40 seconds and one-and-one-half minutes after the last shot. Do we know when the other policemen started coming in? Isn't it reasonable to assume that policemen continued coming in after the initial "wave?"

For timing purposes, it would be nice if we knew which policemen N, J, and W saw come into the building.

--Tommy

These are good questions. The best response I can think of is that Truly and Baker would have had to conduct a whirlwind search of all of the floors. Norman and his friends took their time coming down (and it is quite surprising they never met Truly and Baker either coming up or going down) but they were not THAT long in coming down.

Do you think Officer Baker would have rushed to the top of the TSBD only to spend a couple of minutes up there?

[Pat Speer]

I would like to offer a simple scenario that I believe may tell the story of what really happened between Lee Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly.

ONE: Oswald comes downstairs to lunch in the first-floor domino room at some point after noon

TWO: Several minutes before the assassination he visits the second-floor lunchroom where he buys a coke for his lunch

THREE: He brings the coke downstairs and, just as JFK is passing the building, steps out the glass door at the front entrance and takes up the Prayer Man position

FOUR: Within seconds of the last shot, Marrion Baker rushes up the front steps, revolver drawn

FIVE: He notices Oswald, who has perhaps stepped inside the door into the lobby area, and asks him 'Do you work here?'. The reason for Baker's question is not that he suspects Oswald in any way but that he is looking for someone who can point him the way to the stairs (rather as a credentials-waving man will a short time after this ask Oswald where he can find a phone)

SIX: Just as Baker is beginning to engage Oswald in this way, Roy Truly arrives and tells him, 'Yes, Officer, he works here but I am the building manager. I will show you the way upstairs'

SEVEN: Baker and Truly run off to cross the shipping floor for the rear elevators

EIGHT: This innocent incident--with its basic elements still intact (Oswald... coke... asking whether Oswald is an employee...Truly confirming)--will later that evening be transplanted up to the second floor lunchroom in a hastily contrived attempt to deprive Oswald of his clear alibi.

**

Far-fetched? I can only invite you to consider the following detail:

Marrion Baker testified before the WC that he didn't take his revolver out until he was going up the rear stairway from first to second floor.

His claim is exposed as a downright lie by the Darnell film, which shows him reaching with his right arm for his holster, taking out his revolver and pointing it straight ahead:

Hello Sean

It gets worse. I went to the site you gave me to read Jarman's HSCA interview. When I finished, I also read Harold Norman's HSCA interview.

According to Norman, him, Jarman and Williams had time to sit and ponder on the 5th floor following the last shot, run down to the west end of the building and study the scene at the railroad yard for a bit (we passed there for a couple of minutes or so), go downstairs to the 4th floor and look out the windows and chit chat there (for a bit more than a couple of minutes, by his account), and finally take the back stairs down to the 1st floor and the main entrance, where they saw the police coming into the building.

Here is the good part. He was then asked if he had seen Superintendent Truly on the 1st floor when they arrived and he replied, Yes, he did recall seeing him there.

In other words, if Oswald left the building at 12:33, it seems Truly (and presumably Baker) are still on the 1st floor AFTER Oswald left the building.

It is looking worse for the 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter by the day.

Williams said he saw Baker when he was on the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

[Pat Speer]

Here is another statement from Mrs. Reid, to the FBI.

Scroll to the right and enlarge:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do

I will find her original affidavit, I promise I am not making this up.

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0121a.htm

[Robin Unger]

Gerda Dunckel's exellent stabilized GIF

Where she has separated Groden's couch / darnell film mix into two separate films

she then stabilized the films and overlaped them ( VERY CLEVER)

Couch brakes away to the left, Darnell breaks away to the right.