Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Ray Mitcham]

23 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

 

I'm going to pick this apart a bit.... and then I'll rebuild it, taking some latitude.

 

And he didn't say what he was doing. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on.

He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

He didn't say whether he took the elevator down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. he had a coke, by all accounts

But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Upon reconstruction... with some commentary .....

"There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. The commotion is that the motorcade is arriving. The word "later"' looks to be an insertion, interpolation or forced assertion.

He had a coke with him.

"But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his supervisor came up and said, "He is one of our men." "Just as he started to identify himself" looks awkward, forced. We can't have LHO identify himself to a cop this early in the game. "He is one of our men" sounds like cop talk. I would expect to hear "he works here", or "he works for me".

The policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." and Prayer Man is born.

--------------------------------------

And now for the reconstruction and interpolation.

LHO was in the first floor lunchroom, the motorcade was late. He went up to get a coke. He could hear that the motorcade was coming, due to the commotion. He came back downstairs, and went out front, with the Coke. The assassination took place. Chaos ensues. Truly and and officer head up the steps, asking some quick quick questions. LHO identifies himself and steps aside, for a little bit.

That seems to fill the voids, Michael. Good synopsis.

[Alistair Briggs]

2 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I am saying this happened on the front steps. Fritz doesn't identify to officer, so who knows which one it is. Baker could be around the side or back of the building.

Ok, might have been a different officer. No problems there.

What kind of time after the shots are you putting on the officer/Truly encounter on the steps?

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Ray Mitcham said:

That seems to fill the voids, Michael. Good synopsis.

Thanks. I am expecting to take some hits for taking the latitude that I have. I am not sure how welcome that is, even with a disclaimer.

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ok, might have been a different officer. No problems there.

What kind of time after the shots are you putting on the officer/Truly encounter on the steps?

Alistair, I have to say that I am not inclined to drill down into the counting of seconds. I also try to avoid photo analysis. I just offered this up to be picked apart. I won't try to defend it.

[Alistair Briggs]

6 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Alistair, I have to say that I am not inclined to drill down into the counting of seconds. I also try to avoid photo analysis. I just offered this up to be picked apart. I won't try to defend it.

Not a problem about the exact time. And no need to defend it. I presumed you offered it up for consideration - and that is what I'm doing, considering it. I think you are on to something.

Couple of things that point away from the encounter occuring on the steps though, Frazier and Molina did not see any police officer on the steps at all. Either they are wrong or the encounter didn't happen on the steps...

*counter proposal,

"LHO was in the first floor lunchroom, the motorcade was late. He went up to get a coke. He could hear that the motorcade was coming, due to the commotion. He came back downstairs, and went out front, with the Coke. The assassination took place. Chaos ensues. Truly and an officer head up the steps and enter the building, Oswald/Prayer man enters the building and encounters Truly and an officer asking some quick quick questions. LHO identifies himself and steps aside, for a little bit."

That fills the 'void' of Frazier and Molina not seeing a police officer on the steps. And still has the encounter not happening on the 2nd floor and still has Prayer Man as Oswald.

Regards

 

[Bill Miller]

The long and the short of it is that Oswald said he was on the second floor when the police officer met him. Elsewhere Lee said he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Truly and Baker both said they met Oswald on the 2nd floor.

My understanding it the coke machine was on the second floor. It is possible that Oswald went down to the first floor with his coke after his meeting with Baker, but that would have been well after their meeting on the second floor.

There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever in my mind that Baker and Truly told the truth about meeting Lee on the second floor.

One witness when asked about the color clothing Lee had worn on the day of the shooting had said that Oswald wore dark/black' pants. Prayer Man seems to have a similar tone to his lower body as he does his upper body. Prayer Man not being Oswald supports why Frazier didn't mention Lee being on the landing when the President was shot.

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

At no time whatsoever did Fritz, or Holmes, or any of the 'team' claim that Oswald claimed to be out front at the time of the shots.

* Paul, keep in mind that there were different interrogations and different people there at each one. Holmes wasn't at the first interrogation, he was at the last interrogation.   

The thing is, and this is the important part, no where, and I do mean no where is it claimed that at the time of the shots Oswald claimed to be out front (with Shelley). It is and oft-repeated claim that Oswald did say that, but it is a myth, or, well, at best, a conflation... 

Here is a link that may be of interest on the subject...

https://toseekanewrworld.wordpress.com/2015/06/01/you-are-correct-he-was-outside-just-before-he-went-home/

...To test the 'veracity' of what Holmes is saying it can be cross referenced with what others are saying.

 Nope I'm not being too literal and I have looked at the gist of what you're saying and given it a lot of thought!

...Not only have you not offered up any real evidence to show that Oswald didn't say what it is claimed that he said in interrogation (it is not evidential to just say so) and that Fritz et al made it up, you then slightly moved the goalposts by having Oswald tell them the 'utterly minimal' (earlier you stated that he said nothing apart from the line about Abt) and you offer up no evidence to it (other than stating that Fritz et al made it up), but you haven't even addressed why, if Oswald said the 'utter minimal', Fritz et al would have to make anything up when they could just say that Oswald said nothing and the whole problem as you see it (their need to cover their own asses) disappears straight away.

It doesn't add up!

You keep saying that it is a 'collective fabrication' on the parts of Fritz & Company - I'm still waiting for your explanation as to why they would fabricate Oswald saying the Backyard Photos were faked?

I will be honest with you Paul, I don't think you are considering everything that it is claimed that Oswald said under interrogation, in fact I reckon you aren't aware of everything that it is claimed Oswald said in all the interrogations. I could be wrong of course, but that's how it feels when reading your posts.

There are many things throughout what it is claimed Oswald said under interrogation that would make no sense for Fritz to invent so it must be what Oswald said - the part about the BYP is just one example -  it leads to the conclusion that it is reasonable to presume that Oswald did say it (with the caveat (that I have mentioned countless times before) that as there is no recording of any of the interrogations, and because the notes were 'finalized' weeks after the fact we can't take any of it as a verbatim account. That is aximoatic. So we have to consider whether it is a 'fair' representation or not.) And giving it consideration (and looking at everything that it is claimed Oswald said) whilst it may not be 'verbatim' it is reasonable to say that it is, in all liklihood, a fair representation. 

Alistair,

By the numbers:

(1) I also include James Bookhout in his FBI affidavit (DL 89-43) in that "Team" Effort.  Bookhout says (even in the link that you supplied):

"OSWALD stated...that he thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY and thereafter went home."

(1.1) While this doesn't put LHO outside or on the TSBD steps at the time of the shot, it puts LHO outside with Bill Shelley immediately afterwards, and so implies the real plausibility. 

(2) I realize there are different interrogations of LHO and different people there at each one, from Friday through Sunday.

(2.1) I realize Holmes wasn't at the first interrogation, but he was at the last interrogation.  

(2.2) There is no conflation, Alistair; what I'm getting at is that Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels acted as a TEAM.  I regard Fritz as the leader but that is a convenience.  Hosty is the more likely leader, since he was in continual contact with General Walker, the most likely leader of the Dallas plot.  But it all happened in Fritz's office, so I use him as the place-holder.

(2.3)  It was the TEAM that gave the vague impression that LHO lied and claimed to be on the first floor during the shooting, always nearby Bill Shelley during the shooting, if not directly behind him (as Prayer Man was) or near him -- and certainly with Bill Shelley immediately afterwards.

(2.4)  The link you provided, Alistair, makes the common mistake of believing that LHO actually said any of the things that this TEAM claimed that he said.  The author of that link fails to recognize that the TEAM coordinated their efforts weeks after the event.  

(2.5) Even the scrawled, written notes of Will Fritz were faked days or weeks later -- with the help of the whole TEAM. 

(2.6) That is why, as that author notes, all their testimony agrees so well; one with the other. 

(3) When it comes to being literal about it, Alistair, you're correct -- it is nowhere claimed in so many words by this TEAM that LHO claimed that at the moment when the JFK shots were fired, that he was outside with Shelley. 

(4) Yet the implication is there when we add up their testimony.  It was part of their Big Lie of testifying as a TEAM that LHO was lying.

(5) I maintain that the WC testimony of each member of the TEAM is best analyzed by cross-referencing all their testimony.

(6) I realize -- obviously -- that it is not evidential simply to make the claim.  I am not asking for agreement based on my claim, but I'm hoping for good questions to flesh out my claim.

(7) As for my "utterly minimal" remark -- I intend that as a marker in the fight for every inch of every claim that the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM put into the mouth of LHO. 

(8) I stand by the Abt remark, as I said, because Ruth Paine herself confirmed it, and I take her testimony to be 100% true and correct in every detail.  I found no flaw in her WC testimony, after months of searching.

(9) As for the BYP, I will personally allow it, based on my theory that LHO himself created the BYP at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall with Roscoe White's help, when LHO made the Fake ID for A.J. Hidell, and rehearsed exactly what he was going to tell the police.  

(9.1)  Also, Michael Paine told Dan Rather in 1993 that he saw a BYP on April 1, 1963, and I believe Michael Paine. 

(9.2) So, although that is one claim by Will Fritz that was correctly reported, Fritz stated it as though it was LHO's lie!

(10) My theory of the collective fabrication of the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM still has energy.  I realize that I need to show the work, and not merely claim it.  I am willing to do so -- but this will take Time and relevant Questions.

(10.1)  The TEAM could not simply say that LHO said nothing -- because Dallas laws required the City Jail to transfer any prisoner to the County Jail within a narrow scope of time.  The TEAM refused to do that with LHO, because they were plotting to murder LHO.  If they said that LHO refused to talk with them for these three days -- they would have no excuse for detaining him in the City Jail for so long.  So, they had to invent a Fake Dialog.  That was a TEAM effort.  Harry Holmes cracked the model with his Mexico City remarks. 

(10.2) In fact, Alistair, I am indeed aware of everything testified by the Fritz-Holmes-Hotsy-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM -- although it has been a few weeks since I've reviewed all my notes.  It is hundreds of pages of material; even more when we add it to the WC testimony of the Dallas Deputies, dirty DPD cops, Robert Alan Surrey, Robert Klause, Bernie Weissman and General Walker.   It will take time to elucidate.

(10.3) These posts are by necessity very brief and terse, because: (10.3.1) the medium allows only medium sized posts; (10.3.2) because many of these posts here are spent in defending points already made; and (10.3.3) the number of WC pages I'm summarizing is in the several hundred, perhaps approaching a thousand. 

(11) The context of this thread is saved in this way: (11.1) the WC testimony of the TSBD workers is defended as Truth; so this makes it unlikely that Prayer Man is LHO; (11.2) the WC testimony of Officer Baker is defended as Truth; so this makes it likely that the 2nd floor encounter with LHO is the Truth; and (11.3) the WC testimony of many DPD officers will be shown to cooperate with the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM, and so will be shown to be perjury.

(12) To show this in detail will take more time -- and I'm hoping for the best questions to smoothly demonstrate my point which I have derived after years of studying the thousands of pages of WC volumes. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, as strange as it may sound, we aren't that far away from each other - maybe just looking at if from different perspectives.

15 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

(11) The context of this thread is saved in this way: (11.1) the WC testimony of the TSBD workers is defended as Truth; so this make it unlikely that Prayer Man is LHO; (11.2) the WC testimony of Officer Baker is defended as Truth; so this makes it likely that the 2nd floor encounter with LHO is the Truth; ahd (11.3) the WC testimony of many DPD officers will be shown to cooperate with the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM, and so will be shown to be perjury.

The way I look at it, if a better quality clip turned up that unequivocally showed that Prayer Man is Oswald then not only is Oswald innocent of being the 6th floor shooter but also a lot of the TSBD workers testimony is totally blown out the water. As things currently stand, and as you noted, the WC testimony of the TSBD workers make it unlikely that Prayer Man is Oswald. (

Later on I'm going to knock up a chart of 'options' regarding Prayer Man.

Regards.

[Paul Trejo]

22 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul, as strange as it may sound, we aren't that far away from each other - maybe just looking at if from different perspectives.

The way I look at it, if a better quality clip turned up that unequivocally showed that Prayer Man is Oswald then not only is Oswald innocent of being the 6th floor shooter but also a lot of the TSBD workers testimony is totally blown out the water. As things currently stand, and as you noted, the WC testimony of the TSBD workers make it unlikely that Prayer Man is Oswald. (

Later on I'm going to knock up a chart of 'options' regarding Prayer Man.

Regards.

Alistair,

All good points.   Sandy's CT would be upheld if proof is found against my CT.  Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels would turn out to be the honest ones, while the TSBD workers would turn out to be the liars.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

21 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

All good points.   Sandy's CT would be upheld if proof is found against my CT.  Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels would turn out to be the honest ones, while the TSBD workers would turn out to be the liars.

Yes and no. It's slightly more complicated than that, it's not so black and white.

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Yes and no. It's slightly more complicated than that, it's not so black and white.

OK, Alistair -- that's fine.  Yet speaking in broad summaries, that's what I'll say for now -- EITHER the TSBD workers are lying, OR ELSE Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels are lying.   This is a preliminary and broad-brush point, but it's an important point as a milestone, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The long and the short of it is that Oswald said he was on the second floor when the police officer met him. Elsewhere Lee said he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Truly and Baker both said they met Oswald on the 2nd floor.

My understanding it the coke machine was on the second floor. It is possible that Oswald went down to the first floor with his coke after his meeting with Baker, but that would have been well after their meeting on the second floor.

There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever in my mind that Baker and Truly told the truth about meeting Lee on the second floor.

One witness when asked about the color clothing Lee had worn on the day of the shooting had said that Oswald wore dark/black' pants. Prayer Man seems to have a similar tone to his lower body as he does his upper body. Prayer Man not being Oswald supports why Frazier didn't mention Lee being on the landing when the President was shot.

Bill,

Once again -- and I apologize for repeating myself -- we cannot believe that "Oswald said he was on the second floor when Baker-Truly met him."   We have virtually no idea what Oswald actually said while he was in custody.

It is more likely, IMHO, that the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM claim that "Oswald said he was on the second floor," was forged from DPD affidavits from Officer Baker and Roy Truly, in an effort to make their Fake LHO dialog seem more realistic.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

OK, Alistair -- that's fine.  Yet speaking in broad summaries, that's what I'll say for now -- EITHER the TSBD workers are lying, OR ELSE Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels are lying.   This is a preliminary and broad-brush point, but it's an important point as a milestone, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

No bother

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Holmes:

"And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

--------------------------

I'm going to pick this apart a bit.... and then I'll rebuild it, taking some latitude.

---------------------------

And he didn't say what he was doing. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on.

He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

He didn't say whether he took the elevator down. testifying to nothing, so I'll delete

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. he had a coke, by all accounts

But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Upon reconstruction... with some commentary .....

"There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. The commotion is that the motorcade is arriving. The word "later"' looks to be an insertion, interpolation or forced assertion.

He had a coke with him.

"But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his supervisor came up and said, "He is one of our men." "Just as he started to identify himself" looks awkward, forced. We can't have LHO identify himself to a cop this early in the game. "He is one of our men" sounds like cop talk. I would expect to hear "he works here", or "he works for me".

The policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." and Prayer Man is born.

--------------------------------------

And now for the reconstruction and interpolation.

LHO was in the first floor lunchroom, the motorcade was late. He went up to get a coke. He could hear that the motorcade was coming, due to the commotion. He came back downstairs, and went out front, with the Coke. The assassination took place. Chaos ensues. Truly and an officer head up the steps, asking some quick quick questions. LHO identifies himself and steps aside, for a little bit.

Michael,

Many thanks for your review of the sworn WC testimony of Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes, whom I regard as one of the JFK conspirators, along with Captain Will Fritz, DPD Chief Jesse Curry, Sheriff Bill Decker, Dallas FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout, and Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels.

Your sentence by sentence analysis is interesting, so I will review some key points here, by the numbers:

(1) I agree that the "commotion" was the JFK motorcade arriving at Dealey Plaza.

(2)  I agree that the word "later," in the clause, "he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on," is "forced" because it is vague and actually testifies to nothing much.  "Later" could mean five seconds later or five minutes later.  It means nothing in-itself.

(3)   I agree that the clause, "Just as he started to identify himself," referring to LHO meeting Baker-Truly, seems "awkward and forced."  You object that it is too "early in the game."  I object that we have no idea what time frame "later" refers to.  

(4)  Clearly, however, Harry Holmes is attempting to agree with the WC testimony of Baker-Truly and the 2nd floor meeting, yet because of his clumsy way of speaking (since he is lying through his teeth), Harry Holmes fails to clarify WHEN this occurred, and on what floor this occurred.  Holmes is only certain of that part of the the Baker-Truly DPD affidavit that mentions the Coke ("things go better with Coke!").

(5) I agree with you that the clause, "He is one of our men," sounds like "cop talk."  This is because Harry Holmes is merely trying to remember the DPD affidavit testimony of Baker and Truly.  He is also trying to force these words into LHO's mouth.  Holmes is failing miserably.

(6) I agree that the way Holmes words his clumsy sentences, that it sounds like the Baker-Truly encounter with LHO occurred on the first floor, instead of the second floor.  This is used as a support for the CT of Prayer Man as LHO.   Yet I firmly reject that claim.  Instead, it should be clear by all the errors and forced connections that Harry Holmes commits, that we are looking at a fabrication in action. 

(7) I agree that Harry Holmes implies that LHO "went up to get a Coke" on the second floor, and heard the commotion about JFK arriving.

(8) I agree that Harry Holmes implies that LHO "came back downstairs, and went out front, with the Coke." 

(9) I agree that Harry Holmes implies that LHO witnessed the JFK assassination from the front steps of the TSBD.

(10) I agree that Harry Holmes implies that Truly-Baker encountered LHO there on the steps of the TSBD.  Yet I firmly reject that claim.  Instead, it should be clear by all the errors and forced connections that Harry Holmes commits, that we are looking at a fabrication in action.  That fabrication was agreed upon by the TEAM of Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels, days and WEEKS after the killing of LHO in Fritz's custody.

It was merely Harry Holmes' faulty recollection of the DPD affidavits of DPD officer Marrion Baker and TSBD superintendent Roy Truly.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Many thanks for your review of the sworn WC testimony of Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes, whom I regard as one of the JFK conspirators,

..........................

It was merely Harry Holmes' faulty recollection of the DPD affidavits of DPD officer Marrion Baker and TSBD superintendent Roy Truly.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Thanks Paul, I am glad you found it interesting.

To be sure, I don't necessarily believe anything I have implied or asserted in my analysis and reconstruction. I did detect what I felt were oddities. My interpretation and reconstruction was a quick breakdown and reshuffle. It was more of an excercise to demonstrate how it could be re-presented rather than assert how it should be re-presented.

It is, admittedly, convenient when you are working with a purported work of non-fiction that, overall, you deem to be fiction.

Rgarding liars and conspirators... In my book, nearly everyone gets a pass unless scrutinized and dealt with individually; fear and darkness of the most absolute kind were working in the background at that time.

Cheers,

Mike

Edited February 5, 2017 by Michael Clark