Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Ray Mitcham]

Andrej, what measurement are you working to for the overall length of the steps front to back.?Don't know if it is important,  but if you are making a scale version of the entrance, it probably is, the depth from the lip of the bottom step to the lip of the top step is 7'6 3/4"

[Ray Mitcham]

44 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

To my eyes Carl Jones does not appear to be looking East or West in Altgens 6 but looking straight ahead, as is Otis Williams.

I agree, Robin, The white car in Altgens is just about to turn the corner, but in Weigman's, it has already turned. I think that Altgens6  was taken earlier than the Weigmans frame. 

[Robin Unger]

Myers said that the frame shown above

Wiegman frame 015 equates to Zapruder frame Z-257

Altgens 6 is Zapruder frame Z-255

[Robin Unger]

Altgens 6 Full frame: Credit John Woods

Edited April 15, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Michael Walton]

Hi Ray - you may want to go way back on this thread.  Andre made a great 3D mock up of the steps with a character in it too.  Though I don't agree with his LHO having a step down (it doesn't look like he's doing that in the actual films) his 3D work is great. Go back in time and it's there

 

[Robin Unger]

Hughes frame.

 

In Altgens 6 we see Johnson's car and the follow up car behind it, in Hughes we can see just how close behind the follow up car the two wiegman cars were.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Jack White 35mm Wiegman slide.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Alistair Briggs]

4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Andrej, what measurement are you working to for the overall length of the steps front to back.?Don't know if it is important,  but if you are making a scale version of the entrance, it probably is, the depth from the lip of the bottom step to the lip of the top step is 7'6 3/4"

Ray, just wanted to ask a quick question for clarification...

Previously you have mentioned that the treads of each of the steps is between 12" and 12 1/8" and previously have said that the horizontal distance of the top step to the lip of the bottom step is 72 11/16"  (6ft 11/16")...

...yet there you have it as 7'6 3/4".

Am I missing something?

Kind regards.

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Robin Unger said:

Jack White 35mm Wiegman slide.

In this Wiegman's frame, Carl Jones's angle of vision appears to be consistent with his Altgens6 angle of vision. The enlarged and mildly processed view of Carl Jones (below) shows that he was actually gazing towards Houston Street in this frame. Could this be the Wiegman's candidate frame for Altgens6? I have checked Robert Groden's version of Wiegman's film, and it is actually frame 1 of the first sequence in which the film shows the depository doorway. It occurs, therefore, sooner than frame 14 or 15 which would match Z255 (Altgens6) according to Mr. Myers.

 

Should  Carl Jones maintain his gaze neither west nor east (neutral straight) as in frame 14/15, Altgens6 would not show him looking sharp east as it does. This is illustrated with a 3D simulation in which Carl Jones in the left panel stands and views straight as in W-14. The resulting figure of Carl Jones after rotating the doorway in Altgens6 perspective is shown in the right panel.

  Carl Jones: W-Frame 14                   The same after rotating to Altgens6 view

 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ray, just wanted to ask a quick question for clarification...

Previously you have mentioned that the treads of each of the steps is between 12" and 12 1/8" and previously have said that the horizontal distance of the top step to the lip of the bottom step is 72 11/16"  (6ft 11/16")...

...yet there you have it as 7'6 3/4".

Am I missing something?

Kind regards.

Don't know, Alastair. Can't remember what I said the distance was before, but I've just checked the measurements I was given, and they are as follows.

Bottom step 12 1/16"

second step 12 1/4"

third step 12 1/4"

Fourth step 11 15/16"

Fifth step 12 1/16"

Sixth step 12 3/8"

Just realised that the above figures don't add up to 7' 6 3/4".

Adds up to 6'0 11/16"

My bad. Got mixed up with my sixtieths. Used to working in metric.

 

Well picked up Alastair.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Alistair Briggs]

5 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Don't know, Alastair. Can't remember what I said the distance was before, but I've just checked the measurements I was given, and they are as follows.

Bottom step 12 1/16"

second step 12 1/4"

third step 12 1/4"

Fourth step 11 15/16"

Fifth step 12 1/16"

Sixth step 12 3/8"

Cheers Ray,

those measurements fit in quite nicely with what you said way back in April 2016 on the Prayer Person - Prayer Man thread - total of 72 inches and change, (6ft and some change)... it's just when you mentioned a few comments earlier on this thread that it was 7ft 6 and change it threw me off a bit. lol

Cheers for the clarification.

[Thomas Graves]

On 4/15/2017 at 3:41 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

This is one one of the most important points in the reconstruction of the events occurring in the doorway during the time of assassination. Would you not* mind posting the Wiegman's frame which you think would be the one corresponding to Altgens6?

Mr. Dale Myers reconstructed the time axes of different films, and assumed it was Wiegman's frame 14/15 which matched with Altgens6. However, I doubt Myers's time reconstruction at this particular point for a very simple reason: we see Carl Jones viewing east in Altgens6 but to the west in Wiegman's frame 14 or 15. Of course, the image quality of Groden's version of Wiegman's film available to me is very poor to determine the Mr. Jones's gaze axis. Anyway, I wonder what are the opinions of forum members about Carl Jones viewing towards the Triple Underpass in frame 14/15 and eastwards in Altgens6.

 

Mr. Dale K. Myers's reconstruction of Wiegman/Zapruder time alignment can be found in his document "Secret of Homicide...", page 114, downloadable at:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/report_download.html

* [a minor correction performed by an obsessive-compulsive former English teacher who just can't help himself]

Dear Mr. Andrej Stancak,

Since I'm not all "techno-geeked up" and therefore don't think in terms of milliseconds (lol) about this particular sub-subject, I'm not going to go into this with y'all in any great detail.  Suffice it to say that my "scientifically-sloppy" little theory here is based on the following evidence-based observations and assumptions:

1 )  Red-shirted Lovelady was standing next to the left wall (near his soda pop / lunch ?) in that segment of Hughes which shows the limo turning (or getting ready to turn? -- going from memory here) left onto Elm Street.

2 )  A few seconds later, as shown in the larger of the two Weigman frames in the two-frame GIF (i.e., the one with the two cars in the foreground and in which Billy is still standing upright), Lovelady has "departed from" that wall (leaving his precious soda pop / lunch unattended !?) and moved a few feet away to his left so that he can get a better view from the center hand railing (which hand railing prevented him from going even farther to his left and getting an even better view).

3 )  Still standing next to the center hand railing in the other frame of two-frame GIF, Lovelady in now leaning forward (as is Doorman-Lovelady in Altgens6), having evidently heard a shot or a shout or a scream (as, interestingly enough, has "Prayer Person" heard said shot or shout or scream as indicated by his or her lowering his-or-her camera from his-or-her face in order to better see what the heck's goin' on around him-or-her).  Having said all of that, I suppose you want to know why Lovelady decided to lean forward?  Well, although Lovelady's leaning forward probably didn't help him to see or hear any better what was goin' on down on Elm Street, I believe that it was a normal human reaction in that situation the sound of a shot or a shout or a scream, and that leaning forward like that might even have been his (unconscious?) way of "pointing out" to the other people on the steps that "Hey!  Somethin's happenin' here, what it is ain't exactly clear, could there be a man wit a gun over there?" in this particular Altgens6-correlated Weigman frame (i.e., the one without the cars in the foreground).  To answer your question in a very roundabout and scientifically-sloppy (but at least non-geeky) way.

--  Tommy

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Gerry Simone]

On 4/14/2017 at 0:50 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Gerry:

the top landing has been extended many years ago. The glass door is not there as well. Anyway, thanks for posting this image which shows other aspects of the doorway clearly.

 

I might have other pictures from previous visits.  How do you mean extended for the top landing?

[Andrej Stancak]

21 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

I might have other pictures from previous visits.  How do you mean extended for the top landing?

The current depth of the doorway does not match the one of the 1963 doorway because the door was changed and pushed back into the building during the major refurbishment works. This has extended the depth of the top platform, and the current measurement of the depth does not apply to historic photographs. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

31 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Mr. Andrej Stancak,

Since I'm not all "techno-geeked" up and therefore don't think in terms of milliseconds (lol) about this particular sub-subject, I'm not going to go into this with y'all in any great detail.  Suffice it to say that my "scientifically-sloppy" little theory here is based on the following evidence-based observations and assumptions:

1 )  Red-shirted Lovelady was standing next to the left wall (near his soda pop / lunch ?) in that segment of Hughes which shows the limo turning (or getting ready to turn? -- going from memory here) left onto Elm Street.

2 )  A few seconds later, as shown in the larger of the two Weigman frames in the two-frame GIF (i.e., the one with the two cars in the foreground and in which Billy is still standing upright), Lovelady has "departed from" that wall (leaving his precious soda pop / lunch unattended !?) and moved a few feet away to his left so that he can get a better view from the center hand railing (which hand railing prevented him from going even farther to his left and getting an even better view).

3 )  Still standing next to the center hand railing in the other frame of two-frame GIF, Lovelady in now leaning forward (as is Doorman-Lovelady in Altgens6), having evidently heard a shot or a shout or a scream (as, interestingly enough, has "Prayer Person" heard said shot or shout or scream as indicated by his or her lowering his-or-her camera from his-or-her face in order to better see what the heck's goin' on around him-or-her).  Having said all of that, I suppose you want to know why Lovelady decided to lean forward?  Well, although Lovelady's leaning forward probably didn't help him to see or hear any better what was goin' on down on Elm Street, I believe that it was a normal human reaction in that situation the sound of a shot or a shout or a scream, and that leaning forward like that might even have been his (unconscious?) way of "pointing out" to the other people on the steps that "Hey!  Somethin's happenin' here, what it is ain't exactly clear, could there be a man wit a gun over there?" in this particular Altgens6-correlated Weigman frame (i.e., the one without the cars in the foreground).  To answer your question in a very roundabout and scientifically-sloppy (but at least non-geeky) way.

--  Tommy

Thanks, Mr. Tommy, for both correcting my clumsy English and sharing with us your insights.

However: leaning forwards is not what mammals, including humans, would do in response to a startling event, such as a gun shot. The startle reaction is a primitive neural response aimed to stabilise the head upon an impact from the front. It is, therefore, associated with contractions of back and neck muscles which prevents an animal or human to fall back. You may have been thinking of an orienting response, a primitive neural response to novel stimuli, which aims to amplify the sensory input. Turning head towards the source of a novel stimulus, dilation of pupils, adjusting earlobes (e.g., in cats), and tuning the tension of tiny muscles in the ear which increase the sensitivity to sounds are all components of orienting response.

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Andrej Stancak