William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

3,170 posts in this topic

John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Bill,

Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps.

From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony.

A mystery that merits further attention.

And another good topic as the 50th approaches.

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Bill,

Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps.

From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony.

A mystery that merits further attention.

And another good topic as the 50th approaches.

How do we know that "Prayer Man" is not Billy Lovelady?

Can Lovelady be seen somewhere else in that photo/film?

--Tommy :sun

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Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

BK

Bill and Raymond,

A moderator removed the offending posted comment this morning where Prudenhomme openly admitted that he posted that I allow paid LN's to rule the other forum.

Anyway, enough of that, this issue is far more important.

Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question.

It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community.

Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum.

This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance.

Credit Gerda Dunckel

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Enjoy the thread - Link Below

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

Thanks Duncan, and Robin, and there is some good stuff there, though I am not as much interested in following Shelley as I am in the man in the doorway.

I'd also like to find a photo of the black couple on the park bench behind Zapruder. I think that's the bench in the back in the photo of the three women crying. Are there any photos of the black couple - man and women sitting on the bench or getting up or running?

And from the films of Baker running, it seems he was moving pretty fast and not taking his time, as Gary Mack has suggested, giving him 45 seconds to park his bike and get to the front door of the TSBD. It seems its more like ten seconds, as he himself said, and that whoever he is, Baker must have run right past the man in the doorway we are trying to identify, and suspect is Oswald.

BK

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Bill,

Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps.

From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony.

A mystery that merits further attention.

And another good topic as the 50th approaches.

How do we know that "Prayer Man" is not Billy Lovelady?

Can Lovelady be seen somewhere else in that photo/film?

--Tommy :sun

We know from the testimony of Billy Lovelady to WC counsel Joseph Ball. Lovelady said he was 25 steps away from the entrance when he looked back and saw Truly and the policeman (Baker) running into the building. Link below

Lovelady and Shelley left the steps to go down toward the tracks to the west of the building together. A few months ago, Gerda Dunkel posted a film clip showing figures that look like Lovelady and another man (Shelley) walking away from the steps towards the west. Unfortunately I do not have the link. EDIT: Sorry, I just saw that Duncan had already posted the link above in his post. Here it is again:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

Lovelady testimony link:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

...

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Edited by Richard Hocking

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Bill,

Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps.

From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony.

A mystery that merits further attention.

And another good topic as the 50th approaches.

Excellent work, Mr. Hocking. I really like the process of elimination you used to narrow down and eliminate the possibilities.

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From William Kelly:

"If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented."

I was on that forum for several years, and do not recall seeing this topic discussed there. This is not saying it was not discussed there, I just don't recall seeing it.

P.S. I believe this is important research you are doing and, if a name cannot be given to that figure (other than Oswald), this may be the most important research to be done in the last 50 years. Please forgive me if you believe I was attacking your work in some way.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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If this is indeed LHO at the front door of the TSBD in the moments after the assassination, then he isn't leaving the building, but is still standing there when Baker runs past him, and then he must have re-entered the building and ascended the front steps to the second floor and proceeded to the lunchroom to purchase his coke, walking past the closed lunchroom door that Baker saw him through the window.

Just a correction as the title of this thread is then misleading.

BK

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Right you are, Ray.

This is a frame from the Darnell film which shows Marrion Baker dashing to the front entrance.

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.ie/2013/08/oswald-leaving-tsbd.html

The man in the photo was in the very same spot as the shots were being fired. We know this because he can be seen right there in the Wiegman film taken just seconds earlier.

We still don't know who he is. He's not Lovelady. He's not Bill Shelley. He's not Buell Wesley Frazier.

Hi Sean,

I know we have discussed "prayer man" in previous postings, but the enhanced film clip has thrust this figure to a higher level of interest.

We know the fourteen individuals who identified themselves in testimony as being on the TSBD steps during the assassination. We can use the process of elimination to narrow down the choices of who prayer man might be:

7 women were on the steps, so we can eliminate all of them.

As you noted, we can eliminate Shelley, Lovelady and BWF.

We can also eliminate the 2 African American males

That narrows the field down to 2 men, Joe Molina and Otis Williams.

In a letter from Shirley Martin to Harold Weisberg, (7/8/67, Weisberg Archives)

(Quoting Shirley) Joe Molina claims to be the man in suit standing next to Lovelady-Oswald figure in Altgens photo.

Since prayer man appears to be wearing a shirt, that should eliminate Molina. (For myself, I have serious doubts that Molina was even on the steps. No one else in the step group identified him as being there. But that is another discussion ...)

That leaves Otis Williams. But there are also some issues with Williams. He was a "Bookkeeping supervisor" at the TSBD. Would a supervisor be wearing an unbuttoned shirt at work?

In a quote from No More Silence, by Larry Sneed, pp 117-118, Williams says:

"Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs where the warehouse elevator was which led to the 6th floor and went up to the 4th floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass ..."

This makes is highly unlikely the man in the photo is Williams.

Any photos of Otis Williams or Joe Molina would have been valuable for comparison, but from the available information, I don't believe either of them match the visible requirements of prayer man.

Thanks for your thoughts Richard.

Yes, I agree it's neither Molina nor Williams.

Incidentally Williams told Larry Sneed he had JFK's car in view until it "went behind a little wall going toward the underpass"--a vantage point not available to Prayer Man.

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Bill,

Otis Williams claimed he climbed the stairs that were next to the warehouse elevator(s). I agree with you that he could not have taken either elevator since they were both stuck on the 5th floor at that time. The important part of his quote for the current topic is that he went inside immediately after hearing the 3rd shot. If true, that means he could not have been the figure on the front steps.

From the testimony of the group on the stairs and the photographic and film evidence, I am of the opinion that "prayer man" is not any of the 14 individuals that testified they were on the steps at that time. All of the employees also testified that there were no strangers in the TSBD that day. This leads me to believe "prayer man" is an employee of the TSBD who is not included in anyone of the 14 individuals testimony.

A mystery that merits further attention.

And another good topic as the 50th approaches.

Excellent work, Mr. Hocking. I really like the process of elimination you used to narrow down and eliminate the possibilities.

Thanks Robert.

Another thought about "Prayer Man" and his resemblance to Oswald ... how many employees of the TSBD resembled LHO? We know about Lovelady, but we have sworn testimony from Lovelady and Shelley and supportive film evidence that Lovelady was gone by the time the Prayer Man appears in the film clip, bearing a resemblance to Oswald.

So who else looked like Oswald? If there was another look-alike working at the TSBD, I believe that person would have received some serious attention from the Dallas Police, possibly the press, and perhaps even the Warren Commission. If you go through the 73 employees of the TSBD and eliminate women, African Americans, and male employees that we have pictures of, the pickings are very thin for Oswald doppelgängers.

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Credit Gerda Dunckel

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Enjoy the thread - Link Below

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html

Thanks, Duncan, marvelous gif by Gerda.

And what do you know, here's Roy Truly:

WiegmanROYTRULY_zps7c2b37a9.jpg

Watch the gif closely and you see Baker actually push him out of the way.

Hello Sean

If Baker pushes Truly out of the way on his way into the TSBD, at what point do him and Truly get together? Does Baker backtrack and come back outside to meet him or does Truly follow him in?

What is fascinating me here is the split second timing that could be involved if that is Oswald in the doorway, within inches of Baker as he rushes by. In the time it would take Baker and Truly to come together, formulate a quick plan, try the elevators, discover they don't work and begin ascending the stairs to the second floor, would Oswald have time to enter the building, go directly to the stairs, climb to the second floor and buy a Coke? That is, if he did buy a Coke. That is something else that never seems to be clear.

Remember, Oswald was a skinny 24 year old. At that age, I used to take stairs three at a time, just for fun.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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That is, if he did buy a Coke. That is something else that never seems to be clear.

There is no question that he bought a coke. Page 154 of the Warren Report describes Mrs Reid meeting him seconds after the Truly/Baker encounter. Mrs Reid gave an affidavit that day, and testified before the WC, that he was carrying

a bottle of coke.

THe only question is whether he had already bought the coke when Baker encountered him.

Remember, Oswald was a skinny 24 year old. At that age, I used to take stairs three at a time, just for fun.

Good point and well worth keeping in mind.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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Since this subject may become famous,

can anyone say who was/were the first researcher(s)

to spot prayer man as an Oz lookalike?

SInce Bill Kelly has declined the Knighthood

I offered him, I would still like to confer it

on the truly deserving.

Right now, based on this thread so far,

my money is on that bearded Dubliner.

Not only did he invent Murphy's law,

he was first, it seems, to name the guy

"prayer man."

But was he first to spot the resemblance or had someone else

pointed it out and Mr. Murphy just gave the Oz lookalike the name

"prayer man.?"

BTW, Has anyone heard from Gary Mack on this subject?

I know Gary is following this thread and I am sure he is most interested.

PRAYER MAN could put Gary's shop

out of business!

And notice we have not heard a peep from Mr. Von Pein

though I know he reads the forum and I have no doubt he saw my challenge

to him earlier on this thread.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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Quote

That is, if he did buy a Coke. That is something else that never seems to be clear.

There is no question that he bought a coke. Page 154 of the Warren Report describes Mrs Reid meeting him seconds after the Truly/Baker encounter. Mrs Reid gave an affidavit that day, and testified before the WC, that he was carrying

a bottle of coke.

THe only question is whether he had already bought the coke when Baker encountered him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting. I did not know that Mrs. Reid testified to seeing a Coke in Oswald's hand, seconds after the encounter with Baker.

Didn't Baker originally note a Coke in Oswald's hand in his statement, only to cross it out? I've always thought this to be an odd thing and it is stranger yet with your revelation about Mrs. Reid's testimony and affidavit.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

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