Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

To recap where the counter-narrative I'm putting forward has led us so far:

• Oswald out front for the assassination (Prayer Man)
• Briefest of encounters with Baker as the latter was rushing into the first floor
• Oswald remained around the front entrance/lobby area
• Baker and Truly ran to the rear of the first floor and took the west elevator upstairs

There is nothing complicated in any of these real events.

All of Baker's and Truly's actions are innocent and intelligible.

We might even say that Baker's are pretty heroic.

All the complications and all the shenanigans come later, as the authorities scramble to put together a half-coherent cover story to bury the simple events they know to have taken place.

• Later that afternoon, Baker is persuaded to give a phoney affidavit report about challenging an 'employee' by the third or fourth floor rear stairway
• Later that evening or night, a new improved version is put together.
• It has become clear that the only halfway viable location for an Oswald encounter off the first floor and anywhere near the rear stairway is the second-floor lunchroom.

**

On 1 December 63 The Washington Post carried the following report:

Researchers' eyes have over the years been drawn to the last detail in the underlined sections: "sipping from a Coke bottle".

And indeed, this was part of the first version of the lunchroom story that Roy Truly began to give out from the evening or night of the assassination.

However it's the details before that that are of most interest in the present context.

The story being told here is not of Truly and the officer running to the rear of the first floor.

Instead it has Truly and the officer (whose gun, NB, is drawn--a fact already demonstrated in Darnell) go up the front steps and then immediately go up the stairs to the second floor.

The stairs in question are not the rear stairs but the front-of-house stairs (black arrow marks the "small storage room" where Campbell and Reid will in the real world soon see Oswald):

Now for the kick in the head:

As they made their way to a back stairway...

These words are only puzzling if we forget the words just preceding them.

Truly has led Baker up the front stairs so that they can go through the second floor (via either corridors or office area) and make their way to the back stairway which leads all the way up to the top of the building (the front stairs only went up as far as the fourth floor).

**

But why would the new lunchroom story need to delete the real-life dash to the rear of the first floor?

For the simple reason that the officer needs to be given a route that will take him right by the second-floor lunchroom.

It is impossible to go from the front stairs to the second-floor rear stairs without passing the lunchroom.

**

Roy Truly's very first on-the-record mention of a second-floor lunchroom incident, given late on 11/22, is notable for the distinct impression it gives that he and the officer took the front stairs not the back:

They saw no one there: Truly's giveaway disclaimer as to Oswald's presence at the first floor entrance

he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building: front stairs, for a route that will bring Oswald into Baker's path en route to the rear stairway

Another brilliant catch, Sean, and I did not realize just how brilliant until I went back and studied the floor plan of the 2nd floor of the TSBD; which I have linked below for others to refer to:

http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26

One glaring thing that stands out immediately is that Baker, whom we assume is hard on Truly's heels and making a hard left after emerging from the staircase onto the 2nd floor landing, is never in a position to be able to see Oswald in the lunchroom, unless Oswald has his face pressed up against the window of the lunchroom door. Baker would have to look through the small windows of two doors which, unfortunately for the WC apologists, are not even close to being lined up to the line of sight of Baker emerging from the staircase and heading for the 2nd floor.

It would make far more sense, assuming the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter actually did occur, for Baker/Truly to take the front staircase and pass through the vestibule of the lunchroom on the way to the back staircase. In that scenario, Baker/Truly would go past the single door to the lunch room and a quick glance to the right by Baker, through the door window, would find Oswald with his Coke in the lunchroom.

However, in light of the material revealed in the last few posts by you and Mr. Hocking, I am seriously beginning to doubt that Baker/Truly went up any stairs at all.

Brilliant research, gentlemen, and I have to say I have learned more about the assassination on this thread, and this forum, in the last few months than I have learned in the last ten years. Keep up the good work!

P.S. This has probably been shown a thousand times but, for the benefit of those younger people new to the case, here is what Baker would have seen emerging from the staircase at the 2nd floor landing:

http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=28

As can be seen in this WC photo, the only thing visible through this door is the wall to the right of the lunchroom door. As Baker moves to his left, towards the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, his line of sight through this first door actually moves away from the lunchroom door.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Mark Knight]

So just what WAS that "white" item in front of "Prayer Man's" face in the film?

Let's go back to what it is alleged that Oswald said he had for lunch: a cheese sandwich and a Coke.

In 1963, I was a 9-year-old kid. I knew a little something about "sack lunches" of the day, before it was cool to call it "brown-bagging." In 1963, "Baggies" sandwich bags with the twist-ties MAY have already been on the market, but their usage wasn't quite universal. So there were generally three common ways to wrap a sandwich for lunch.

ONE was to use aluminum foil--"Reynolds Wrap." Not common for wrapping a cheese sandwich; usually reserved for something that would be heated or chilled. But occasionally used for sandwiches.

A SECOND way was to use waxed paper--"Cut Rite." Not the most secure wrapping for a sandwich, but it was still common in 1963. And if one is eating a sandwich, and only unwraps the part from which one is taking a bite, the waxed paper will appear WHITE from a distance.

The THIRD way I remember seeing sandwiches wrapped in 1963 was with clear plastic wrap--"Saran Wrap." Saran Wrap might or might not reflect in a photo, depending on the angle of a light source.

A cheese sandwich would be a good candidate for waxed paper. If it had mayo or some other sort of sandwich spread on it, Saran Wrap would possibly be a good way to prevent a mess in the lunch sack. And Reynolds Wrap would be a less attractive alternative all the way around, unless there was no other alternative.

We have to remember to look at these things through the prism of 1963, and not 2013...not always easy to do.

[Sean Murphy]

Another brilliant catch, Sean, and I did not realize just how brilliant until I went back and studied the floor plan of the 2nd floor of the TSBD; which I have linked below for others to refer to:

http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26

One glaring thing that stands out immediately is that Baker, whom we assume is hard on Truly's heels and making a hard left after emerging from the staircase onto the 2nd floor landing, is never in a position to be able to see Oswald in the lunchroom, unless Oswald has his face pressed up against the window of the lunchroom door. Baker would have to look through the small windows of two doors which, unfortunately for the WC apologists, are not even close to being lined up to the line of sight of Baker emerging from the staircase and heading for the 2nd floor.

It would make far more sense, assuming the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter actually did occur, for Baker/Truly to take the front staircase and pass through the vestibule of the lunchroom on the way to the back staircase. In that scenario, Baker/Truly would go past the single door to the lunch room and a quick glance to the right by Baker, through the door window, would find Oswald with his Coke in the lunchroom.

However, in light of the material revealed in the last few posts by you and Mr. Hocking, I am seriously beginning to doubt that Baker/Truly went up any stairs at all.

Brilliant research, gentlemen, and I have to say I have learned more about the assassination on this thread, and this forum, in the last few months than I have learned in the last ten years. Keep up the good work!

P.S. This has probably been shown a thousand times but, for the benefit of those younger people new to the case, here is what Baker would have seen emerging from the staircase at the 2nd floor landing:

http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=28

As can be seen in this WC photo, the only thing visible through this door is the wall to the right of the lunchroom door. As Baker moves to his left, towards the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, his line of sight through this first door actually moves away from the lunchroom door.

Many thanks for the kind words, Robert, and you are of course quite right--Baker had nothing close to a line of sight from his position on the second-floor landing into the lunchroom.

This fact presented a very real problem, and one necessitating a fresh round of hocus pocus involving the (re)mobilisation of Oswald at the time of Baker's first sighting of him:

(Credit: Martin Hinrichs)

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

So just what WAS that "white" item in front of "Prayer Man's" face in the film?

Let's go back to what it is alleged that Oswald said he had for lunch: a cheese sandwich and a Coke.

In 1963, I was a 9-year-old kid. I knew a little something about "sack lunches" of the day, before it was cool to call it "brown-bagging." In 1963, "Baggies" sandwich bags with the twist-ties MAY have already been on the market, but their usage wasn't quite universal. So there were generally three common ways to wrap a sandwich for lunch.

ONE was to use aluminum foil--"Reynolds Wrap." Not common for wrapping a cheese sandwich; usually reserved for something that would be heated or chilled. But occasionally used for sandwiches.

A SECOND way was to use waxed paper--"Cut Rite." Not the most secure wrapping for a sandwich, but it was still common in 1963. And if one is eating a sandwich, and only unwraps the part from which one is taking a bite, the waxed paper will appear WHITE from a distance.

The THIRD way I remember seeing sandwiches wrapped in 1963 was with clear plastic wrap--"Saran Wrap." Saran Wrap might or might not reflect in a photo, depending on the angle of a light source.

A cheese sandwich would be a good candidate for waxed paper. If it had mayo or some other sort of sandwich spread on it, Saran Wrap would possibly be a good way to prevent a mess in the lunch sack. And Reynolds Wrap would be a less attractive alternative all the way around, unless there was no other alternative.

We have to remember to look at these things through the prism of 1963, and not 2013...not always easy to do.

Interesting suggestions, Mark, thanks

I especially like #2:

Marina Oswald's words to the WC are worth bearing in mind perhaps: We have wrapping paper around the house.

If Oswald regularly ate cheese sandwiches for lunch, it's no stretch to suppose him in the habit of wrapping them for work.

**

By the way, Oswald is reported to have mentioned a third lunch item: apple.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Many thanks for the kind words, Robert, and you are of course quite right--Baker had nothing close to a line of sight from his position on the second-floor landing into the lunchroom.

You are forgetting something, Sean.

Baker testified that he planned to check each floor,

if I am not mistaken.

Your theory is based on the false premise

that Baker testified that he checked each floor

but not the second floor.

By Baker's own testimony we can draw the inference

that he deliberately checked the 2nd floor

by deliberately entering the lunchroom,

as part of his plan to check each floor.

It would only be peculiar if he HAD NOT

checked that lunchroom!

Edited September 1, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Many thanks for the kind words, Robert, and you are of course quite right--Baker had nothing close to a line of sight from his position on the second-floor landing into the lunchroom.

You are forgetting something, Sean.

Baker testified that he planned to check each floor,

if I am not mistaken.

Your theory is based on the false premise

that Baker testified that he checked each floor

but not the second floor.

By Baker's own testimony we can draw the inference

that he deliberately checked the 2nd floor

by deliberately entering the lunchroom,

as part of his plan to check each floor.

It would only be peculiar if he HAD NOT

checked that lunchroom!

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.

Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there

Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I WAS KIND OF SCANNING you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door.

AND WHEN I GOT TO WHERE I COULD SEE HIM he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Thank you Robert.

[Sean Murphy]

As we have seen, giving Baker and Truly a route up the front stairs to the second floor and then through the second floor towards the rear stairway in the northwest corner of the building meant that Baker could have a realistic way of seeing into the lunchroom and noticing Oswald.

**

Just a few days after the assassination, the Secret Service made a silent film reconstructing Oswald's alleged route from the sixth-floor SN down the stairs and into the second-floor lunchroom.

Let's join the reconstruction on the second floor, as the stand-in 'Oswald' leaves the landing area:

Where does 'Oswald' end up after his travels?

Not by the Coca-Cola vending machine, but somewhere very different...

Now can anyone seriously believe that this in situ reconstruction was undertaken by the Secret Service of the United States of America without either Roy Truly or Marrion Baker, the two protagonists in the Oswald sighting, being consulted first?

Or that Roy Truly, the building manager and TSBD liaison man for investigators, was not present when this reconstruction was filmed?

Or that there is no significance whatsoever in the fact that around the same time as this film was made the following appeared in the New York Herald Tribune? (underlined text, middle paragraphs: click to enlarge)

Or that it is quite so easy to dismiss as a case of crossed wires the information that had been given to the press by Jesse Curry only the day after the assassination: "He was sitting in the lunchroom and one of my officers drew a weapon on him"?

Crossed wires, from first to last?

No--just a messily evolving fairytale.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

As we have seen, giving Baker and Truly a route up the front stairs to the second floor and then through the second floor towards the rear stairway in the northwest corner of the building meant that Baker could have a realistic way of seeing into the lunchroom and noticing Oswald.

As we have also seen, Baker would reach the same result by doing what he said he did

and what the totality of evidence PROVES he did, but Prayer Man Murphy religiously refuses to see.

Now can anyone seriously believe that this in situ reconstruction was undertaken by the Secret Service of the United States of America without either Roy Truly or Marrion Baker, the two protagonists in the Oswald sighting, being consulted first?

Sean, I suggest you read David Lifton and Vincent Michael Palamara before you put your religious faith in the Secret Service.

Or that it is quite so easy to dismiss as a case of crossed wires the information that had been given to the press by Jesse Curry only the day after the assassination: "He was sitting in the lunchroom and one of my officers drew a weapon on him"?

Crossed wires, from first to last?

No--just a messily evolving fairytale.

One of the first things I realized when I began studying this case

more than a quarter century ago,

is that Jesse Curry did not have the foggiest,

not the foggiest.

I am warning you right now, Murphy,

if you keep up with this nonsense

I will keep playing

The Pub With No Beer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E0aZ387M_I

and I've got fifty bucks say Robin Unger supports me.

And if you get me really mad, Sean, I will start playing scenes

from my favorite movie,

just to get your goat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcE-E6j8TLY

Edited September 1, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I WAS KIND OF SCANNING you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door.

AND WHEN I GOT TO WHERE I COULD SEE HIM he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Thank you Robert.

Mr. BELIN - Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door?

Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.

Thank you, Raymond.

[Pat Speer]

As we have seen, giving Baker and Truly a route up the front stairs to the second floor and then through the second floor towards the rear stairway in the northwest corner of the building meant that Baker could have a realistic way of seeing into the lunchroom and noticing Oswald.

As we have also seen, Baker would reach the same result by doing what he said he did

and what the totality of evidence PROVES he did, but Prayer Man Murphy religiously refuses to see.

Now can anyone seriously believe that this in situ reconstruction was undertaken by the Secret Service of the United States of America without either Roy Truly or Marrion Baker, the two protagonists in the Oswald sighting, being consulted first?

Sean, I suggest you read David Lifton and Vincent Michael Palamara before you put your religious faith in the Secret Service.

Or that it is quite so easy to dismiss as a case of crossed wires the information that had been given to the press by Jesse Curry only the day after the assassination: "He was sitting in the lunchroom and one of my officers drew a weapon on him"?

Crossed wires, from first to last?

No--just a messily evolving fairytale.

One of the first things I realized when I began studying this case

more than a quarter century ago,

is that Jesse Curry did not have the foggiest,

not the foggiest.

I am warning you right now, Murphy,

if you keep up with this nonsense

I will keep playing

The Pub With No Beer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E0aZ387M_I

and I've got fifty bucks say Robin Unger supports me.

And if you get me really mad, Sean, I will start playing scenes

from my favorite movie,

just to get your goat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcE-E6j8TLY

Please refrain from this silliness, Ray. We are not here to amuse ourselves at the expense of others, or dispense "warnings" and threats, even in jest.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Please refrain from this silliness, Ray. We are not here to amuse ourselves at the expense of others, or dispense "warnings" and threats, even in jest.

Joking aside, Pat, what do you think of the argument that the 2nd floor Baker encounter

is somehow a cooked-up story?

What I want to know is:

Why would they cook up a story

that exonerates Lee Oswald?

Surely no one with half a brain

ever believed the story

that a young workman

learned his leader would be passing

so he shot his fearless leader

and then went fumbling

for pocket change

to get a coke

from the coke machine.

Edited September 2, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Sean Murphy]

On the night of 11/22, Captain Fritz files a Case Report on Oswald (click to enlarge):

Page 2 of the report lists the roles played that day by key witnesses from law enforcement:

Top of the list is this:

The claim underlined is of course a brazen lie: Baker hasn't identified Oswald in any lineup.

If he has attended one, he must have done a Brennan and refused to make an identification.

All this lie does is draw our attention to the weird failure of the affidavit (to which the reader is being pointed here) to offer any link between the 'employee' confronted in the Depository building and Oswald.

But the placing of Baker's name at the very top of this document indicates just how central a role Fritz already envisages for him in the mounting of a case against Oswald.

If Baker, as we have reason to believe, is proving a less tractable witness than Fritz needs, that will be work for another day.

For now, what counts is that Fritz has in the bank a damning affidavit supplemented by a lie compensating for what the affidavit so pointedly omits to mention: Baker's recognising of Oswald as Mr. Third or Fourth Floor Walking Away From The Stairway.

**

But Mr. Third or Fourth Floor Walking Away From The Stairway is himself a pure fiction, as are the circumstances of Baker's first sighting of him:

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me.

To explain the relationship between the scene painted by the words above and the very different little scene enacted below--

--is to explain how the fix against Oswald was put in.

It is, in a nutshell, A Tale of Two Fictions being mongrelised into a Third:

Edited September 5, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[J. Raymond Carroll]

It is, in a nutshell, a A Tale of Two Fictions being mongrelized into a Third:

You are truly are on your own,

in my book, Sean.

They broke the mould

the day they made

Prayerman Sean Murphy,

who hasn't learned to quit

when he's already won the race,

in my book at least.

Edited September 2, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Richard Hocking]

It might be helpful at this point to note there are several component discussions in this thread.

The first two focus on the figure seen in Weigman and Darnell:

1. Identifying Prayer Man

2. The light “reflection” area by PM’s hands: Is PM holding something?

Several other discussions have evolved from the implications of Oswald as Prayer Man:

3. Oswald seen in the small Storage room in the front Lobby

4. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the entrance or 1^st floor lobby

5. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the 2^nd floor Lunchroom area

6. Oswald 2^nd floor encounter with Mrs. Reid

7. Baker encounter with suspect on 4^th floor (from his first day affidavit)

8. Baker stairs/ or elevator/ or combination to the roof

9. Oswald leaving the TSBD (from the title of the thread)