Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

"Curiouser and curiouser......"

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Question for Sean and Duncan: does film show Prayer Man

actually enter the building, or can that be deduced?

[Richard Hocking]

Excerpt from Will Fritz notes of Oswald interrogation

link: http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/fritz1-5.jpg

...

claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in

to 1st floor had lunch

out with Bill Shelley in

front

lft wk opinion nothing be

done that day etc.

...

[Ray Mitcham]

Looks as though it could be. Correct dark shirt and looks like Oswald's build.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Ray Mitcham

[Thomas Graves]

Looks as though it could be. Correct dark shirt and looks like Oswald's build.

Yes, and I can see his crooked front tooth. LOL

--Tommy

Edited August 17, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

Oswald had not yet purchased the coke when he was confronted by Baker.

The statement Baker wrote in which he crossed out the coke was written days later and is not the first day statement,

I think Baker must have heard of the coke story from others and after mentioning it in his statement realized that he did not see Oswald with the coke in hand and crossed it out.

From this analysis - JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY

it is quite clear that Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom vestibule from the south door which he left by that leads to offices - where with coke in hand he encountered the secretary and to the front elevator and front stairs that lead directly to the front door.

As for Gary Mack, he says it is not the Couch film which is now in the possession of the Sixth Floor, that does not show the doorway, but it is a frame from the 16 mm Darnell film, which shows Baker running to the front door and when coordinated with other films, indicates it took Baker 40 seconds after the first shot to reach the front door of the TSBD.

Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection.

Even though no one claims to have seen Oswald on the steps or actually leaving the TSBD, the Warren Report concludes that he did leave through the front door at 12:33pm, three minutes after the last shot and a minute and a half after encountering Baker and Truly.

I also have a problem with Baker brushing past Truly twenty feet from the front door. How do we know that is Truly?

Truly says he met Baker just inside the front door and when Baker said he wanted to go to the roof, led him to the back of the first floor to the freight elevators - that were parked together on the fifth floor, so they went up the steps, Baker following Truly.

If that is a 16 mm film frame then it should be enhanced even further to reveal more details.

And whatever happened to the coke bottle? Did Oswald leave it somewhere in the TSBD?

BK

Edited August 17, 2013 by William Kelly

[Thomas Graves]

That's not possible, Raymond.

Baker buzzed past this guy approximately 3 seconds after the frame in question.

Which "camera car" can be partially seen (in the left foreground) at the very beginning of this clip (and at :06, still in the foreground)? If we can identify it, we can use it and and motorcycle cop who turns the corner at :06 and :07 to establish more precisely when Officer Baker entered the TSBD...

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited August 17, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Ray Mitcham]

Looks as though it could be. Correct dark shirt and looks like Oswald's build.

Yes, and I can see his crooked front tooth. LOL

--Tommy

By Jove, Thomas, I believe you are correct. Curiouser and curiouser....

[J. Raymond Carroll]

From this analysis - JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY

it is quite clear that Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom vestibule from the south door which he left by that leads to offices - where with coke in hand he encountered the secretary and to the front elevator and front stairs that lead directly to the front door.

That is an excellent analysis Bill, synthesizing Roffman (Howard) and Weisberg.

While Weisberg was writing Whitewash, Leo Sauvage also wrote an excellent analysis, that mirrors Weisberg

and I would post it here except I am a lousy typist.

[Gary] Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did,

Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Gary's argument reminds me of Peter, the right hand man of Jesus.

When Jesus was arrested Peter was asked if he knew this man.

Peter's response was to the effect

"Never laid eyes on the guy in my whole life."

Edited August 17, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Oswald had not yet purchased the coke when he was confronted by Baker.

The statement Baker wrote in which he crossed out the coke was written days later and is not the first day statement,

I think Baker must have heard of the coke story from others and after mentioning it in his statement realized that he did not see Oswald with the coke in hand and crossed it out.

I think you are dead right on this one, Bill.

David Lifton once told me that he believed Baker was sent to Kill Oz

but was prevented by the presence of Roy Truly.

I do not know whether David still holds that view, (it was many years ago) but as I told David then,

I have never harbored any suspicions about officer Marion Baker.

Edited August 17, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Quote:

"Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection."

How many TSBD employees were still on the steps when this person would have stepped out the door? How many of them would have been looking behind them, instead of down the street towards where the shots were heard?

Also, how does one establish the height of the person in the photo at under 5'9"?

[William Kelly]

Quote:

"Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection."

How many TSBD employees were still on the steps when this person would have stepped out the door? How many of them would have been looking behind them, instead of down the street towards where the shots were heard?

Also, how does one establish the height of the person in the photo at under 5'9"?

Gary informs me that he was referring to another film clip, and will not change his mind.

[Ray Mitcham]

Quote:

"Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection."

How many TSBD employees were still on the steps when this person would have stepped out the door? How many of them would have been looking behind them, instead of down the street towards where the shots were heard?

Also, how does one establish the height of the person in the photo at under 5'9"?

Gary informs me that he was referring to another film clip, and will not change his mind.

Did he say which film clip, Bill?

[William Kelly]

This appears to be a totally different film - neither Couch or Darnel - that seems to show the same guy with a dark, open shirt and white t-shirt under it - walking down the steps - ▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

It appears this kid has blue jeans on, not slacks ala Oswald.

Is it the same guy?

And who took this film and what time is it?

BK

[Sean Murphy]

Oswald had not yet purchased the coke when he was confronted by Baker.

The statement Baker wrote in which he crossed out the coke was written days later and is not the first day statement,

I think Baker must have heard of the coke story from others and after mentioning it in his statement realized that he did not see Oswald with the coke in hand and crossed it out.

From this analysis - JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY

it is quite clear that Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom vestibule from the south door which he left by that leads to offices - where with coke in hand he encountered the secretary and to the front elevator and front stairs that lead directly to the front door.

As for Gary Mack, he says it is not the Couch film which is now in the possession of the Sixth Floor, that does not show the doorway, but it is a frame from the 16 mm Darnell film, which shows Baker running to the front door and when coordinated with other films, indicates it took Baker 40 seconds after the first shot to reach the front door of the TSBD.

Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection.

Even though no one claims to have seen Oswald on the steps or actually leaving the TSBD, the Warren Report concludes that he did leave through the front door at 12:33pm, three minutes after the last shot and a minute and a half after encountering Baker and Truly.

I also have a problem with Baker brushing past Truly twenty feet from the front door. How do we know that is Truly?

Truly says he met Baker just inside the front door and when Baker said he wanted to go to the roof, led him to the back of the first floor to the freight elevators - that were parked together on the fifth floor, so they went up the steps, Baker following Truly.

If that is a 16 mm film frame then it should be enhanced even further to reveal more details.

And whatever happened to the coke bottle? Did Oswald leave it somewhere in the TSBD?

BK

How on earth does Gary Mack know that Prayer Man is "too short to be the 5'9" Oswald"? Is he just guessing?

And where is he getting "it took Baker 40 seconds after the first shot to reach the front door of the TSBD" from? Has he already forgotten the argument he lost--and lost badly--on the Lancer forum back in 2007 over the Baker timeline? Good grief.