Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Hello Ray

Thank you for posting this interview. Oddly enough, this is the only place I have ever seen Baker actually say the pigeons flew up from the roof of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he makes a vague reference about the pigeons:

"Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner."

Now, towards the end of his testimony, he describes being on the roof of the TSBD and almost tells the WC that the pigeons were flushed from the roof of the TSBD.

"Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do?

SENATOR COOPER - You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

SENATOR COOPER - Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir."

"No, sir. They had all...." Had all what? Been flushed off of the roof by the sound of a gunshot?

Finally, we come to the interview you gave us.

"A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me."

Finally, Baker tells us where the pigeons were at the time of the first shot. It may seem a bit strange that I am so interested in a flock of pigeons being flushed off the roof of the TSBD but, think about how unlikely this is. The 6th floor window was two storeys down from the roof, and there was a five foot parapet around the perimeter of the roof. If the pigeons were actually on the roof, and not the parapet, would they not be somewhat sheltered from the blast of a rifle pointed away from the TSBD?

What is far more probable, is a shot from the Dal-Tex Building pointed down Elm St. The pigeons on the roof would then be inside the cone of influence created by the muzzle blast of the rifle and would indeed have been flushed off the roof.

Would most of the pigeons sitting on all of the buildings in Dealey Plaza have taken flight upon hearing a shot coming from any building, or would only the pigeons sitting on the shooter's building have taken off en mass?

I'm not a pigeon expert, but the former seems reasonable to me.

Was the roof of the TSBD the favorite place for Dealey Plaza pigeons to sit?

--Tommy

Edited September 13, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Hello Ray

Thank you for posting this interview. Oddly enough, this is the only place I have ever seen Baker actually say the pigeons flew up from the roof of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he makes a vague reference about the pigeons:

"Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner."

Now, towards the end of his testimony, he describes being on the roof of the TSBD and almost tells the WC that the pigeons were flushed from the roof of the TSBD.

"Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do?

SENATOR COOPER - You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

SENATOR COOPER - Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir."

"No, sir. They had all...." Had all what? Been flushed off of the roof by the sound of a gunshot?

Finally, we come to the interview you gave us.

"A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me."

Finally, Baker tells us where the pigeons were at the time of the first shot. It may seem a bit strange that I am so interested in a flock of pigeons being flushed off the roof of the TSBD but, think about how unlikely this is. The 6th floor window was two storeys down from the roof, and there was a five foot parapet around the perimeter of the roof. If the pigeons were actually on the roof, and not the parapet, would they not be somewhat sheltered from the blast of a rifle pointed away from the TSBD?

What is far more probable, is a shot from the Dal-Tex Building pointed down Elm St. The pigeons on the roof would then be inside the cone of influence created by the muzzle blast of the rifle and would indeed have been flushed off the roof.

Would most of the pigeons sitting on all of the buildings in Dealey Plaza have taken flight upon hearing a shot, or would only the pigeons sitting on the shooter's building have taken off en mass?

I'm not a pigeon expert, but the former seems reasonable to me.

--Tommy

Hello Tommy

You have to understand that the noise of a rifle is far louder when you are equal with or ahead of the muzzle. Standing behind someone who is shooting a rifle will greatly diminish the noise of the muzzle blast. Also, any physical barriers between your ears and the blast of a rifle, such as being on the roof of the TSBD and having someone on the 6th floor shoot a rifle away from the building, will certainly offer a much reduced noise level.

If anything, I would expect pigeons to be flushed from surrounding buildings, but NOT from the TSBD, for these very reasons.

[Robin Unger]

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hughes GIF

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hi

Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be?

Thanks - Steve

[Richard Hocking]

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hi

Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be?

Thanks - Steve

Hi Steve,

In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion:

" ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..."

Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it).

This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Richard Hocking]

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

[Sean Murphy]

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Richard,

I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady:

And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony.

So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter?

Thanks,

Sean

[Richard Hocking]

Another message from Gary Mack to clarify his position, paraphrased in Purple below:

[begin paraphrase]

Gary is positive of his identification of Jimmy Darnell in the Cook film.

Gary is having second thoughts about the ID of the man in the Brown suit and hat in the Bond #5. Not positive at this point of his ID.

Regarding PM: Gary feels PM is Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald. He also says the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady walking along Elm, so Lovelady must still be on the steps.

[end paraphrase]

A final note: Gary is a member of this forum and may be contacted through the Personal Message feature.

Richard,

I'm sorry, but Gary Mack cannot possibly believe that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

He knows that the Wiegman frames show Prayer Man standing in the shadows beside Lovelady:

And Gary cannot possibly be telling people that Lovelady and Bill Shelley lied outlandishly in their WC testimony.

So can you please give us the exact words Gary used in his message on this matter?

Thanks,

Sean

Sean,

Since the forum Guidelines advise against reproducing exact extracts from Private emails, I tried to accurately paraphrase the essence of Gary's position. BTW, Gary originally contacted me to identify James Darnell. I asked him for his opinion on PM and he replied.

GM exact quote in Purple below:

"As for PM, I think he’s Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald; also, the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady, walking along Elm so that means Lovelady must still be on the steps."

I feel like I am doing a bit of tight-rope walking here, acting as a go-between, but I did it because I know there are forum members who are interested in what Gary Mack's take is on PM.

To be perfectly clear about my own position:

• I remain convinced that Lovelady and Shelley are leaving the Steps area before Baker arrives as seen in the Couch film

• I believe PM is Lee Oswald

• Frazier and LHO are both visible in the Darnell shot, and they both are the proper height.

[Sean Murphy]

Thanks, Richard.

As for PM, I think he’s Billy Lovelady who was shorter and heavier than Oswald; also, the Couch film shows two other men, not Shelley and Lovelady, walking along Elm so that means Lovelady must still be on the steps."

No, I'm sorry, but when Gary wrote these words he must have been unaware that Prayer Man and Lovelady can be seen beside one another in the Wiegman film.

[David Redemer]

We have reasonably established Prayer Man as a TSBD man, his clothing indicating a manual labor type employee as opposed to a managerial type that would be wearing suit and tie. The available candidates that meet these criteria are limited. They include order fillers, janitor, clerks, and warehousemen. Below is a list of TSBD employees who meet that description. I have added observations regarding their locations when the motorcade passed the TSBD, as claimed in testimony or revealed in film and photo evidence, along with some comments regarding their possibility of being Prayer Man.

Danny Arce Floor laying crew at the TSBD - Watched Presidential Limo from North side of Elm Street in front of TSBD, (to the West of the Entrance). Wrong location; not a candidate.

Jack Dougherty - 5th floor of TSBD 10' from elevator; he is described by Roy Truly as being a great big husky fellow, Description and location disqualify him from consideration as Prayer Man.

Buell Wesley Frazier - Top of front steps at the Center Rail. His precise description of his location, along with his tall thin physique rule him out. See earlier discussion about Frazier (and photos) in this thread.

Charles Givens - Mullendorf's Cafe or Parking lot at Record Street. Being at least one block away means it could not have been Givens.

James Jarman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Carl Edward Jones - sitting on the front steps / out by Elm Street with Truly, Campbell and Reid. Saw the President slump after being shot. He cannot be Prayer Man.

Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps. Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgens. He is not Prayer Man.

Billy Lovelady - front steps. Gone from the Steps well before the Darnell shot was taken. Corroborated testimony and film show he is not Prayer Man.

Harold Norman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Eddie Piper sitting on a box watching through the second window from the corner on the 1st floor. Location and other factors rule him out.

Troy Eugene West - making coffee on the 1st floor. Did not know JFK had been shot until people rushed into building talking about it. He is not Prayer Man.

Bonnie Ray Wiliams - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Who's left?

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this.

Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points:

-Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage:

Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions:

Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand?

Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could.

Except I do not see a coke in Prayer Man's hands yet,

maybe a later film will show that,

a film taken after Prayer Man has gone upstairs

to the coke machine.

Of course I make no claim to being

a photo expert.

BTW, compliments to Richard Hocking and yourself Sean

for the breakdown of TSBD employees.

You and Richard have done a fantastic job on this thread.

Ladies and Gentleman,

I am a new poster but a long time lurker. I have been a student of the assassination since the late 80's and find this post to be most intriguing. It has taken me several days to follow the action but have since had a few thoughts. I apologize in advance for not being able to cut and paste the photos and videos that I wish to reference, but I would like to share my impressions.

It appears to me that Prayer man is holding a camera. He raises it to his face as the motorcade passes and then lowers it as the action passes. He then rotates his body left to face the crowd on the stairwell as they begin to react to the commotion following the shots.

From the photos and videos in this thread, there is a point when Prayer man is looking to his right and in the next video rotates his body to his left, his hands never change position, indicative of someone holding a camera looking through a viewfinder.

Another observation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and was drinking his Coke, ie, the glare visible in some of the footage, would his Coke still be full as Mrs. Reid testified to later, or would it have been half empty by then. This assumes PM/ Oswald returned to the 2nd floor from the entrance?

Another thought, if Prayer Man/Oswald was eating his lunch and ham sandwich at the front entrance as suggested, would the ham sandwich show a reflection as seen in the video?

I am jumping into deep water, but you have to get wet at some point. I mean no slight on the amazing work Sean and the rest of you have done. These are just field notes from someone familiar with the assassination and intrigued by the questions brought forth in this thread.

Much respect to all of you.

Dave

[David Redemer]

We have reasonably established Prayer Man as a TSBD man, his clothing indicating a manual labor type employee as opposed to a managerial type that would be wearing suit and tie. The available candidates that meet these criteria are limited. They include order fillers, janitor, clerks, and warehousemen. Below is a list of TSBD employees who meet that description. I have added observations regarding their locations when the motorcade passed the TSBD, as claimed in testimony or revealed in film and photo evidence, along with some comments regarding their possibility of being Prayer Man.

Danny Arce Floor laying crew at the TSBD - Watched Presidential Limo from North side of Elm Street in front of TSBD, (to the West of the Entrance). Wrong location; not a candidate.Jack Dougherty - 5th floor of TSBD 10' from elevator; he is described by Roy Truly as being a great big husky fellow, Description and location disqualify him from consideration as Prayer Man.Buell Wesley Frazier - Top of front steps at the Center Rail. His precise description of his location, along with his tall thin physique rule him out. See earlier discussion about Frazier (and photos) in this thread.Charles Givens - Mullendorf's Cafe or Parking lot at Record Street. Being at least one block away means it could not have been Givens.James Jarman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.Carl Edward Jones - sitting on the front steps / out by Elm Street with Truly, Campbell and Reid. Saw the President slump after being shot. He cannot be Prayer Man.Roy Edward Lewis - standing with some ladies in the middle of the front steps. Roy Edwards is almost certainly the African American watching from behind the West Column in Altgens. He is not Prayer Man.Billy Lovelady - front steps. Gone from the Steps well before the Darnell shot was taken. Corroborated testimony and film show he is not Prayer Man.Harold Norman - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.Eddie Piper sitting on a box watching through the second window from the corner on the 1st floor. Location and other factors rule him out.Troy Eugene West - making coffee on the 1st floor. Did not know JFK had been shot until people rushed into building talking about it. He is not Prayer Man.Bonnie Ray Wiliams - 5th floor window below sniper's lair. Photo evidence shows he was on the 5^th floor.

Who's left?

Excellent work, Richard, it's good to get these listed systematically like this.

Just a couple of small additions to copperfasten your points:

-Billy Lovelady is even more definitively ruled out as Prayer Man for the simple reason that the two show up right beside each other in the Wiegman footage:

Now unless someone is going to come forward and tell us that Prayer Man is actually a rather butch woman, we're still stuck with the mother of all questions:

Is Prayer Man none other than Lee Oswald, coke bottle in hand?

Could it really be that simple? You bet your life it could.

Except I do not see a coke in Prayer Man's hands yet,

maybe a later film will show that,

a film taken after Prayer Man has gone upstairs

to the coke machine.

Of course I make no claim to being

a photo expert.

BTW, compliments to Richard Hocking and yourself Sean

for the breakdown of TSBD employees.

You and Richard have done a fantastic job on this thread.

Ladies and Gentleman,

I am a new poster but a long time lurker. I have been a student of the assassination since the late 80's and find this post to be most intriguing. It has taken me several days to follow the action but have since had a few thoughts. I apologize in advance for not being able to cut and paste the photos and videos that I wish to reference, but I would like to share my impressions.

It appears to me that Prayer man is holding a camera. He raises it to his face as the motorcade passes and then lowers it as the action passes. He then rotates his body left to face the crowd on the stairwell as they begin to react to the commotion following the shots.

From the photos and videos in this thread, there is a point when Prayer man is looking to his right and in the next video rotates his body to his left, his hands never change position, indicative of someone holding a camera looking through a viewfinder.

Another observation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and was drinking his Coke, ie, the glare visible in some of the footage, would his Coke still be full as Mrs. Reid testified to later, or would it have been half empty by then. This assumes PM/ Oswald returned to the 2nd floor from the entrance?

Another thought, if Prayer Man/Oswald was eating his lunch and ham sandwich at the front entrance as suggested, would the ham sandwich show a reflection as seen in the video?

I am jumping into deep water, but you have to get wet at some point. I mean no slight on the amazing work Sean and the rest of you have done. These are just field notes from someone familiar with the assassination and intrigued by the questions brought forth in this thread.

Much respect to all of you.

Dave

I would also like to submit, that I am a strong believer that JFK was killed via a conspiracy and that our country and foreign policy has been ruled by a cable of like minded individuals since.

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Regarding the Bond #5 photo, Gary Mack says the man in the Brown suit and hat is actually Wiegman.

He also sent a film clip from a Don Cook/KTVT film. Gary said James Darnell is the guy with no hat, with the camera at 1:59 in the film clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_embedded

Hi

Can you please ask GM who he thinks 'Prayer Man' might be?

Thanks - Steve

Hi Steve,

In post #57 (p4) of this thread Bill Kelly posted this concerning Gary's opinion:

" ... Mack also says that no one who worked at the TSBD saw Oswald on the steps, or said they did, and the man is too short to be the 5' 9" Oswald, and that by the time the frame is filmed Oswald is on or waiting for the bus, which doesn't make any sense if Baker runs into Oswald on the second floor about a minute later. I think Gary will alter that statement after reflection. ..."

Edit: Gary replies that the quote above concerns a different film clip (not the Darnell clip with PM in it).

This quote is probably in relation to the clip posted by Bill Kelly in his original post on this thread. To my knowledge, no one has identified the photographer/source of that clip.

Hi Richard

Thank you so much for taking the time to express GM's views and even though Gary was kind enough to mail me directly I appreciate your effort.

Thanks - Steve

[William Kelly]

Here's "Prayer Man" and three photos of Oswald that was put together by someone who is not a member of this forum and emailed to me a while back, and I'm sorry I've been off line and haven't had time to post it, and haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if it has already been posted.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/prayer-man-at-tsbd

I think it makes it clear that "Prayer Man" could most certainly be Oswald, though I am also giving odds on it possibly being B.W. Frazer.

I don't buy the speculation that "Prayer Man" is eating Oswald's cheese sandwich, drinking a coke, taking pictures or eating an apple, or that this is where the encounter with Baker and Truly takes place - as Baker would have no reason to suspect "Prayer Man" of being suspicious, and he can't be drinking a coke - if he is Oswald because he didn't buy the coke yet. I also don't think Baker and Truly found Oswald sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke, as the SS reenactment photo would indicate.

I also place more credence in the original Youtube film of "College Boy" standing on the steps and then walking down and east on Elm, who I believe could be "Prayer Man" and/or Oswald, and this segment needs to be identified as to who took the film and who is in it.

I'd also like to hear what Buel Wesley Frazer has to say about it.

BK

[Sean Murphy]

Here's "Prayer Man" and three photos of Oswald that was put together by someone who is not a member of this forum and emailed to me a while back, and I'm sorry I've been off line and haven't had time to post it, and haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if it has already been posted.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/prayer-man-at-tsbd

I think it makes it clear that "Prayer Man" could most certainly be Oswald, though I am also giving odds on it possibly being B.W. Frazer.

I don't buy the speculation that "Prayer Man" is eating Oswald's cheese sandwich, drinking a coke, taking pictures or eating an apple, or that this is where the encounter with Baker and Truly takes place - as Baker would have no reason to suspect "Prayer Man" of being suspicious, and he can't be drinking a coke - if he is Oswald because he didn't buy the coke yet. I also don't think Baker and Truly found Oswald sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke, as the SS reenactment photo would indicate.

I also place more credence in the original Youtube film of "College Boy" standing on the steps and then walking down and east on Elm, who I believe could be "Prayer Man" and/or Oswald, and this segment needs to be identified as to who took the film and who is in it.

I'd also like to hear what Buel Wesley Frazer has to say about it.

BK

Bill,

Yes, it most certainly could be Oswald:

Frazier has already been firmly identified:

The speculation is not that Baker found Oswald suspicious at the front entrance.

It's that Baker, needing someone to point him to the stairs, asked Oswald if he worked there.

Why Oswald? Because he was right in Baker's path as he entered the building.

This briefest of exchanges was that evening recast by Dallas police as Baker's challenging or 'stopping' Oswald at the front entrance.

[Sean Murphy]

Gary Mack has kindly CC'd me on an email to Richard, which I hope Richard does not mind me posting:

Sean's observation is correct, I do not think Prayer Man is Lovelady, for I'm well aware that Lovelady stood to PM's left. I have no excuse for my temporary lapse in judgment and I apologize. Sorry. But I stand by my ID of Darnell in the Cook footage and, while I cannot rule out someone else, the man wearing the hat in Bond 5 is probably Dave Wiegman.

Thanks, Gary, the speedy and unequivocal clarification is appreciated.

Your original identification was clearly based on the observation that Prayer Man resembles Billy Lovelady.

Who, if not Lovelady, do you think he might be?