Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Gil Jesus]

We've done ALL of the research that needs to be done on the assassination at JFKAssassinationForum.com and any further research is a TOTAL waste of time. Oswald did it; embrace it, live with it.

I used to belong to that forum but I found that they are intolerant of any opinion other than Oswald was guilty. Posters were allowed to attack me and NOTHING was done about it, so I quit. That forum can go to hell.

[Robert Prudhomme]

We've done ALL of the research that needs to be done on the assassination at JFKAssassinationForum.com and any further research is a TOTAL waste of time. Oswald did it; embrace it, live with it.

I used to belong to that forum but I found that they are intolerant of any opinion other than Oswald was guilty. Posters were allowed to attack me and NOTHING was done about it, so I quit. That forum can go to hell.

Amen.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

There's also the fact that Oswald told the world that he was INSIDE the building when the shooting took place. Now, yes, Oswald was a world-class xxxx (to be sure), but don't you think that if he had REALLY been "praying man", he would have said he was OUTSIDE the building, on the steps? Wouldn't that TRUTH (if it had, indeed, been the truth) have been so much better for Oswald than the LIE that apparently many conspiracy believers think he told when he said this at 7:55 PM CST on 11/22/63?:

REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

Audio: http://app.box.com/shared/5mto6y3w4k

Or do some conspiracy theorists actually think that being on the steps in front of the building is pretty much the same thing as being INSIDE the Depository Building? In my opinion, that's a silly argument. If someone is standing on those TSBD steps, they are OUTSIDE the building itself. They aren't "inside".

Come on David. He is falsely accused and he has reporters shouting questions all at once.

He did not deny that he was on the front steps, now did he?

[David Von Pein]

Come on David. He is falsely accused and he has reporters shouting questions all at once.

He certainly wasn't "falsely accused", Ray. The evidence tells us that. It's not my fault that you and many other conspiracy theorists choose to ignore all of it.

He did not deny that he was on the front steps, now did he?

Pretty much, yes. He said he was INSIDE the building when President Kennedy was being shot. Do you think the front steps are INSIDE the building?

Edited August 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

He did not deny that he was on the front steps, now did he?

Pretty much, yes. He said he was INSIDE the building when President Kennedy was being shot. Do you think the front steps are INSIDE the building?

He confirmed that his location at the time of the shooting was the Texas School Book Depository, his place of work.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

He confirmed that his location at the time of the shooting was the Texas School Book Depository, his place of work.

Thank you Sean. Well said!

[Sean Murphy]

Further confirmation that Prayer Man cannot be Otis Williams.

From Williams's March 1964 FBI statement:

On November 22, 1963 at the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building.

This also further confirms that Prayer Man cannot be Joe Molina either: Molina told the WC that Otis Williams was "[r]ight next left of me" on the steps.

[William Kelly]

Can the photos and still frames of the man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man" be further isolated and enhanced to determine if he has a v-neck t-shirt, a coke in his hand or any other specific fact that can help identify him further?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building.

Sean: I hope others are not as confused as I am,

but can you please outline where EAST was in relation to the TSBD?

I used to know, years ago, but I am afraid I have forgotten.

I thought the front of the TSBD faced east, or south by east.

[William Kelly]

I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building.

Sean: I hope others are not as confused as I am,

but can you please outline where EAST was in relation to the TSBD?

I used to know, years ago, but I am afraid I have forgotten.

I thought the front of the TSBD faced east, or south by east.

Not to be smart, but in thinking about it , you have a perspective of a few key elements to understand what happened -

- TSBD front door faced SOUTH

- The Sixth Floor Sniper's window faced SOUTH and was located on the SOUTH-EAST corner.

- The TSBD stairs ran along the WEST side of the building

- The back warehouse doors faced NORTH

- There was another door on the NORTH - WEST-WEST side

- The fire escapes ran down the EAST side of the building

- Elm Street ran along the SOUTH - Dealey Plaza Side of the building

- Houston Street ran along the EAST side of the building

AND to get your bearings -

- Dallas is EAST of Fort Worth - NORTH of Houston, Austin and San Antonio

- Campisis' Egyptian Lounge is in NORTH Dallas

- Oak Cliff is SOUTH of Dealey Plaza

- Red Bird Airport is SOUTH Dallas

- Love Field is NORTH Dallas

- Dallas Trade Mart is NORTH of Dealey Plaza

- Parkland Hospital is NORTH of Dealey Plaza

[Richard Hocking]

Further confirmation that Prayer Man cannot be Otis Williams.

From Williams's March 1964 FBI statement:

On November 22, 1963 at the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building.

This also further confirms that Prayer Man cannot be Joe Molina either: Molina told the WC that Otis Williams was "[r]ight next left of me" on the steps.

In addition to the testimony of their locations on the steps, Molina was a Credit Manager, and Williams was a Book Keeping Supervisor. Both of these men would be expected to wear Tie/Dress Shirt/Suit to work. Prayer Man is wearing an unbuttoned shirt and has the appearance of a manual laborer. I think it is safe to dismiss Molina and Williams from consideration.

[Richard Hocking]

Yes, Richard, BWF's own testimony rules him out as Prayer Man. Looks like David lacks the grace to admit he was wrong.

I agree with you that Prayer Man's position--a pretty dreadful vantage point--is curious.

Curious also that Billy Lovelady's position in Altgens and Wiegman is that bit further from the western side wall than it was just seconds before in Hughes.

What happened?

Looking closely at a terrific gif Gerda Dunckel put together from the Hughes film, which covers the turn of the Presidential limousine onto Elm Street, are we seeing Lovelady being distracted by something just behind him to his right?

Might this something be the arrival of Prayer Man out onto the front steps?

And might Prayer Man's arrival help account for the nudging of Lovelady ever so slightly east?

Yes, Lovelady appears to make a turn to the right at the very end of this clip. And using your questions as a cue, I think it is possible to propose that as the Limo turns the corner onto Elm, Prayer Man and Lovelady begin to adjust their positions to the locations seen in Altgens and Weigman. With Prayer Man making a late entrance to his spot, when all eyes are focused on JFK and Jackie, no one is going to turn around and look behind them on the steps. After shots are fired and chaos erupts, it would be even less likely for witnesses to turn around and focus their attention to the back of the alcove.

[Thomas Graves]

Can the photos and still frames of the man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man" be further isolated and enhanced to determine if he has a v-neck t-shirt, a coke in his hand or any other specific fact that can help identify him further?

This is the best I can do,

the quality of the images are so bad, it's impossible to do a decent enhancement.

I do believe he may be holding something, although what it is can only be speculative at this point in time.

"This just proves that you're a CIA disinfo agent, Duncan. It's obvious that you "photo shopped" it so that that guy doesn't look a bit like Lee Harvey Oswald!"

--or--

"Dang! It's the Mexico City Mystery Man!"

--Tommy

PS Nice work, Duncan.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

Can the photos and still frames of the man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man" be further isolated and enhanced to determine if he has a v-neck t-shirt, a coke in his hand or any other specific fact that can help identify him further?

There does seem to be a glint here. A bottle?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Further confirmation that Prayer Man cannot be Otis Williams.

From Williams's March 1964 FBI statement:

On November 22, 1963 at the time the Presidential Motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building.

This also further confirms that Prayer Man cannot be Joe Molina either: Molina told the WC that Otis Williams was "[r]ight next left of me" on the steps.

In addition to the testimony of their locations on the steps, Molina was a Credit Manager, and Williams was a Book Keeping Supervisor. Both of these men would be expected to wear Tie/Dress Shirt/Suit to work. Prayer Man is wearing an unbuttoned shirt and has the appearance of a manual laborer. I think it is safe to dismiss Molina and Williams from consideration.

It is indeed, Richard--especially as both Williams and Molina can be fairly easily identified in the Altgens and Wiegman images standing just east of the centre rail.