Bill Simpich's State Secret

[Thomas Graves]

3 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

I think that the Impersonator making the phone call fully expected the name of Kostikov to be presented -- based on knowledge that he had of the USSR Embassy Operations.

The Impersonator was a CIA agent fully aware of the Mexico City politics at the Embassies.

I want to emphasize here that when the callee promptly delivered the name of Kostikov, the Impersonator immediately repeated that his name was "Lee Harvey Oswald."

Bingo.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

I don't mean to nitpick, but I think he said "Lee Oswald."

--  Tommy

[James DiEugenio]

PB: The information available makes it far more likely that JJA was indeed monitoring the defectors and trying to use them to his advantage, but without direct involvement with them. Bill Simpich seems to have started from the axiom that LHO was not automatically 'a spy', and that seems to me to be a better-grounded position.

If the above is accurate, then:

 

Why was he granted a security clearance when he had previously written a letter to to Socialist Party?

Why, after he had written this letter, was he sent to the large CIA base at Atsugi, Japan where the U2 flew out of?

Why was he on Detachment C guard duty over the U2 and why did he have training on the special height finder radar that could track to 80.000 feet?

And why did the WR say he had only a Confidential clearance if he was doing this stuff?

Why at Santa Ana, was he getting Pravda, playing Russian records, studying the Russian language and bragging about communism being the best system?  Did you ever meet a Marine like that?

If Oswald was not being recruited as an operative, then why--on top of the above-- was Oswald then getting Russian language training and testing in the service?  In other words, why do radar operators need to know Russian?

How well did Oswald know Russian?  Rosaleen Quinn, who had been training through Berlitz for a state Department job, said that Oswald spoke Russian better than she did.  Ernst Titovets, who Oswald met about 11 months after he defected, said Oswald spoke fluent Russian.  

When rifle virtuoso Dan Campbell visited Santa Ana, they asked him to stay overnight.  The C. O. escorted him over to Oswald's bunk and said, "You can sleep here, this Oswald guy is hardly ever here." (Dan recalled the name since he had been in an orphanage with Oswald as a youth.)

Why did Oswald visit the CID at El Toro several times when David Bucknell said that office was recruiting enlistees into ONI? Oswald told Bucknell the guy running him at El Toro was the same guy from Atsugi.  And that he expected to be sent to Russia after his discharge.

Why was there was no real inquiry into what Oswald was doing at El Toro after his defection? After that phony inquiry, Marine Jim Bothelho concluded that Oswald was sent on an intel mission to Moscow.

How, in California,  did Oswald know about Albert Schweitzer College in Churwalden, Switzerland when the FBI had no info on it, and the Swiss police took two months to find  it?

Why did Marguerite tell her treating doctor that Oswald was going to defect to Russia, nine months before he was discharged?

How did Oswald's hardship discharge take only ten days to approve, when the standard procedure took  3-6 months?  

With that fact in mind, why did Oswald even apply for a hardship discharge when he only had 4 months left on his contract?

Why, after he was discharged, did he then spend only 72 hours with his aggrieved mother in Fort Worth, if her medical condition was the reason he left the service?

If his mother in Fort Worth was the reason for his discharge, then why  did he apply for a passport seven days before he left the service?  He didn't need a passport to go to Fort Worth.

Why, on that passport, did he mention as two destinations, Albert Schweitzer and Finland?  Schweitzer looks more and more like a CIA front, and the embassy in Helsinki was the one capital in Europe that issued visas to Russia in 48 hours. How could Oswald know that in the service in California?

When Oswald got to Helsinki, why did he stay at the two most expensive hotels in the city, when--considering his meager finances-- he should have been staying at Motel 6? To give you an example, Nelson Rockefeller stayed at Oswald's  first hotel.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

The above only deals with Oswald in the military, and shortly after.

 I have not mentioned anything about his crucial association with Ferrie in the CAP, or the weirdness of his CIA file after his defection.  Or the fact that the KGB sniffed him out after his sorry performances at the Metropole for PJM and Mosby, when this so called commie did not even know when and where the Rosenbergs had been executed.  

I can understand PT dismissing all of this, and more, because of his agenda.  But Bill?  Really?

Edited March 29, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

I don't mean to nitpick, but I think he said "Lee Oswald."

--  Tommy

Tommy,

OK, fine, "Lee Oswald" instead of the fullsome, "Lee Harvey Oswald."

Yet let us not distract ourselves from the significant point here.  

As soon as The Impersonator (David Morales ?) maneuvered the USSR Embassy clerk into saying the name of KGB assassin Kostikov -- at that precise moment The Impersonator coupled the name of Kostikov with the impersonation itself, by adding, "This is Lee Oswald."

The linkage of the two names what precisely what was important.   The linkage of the two names in two seconds of time, so that the two names would appear on the wire-tapped telephone transcript RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER -- that was what was important.

I think David Morales did a beautiful job of that task -- don't you?

I think David Morales believed he did a beautiful job, too.

Unfortunately, the CIA translators for the most wire-tapped phone on the planet didn't think he did very well.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 29, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

PB: The information available makes it far more likely that JJA was indeed monitoring the defectors and trying to use them to his advantage, but without direct involvement with them. Bill Simpich seems to have started from the axiom that LHO was not automatically 'a spy', and that seems to me to be a better-grounded position.

If the above is accurate, then:

Why was he granted a security clearance when he had previously written a letter to to Socialist Party?

<snip>

James,

By the numbers:

1.  Writing a letter to the Socialist Party isn't grounds for denying a Security Clearance -- it depends upon the circumstances.

2.  US Marine Kerry Thornley testified to Oswald's well-known behavior at El Toro Marine Base, witnessed by plenty of senior officers.

3.  Sure, remarks were made about his Pravda newspapers and studying the Russian language in his barracks (using Berlitz, said Thornley), and the CO looked into it, and found it all very boring.  A free American can study any foreign language he likes.

4.  Oswald was not getting Russian training in the service.   After teaching himself with Berlitz, newspapers and records, Oswald did take the Russian language test -- obviously to test himself.  He flunked. 

5.  Kerry Thornley admitted that Oswald was an unusual guy -- but no more unusual than Thornley himself.  Thornely wasn't impressed with Oswald's intellect.  What impressed Thornley about Oswald was his "Beetle Bailey" attitude of talking back to the junior officers.

6.  Nobody ever said, James, that Oswald  "bragged about communism being the best system."  You made that part up.  Oswald was enraptured with the class consciousness of Karl Marx -- but as he always said -- even on TV -- "I'm a Marxist, however, that doesn't mean that I'm a Communist."

7.  In other words -- Oswald wanted to teach himself Russian to see if he could do it.   He was bored with the conversation of most Marines on the base.  Thornley said this.  Oswald could talk with Thornley on intellectual matters -- and few others.  Yet Oswald wasn't as bright as he thought, said Thornley, but more like a broken record.

8.  Some people testified that Oswald's Russian was surprisingly good.   Others said he made many grammatical errors in his speech, although he was fluent, and could carry on a wide range of conversations in Russian.  He had a thick accent and made many minor errors. 

9.  Some said Marina thought he spoke like a native Russian there in Minsk.  But that is no big deal, since Minsk had native Russians from all over Eastern Europe, like Poland, and many of them had terrible accents and faulty grammar.   Oswald's Russian accent sounded "Polish" to Peter Raidagorsky, for example.

10.  I admit the possibility, according to ex-CIA agent Victor Marchetti, that Oswald entered the USSR through a secret ONI program called "dangle."  It was a beginner's, training program involving, say, two dozen "dangles."  They never met, but were scattered around a geographic area, never knowing where or who the others were.  Their job was to identify persons of interest, and report centrally whether they had seen those persons in their geographic area.   That's it.  That's all.  A "dangle" was being trained to be a Team Player, alert and loyal.  To build the "dangle" profile on the persons of interest would take three years.  It was a three-year program, IIRC.

11.  It is possible that Oswald was an ONI "dangle".   But Oswald got married and applied to return to the USA after only two years -- probably breaking his ONI contract and so jeopardizing his Marine discharge status.

12.  Oswald had been smitten by the teenage Marina Oswald -- a child of an aristocratic grandmother who hated the USSR.   Marina wanted to rush to America.

13.  As for Albert Schweitzer college, James, everything looks like a CIA front to you.

14.  As for his two night stay in expensive hotels in Europe -- Oswald had THOUSANDS of dollars in his possession, because of his Marine savings.  He almost never went out on weekends like the other Marines -- being raised as a latch-key kid who did nothing but read all the time.  Also, his European trip was the very first time he was ever truly FREE for a few days.  

15.  When he was about 5-8 years old, Oswald's mother married a well-to-do engineer who traveled a lot, and they stayed in the finest hotels and resorts in America.  When she divorced him, Oswald lost all that.  Possibly Oswald wanted to remind himself of who he used to be.  In any case, it only lasted two days -- and Oswald had LOTS of money at the time.   (He had left his ailing mother only $100 of his huge savings.)

16.  So, you see, James, I don't dismiss all of it -- just the cloak-and-dagger part of your CIA-did-it CT. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 29, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

OK, fine, "Lee Oswald" instead of the fullsome, "Lee Harvey Oswald."

Yet let us not distract ourselves from the significant point here.  

As soon as The Impersonator (David Morales ?) maneuvered the USSR Embassy clerk into saying the name of KGB assassin Kostikov -- at that precise moment The Impersonator coupled the name of Kostikov with the impersonation itself, by adding, "This is Lee Oswald."

The linkage of the two names what precisely what was important.   The linkage of the two names in two seconds of time, so that the two names would appear on the wire-tapped telephone transcript RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER -- that was what was important.

I think David Morales did a beautiful job of that task -- don't you?

I think David Morales believed he did a beautiful job, too.

Unfortunately, the CIA translators for the most wire-tapped phone on the planet didn't think he did very well.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

Let's just be grateful he didn't say "Lee Hecksher Oswald," shall we?

--  Tommy

Edited March 29, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

On 1/24/2016 at 0:18 PM, Pamela Brown said:

I find it really annoying when researchers 'assume' and try to push the concept that LHO was part of a CIA defector program suposedly started by JJA. The information available makes it far more likely that JJA was indeed monitoring the defectors and trying to use them to his advantage, but without direct involvement with them. Bill Simpich seems to have started from the axiom that LHO was not automatically 'a spy', and that seems to me to be a better-grounded position.

Pamela,

This is also a valid perspective.  LHO may or may not have been part of an ONI "dangle" operation, as CIA agent Victor Marchetti supposed.  Either way, we can still develop a cogent portrait of LHO's trip to the USSR.

LHO was a maverick.  Marilyn Murret, his cousin in New Orleans, said that LHO read encyclopedias the way other people read novels.  (This is not uncommon among latch-key kids.)  Clearly, LHO was an unusually well-read high-school dropout.  Along with 007 novels, LHO liked to read Karl Marx.

This would make LHO out of place in most social circles in the USA.   Not only the USA, but also in the US Marines.   Rare -- but not unique. 

It was very rare to find somebody familiar with Marxism in the US Marines in the early 1960's, but LHO was one, and Kerry Thornley was another.  They had something in common and many conversations -- but ultimately Thornley thought of LHO as a broken record -- a dogmatist -- who could repeat what he read in Marx, but couldn't think beyond that.

What is interesting is how close this opinion by Kerry Thornley about LHO was, compared with the opinion of George DeMohrenschildt as expressed to the WC in 1964.   Here is what George testified:

------------ Begin Extract of WC Testimony of George De Mohrenschildt ------------------------

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist."  He kept on repeating it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him what he meant by that?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just the sound of that word is boring to me.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought Communism was?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.
Mr. JENNER. I see. It was your impression, then he could contribute nothing?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing...But when it comes to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again...
Mr. JENNER. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this reasoning of yours.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not take him seriously--that is all.
Mr. JENNER. I know you didn't. Why didn't you? ...
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was rather sincere.

Mr. JENNER. Opinion sincerely held, but crude?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so.
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability---that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.

------------ End Extract of WC Testimony of George De Mohrenschildt ------------------------

In a sense, however, LHO becomes even more impressive as an individualist and a maverick if we consider that LHO went into the USSR entirely on his own volition, without any organized effort from the ONI. 

For example, LHO's melodrama of slicing his wrists so that the USSR would take him seriously, and admit him into the country based strictly on pity -- that could be regarded as a clever move.   (The wounds were not very deep.)

Also, the fact that LHO never surrendered his US passport -- smart move.  Also, the fact that LHO enjoyed benefits like the newest apartment complex in Minsk, and additional monthly payments from the Red Cross.  Also, the fact that LHO never applied for Soviet citizenship.  Very smart.  Also, the fact that LHO refused to join the Communist Party there -- though continually invited.   Also smart.

All this must be seen as something more than good luck.   LHO had become quite a manipulator in his youth.   He was smooth in the USSR.

He would not be so smooth back in the USA -- or in Mexico City.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 29, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

PAUL TREJO wrote:

Quote

Also, the fact that LHO never surrendered his US passport -- smart move.  

Also, the fact that LHO never applied for Soviet citizenship.  Very smart.  

Also, the fact that LHO refused to join the Communist Party there -- though continually invited.   Also smart.

 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Warren Commission Exhibit 24. The Diary of LHO:

--------------------------------------------

Oct. 16. Arrive from Helsinki by train; am met by Intourest Repre. and in car to Hotel "Berlin". Reges. as. "studet" 5 day Lux. tourist. Ticket.) Meet my Intorist guied Rhimma Sherikova I explain to her I wish to appli. for Rus. citizenship. She is flabbergassed, but aggrees to help. She checks with her boss, main office Intour; than helps me add. a letter to Sup. Sovit asking for citizenship, mean while boss telephons passport & visa office and notifies them about me. 

---------------------------------------

Oct. 31. I make my dision. Getting passport at 12"O0 ..... I catch a taxi, "American Embassy" I say. 12"30, I arrive American Embassy, I walk in and say to the receptionist 'I would like to see the Consular" she points at a large lager and says "If you are a tourist please register". I take out my American passport and lay it in the desk, I have come to dissolve my American citizenship. I saymatter-of-factly she rises and enters the office of Richard Snyder American Head Consular in Moscow at that time. He invites me to sit down. He finishes a letter he is typing and than ask what he can do for me. I tell him I have decided to take Soviet citezenship and would like to dissolve my U.S. Citizenship.....

------------------------------------------

July - I decided to take my two week vacation and travel to Moscow (without police permission) to the American Embassy to see about geting my U. S. passport back and make arrangements for my wife to enter the U. S. with me.

------------------------------------------

There is no mention at all, in his diary, of joining the Communist Party, not joining the Communist Party, nor of being invited to join the Communist Party, much less being 'Continually invited to join the party", while in The USSR.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Michael Clark

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

 

I won't go over all your silly points above in reply to my questions.  Because anyone here can see that they are about as lame as you can get.  But just look at number four on your list about his training in Russian.  Your reply sounds exactly what John McAdams would say.   Why?

You say Oswald was not getting Russian training in the Marines.  Which is what someone like McAdams or Jean Davison would reply with since this is a dead giveaway be was being groomed for an intelligence mission.  

So you say, he trained himself in Russian.  Any expert will tell you, and Phil Melanson consulted an expert, Russian is a very difficult language to learn.  It almost necessitates some kind of classroom instruction or a tutor.  The idea that Oswald trained himself is simply ludicrous--for any rational person.  But since you are not rational, the shoe fits.

Secondly, you say he did not pass his test.  Which ignores the other evidence I advanced. (This technique of yours is essential to understanding you, and its again what McAdams or Jean Davison would do.)  That other evidence states that after he took the test he did an interview with R. Quinn who was in training for a State Dept. job and did have formal training for over a year.  She said he spoke better Russian than she did.  Eleven months after he got to Russia, Titovets talked to him and said, he spoke fluent Russian.  Your insistence on ignoring this evidence is a telltale sign of what you are up to here and why Tom Scully labels you as he does.

FInally, you also ignore the evidence of Mr. Campbell, which explains how LHO was getting his training in Russian. Which the WC knew was at Monterey.

If you think you are making converts in the lurker field with this kind of sorry and less than honest performance, I can assure you you are not.  All this does is raise flags about what you are actually doing here.

Edited March 30, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[B. A. Copeland]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul:

 

I won't go over all your silly points above in reply to my questions.  Because anyone here can see that they are about as lame as you can get.  But just look at number four on your list about his training in Russian.  Your reply sounds exactly what John McAdams would say.   Why?

You say Oswald was not getting Russian training in the Marines.  Which is what someone like McAdams or Jean Davison would reply with since this is a dead giveaway be was being groomed for an intelligence mission.  

So you say, he trained himself in Russian.  Any expert will tell you, and Phil Melanson consulted an expert, Russian is a very difficult language to learn.  It almost necessitates some kind of classroom instruction or a tutor.  The idea that Oswald trained himself is simply ludicrous--for any rational person.  But since you are not rational, the shoe fits.

Secondly, you say he did not pass his test.  Which ignores the other evidence I advanced. (This technique of yours is essential to understanding you, and its again what McAdams or Jean Davison would do.)  That other evidence states that after he took the test he did an interview with R. Quinn who was in training for a State Dept. job and did have formal training for over a year.  She said he spoke better Russian than she did.  Eleven months after he got to Russia, Titovets talked to him and said, he spoke fluent Russian.  Your insistence on ignoring this evidence is a telltale sign of what you are up to here and why Tom Scully labels you as he does.

FInally, you also ignore the evidence of Mr. Campbell, which explains how LHO was getting his training in Russian. Which the WC knew was at Monterey.

If you think you are making converts in the lurker field with this kind of sorry and less than honest performance, I can assure you you are not.  All this does is raise flags about what you are actually doing here.

Well said Jim. I just finished reading/listening to DB:2E and I must say, Trejo must've completely considered as untrue your section on LHO& Gen. Walker...

[Michael Clark]

On 3/29/2017 at 1:06 PM, Paul Trejo said:

LHO had become quite a manipulator in his youth.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, Your expertise in the area of manipulation is cancelled-out by your record of being incorrect when summarizing historical facts.

Score: Zero.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Well said Jim. I just finished reading/listening to DB:2E and I must say, Trejo must've completely considered as untrue your section on LHO& Gen. Walker...

B.A. Copeland,

You are quite right, sir.  James Di Eugenio has a completely backward opinion about LHO and General Walker. 

Also, James Di Eugenio's book, DB:2E (2013) has an unforgivably backward opinion about Ruth Paine and the Walker Letter.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[B. A. Copeland]

I actually was complimenting Jim D indirectly (laughs).

Edited March 30, 2017 by B. A. Copeland

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, we should also note that, in his silly reply, he uses Thornley not once, but twice.   This shows just how uninformed he is.  He apparently does not know that Thornley was indicted in New Orleans by Jim Garrison for perjury on two counts.  Garrison did not follow through on this, but from the evidence that survives its very likely that Thornley would have been convicted at trial.  Garrison had about seven witnesses to show that Thornley was lying about his relationship with Oswald. Author Joe Biles wrote a good book on this subject, which, among many others, PT has not read. 

As per Albert Schweitzer looking like a CIA front, consider the following, partly based on the documentary work of George M. Evica.

1.  ASC offered no degrees.

2. Hans Casparis, who moved the place to Churwalden,  advertised that he had three degrees from three universities and was  lecturer at the University of Zurich.   The problem is that when Evica contacted the U of Zurich, they had no record of such,  just as there are no graduation records on him from the colleges he said he graduated from.

3. One of the main financial benefactors of ASC was Percival Brundage. Brundage was a signatory for the purchase of Southern Air Transport airlines by the CIA.  He became one of SAT's major stockholders.

4. Casparis picked a very unusual locale for a college.  There was no bus or rail service into town; and the village had no library, hospital, fire department, or police station. There were 30 students in the entering class in 1955.  Not one was from Switzerland. This weird trait allowed ASC not to be registered or accredited with the Swiss government. 

5.  Because of this, the FBI attache could not find the place.  When it was passed off to Swiss police they took two months to find it.

6. ASC closed down in 1964 after being visited by agents involved in the WC inquiry. 

Predictably, PT finds none of the above the least bit fishy.

As per me making up the quote about Oswald saying communism was the best system in the world, that is right in the WR, p.686. (St. Martin's Press edition, 1991) And it comes from PT's  favorite witness, Thornley.

PT better think twice before he ever again accuses me of manufacturing information.  I consider that tactic from him to be a form of slander since it was  done in public with reckless disregard, which leads to malicious intent.

Edited March 30, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

Without a doubt the most absurd thing I've seen today is our dimwitted Mr. Trejo not even playing in the same state let alone ballpark as Jim continually open mouth and insert foot.

Paul - you're a disgrace to thinking people everywhere.  Whereas everything you offer is opinion, the rest of us prefer to find supporting evidence before posting.

At least you serve as a great example of how not to behave on a forum dedicated to EDUCATION.  It's posters like you who drive quality people away.

you must enjoy being that gnat on the bull's a$$...  maybe write an essay or two on your own and put them up for review...  see how you do

y'know?  

Edited March 30, 2017 by David Josephs