SAM KINNEY AND HIS WIFE HAZEL- DISTURBING KNOWLEDGE

[Vince Palamara]

Agent Sam Kinney's wife BELIEVED LBJ WAS INVOLVED IN JFK's MURDER...WHO SAT NEXT TO KINNEY IN THE FOLLOW-UP CAR? AGENT EMORY ROBERTS, LBJ'S EVENTUAL APPOINTMENT SECRETARY AND DEAR FRIEND---!

http://vincepalamara.com/2013/11/24/sam-kinney-and-his-wife-hazel-disturbing-knowledge/

[Vince Palamara]

more info

http://www.bobtuskin.com/2013/11/21/breaking-jfk-ss-agents-death-bed-confession/

[Ken Davies]

Wasn't Roberts the one who told the other agents to stay on the Queen Mary during the shooting?

[Chris Newton]

Wow. Thanks for the post Vince.

This news actually fits right in with what we have been debating on other threads concerning the path of CE399 and Gov. Connolly's injuries. So the fragment that lodged in his thigh was definitely from another bullet (possibly from the chest wound). This round may be the one that struck his wrist and then spent itself to eventually fall into the limo?

PS Sometimes I like Dr. Fetzer but can't he let someone reveal their own story without interjecting his sabot theory?

[Vince Palamara]

Correct, Ken.

You're welcome, Chris.

Yes- see my book. Roberts became unusually VERY close to LBJ afterwards.

[Chris Newton]

Vince,

It's unfortunate that Sam apparently did not record an affidavit or statement describing his actions. Unfortunately, these revelations will probably be dismissed as hearsay and not given the weight they deserve. I can see no reason, personally, for Sam's neighbor whom Sam counted as being one of his closest friends to make up this story. The proper way to have revealed this would have been to have a written statement given to an attorney with instructions to unseal it on his wife's death.

The fact that he found the bullet which became CE399 in the car and placed it and a skull fragment on the stretcher does not in itself destroy the SBT but his statement to you that Connolly was hit separate from Kennedy clearly does. His admission that he saw a shot, saw the smoke and heard the report from the grassy knoll is the blockbuster.

Maybe the skull fragment is the same one reportedly buried in one of the Parkland Dr.'s backyard?

[Vince Palamara]

Sam DID consent to being recorded twice (out of three times) when I interviewed him between 1992-1994. Here's one of the two recorded interviews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMdELC_UnpQ

[Robert Prudhomme]

Wow. Thanks for the post Vince.

This news actually fits right in with what we have been debating on other threads concerning the path of CE399 and Gov. Connolly's injuries. So the fragment that lodged in his thigh was definitely from another bullet (possibly from the chest wound). This round may be the one that struck his wrist and then spent itself to eventually fall into the limo?

PS Sometimes I like Dr. Fetzer but can't he let someone reveal their own story without interjecting his sabot theory?

Hi Chris

The sabot thing keeps popping up from time to time, doesn't it. While I know that, in your experience with tanks, you have likely fired the armour piercing dart encased in a 105 mm sabot, I too have had some small experience with sabots in hunting bullets. A few years back, ammunition manufacturers brought out sabot jacketed hunting ammunition to increase the versatility of a given calibre. In my case, with my .308 deer rifle (7.62 mm), it was possible to buy cartridges with .243 calibre slugs encased in a .308 sabot, effectively making a .243 out of a .308. When fired, of course, the sabot would peel away in four segments, allowing the slug to continue on its way. One school of thought actually believed the ballistics of the slug would be improved, as the .243 would have no rifling grooves on it to create drag, but this was never proven.

However, I have never quite grasped the reasoning behind the theory that 6.5 Carcano slugs were fired, encased in sabots, from larger calibre rifles in Dealey Plaza. Unlike my .243/.308 sabot slugs, the 6.5 mm slugs would have to first be fired from a 6.5 Carcano to establish rifling marks on them, or they would look somewhat suspicious when recovered. I know it sounds simple to "fire them into a tank of water" or "fire them into cotton wadding" but, I would be a bit concerned that even the impact with these media would distort the slug somewhat; much like CE 399.

And, even if you could recover a pristine bullet and encase it in a sabot, firing that saboted 6.5 mm slug from a rifle with a higher ballistic co-efficient is NOT going to impart that higher ballistic co-efficient to the 6.5 mm slug even with a higher muzzle velocity. Although muzzle velocity is a factor in calculating ballistic co-efficients, the primary reason the 6.5 Carcano has such a low b.c. is the slug itself. It is long, heavy (for its calibre), has a round nose and a flat bottom. You might gain a few hundred feet per second in muzzle velocity but, at a range of 100 yards, is this really an advantage? Worth going to all of the trouble of encasing a fired Carcano slug in a sabot?

Here is one for you. The word "sabot" in French means "wooden shoe" and the word "sabotage" is derived from it. During the Industrial Revolution, disgruntled French workers, wearing their sabots, often looked for ways to disable the machines they worked on in factories, without being caught. One way was to let one of your sabots "slip" into the gearworks which were often made from wood, breaking them. This became so common, it was eventually referred to as "sabotage".

[Chris Newton]

Thanks Vince,

I actually listened to that last night twice. The second time I sucked it into iMovie and normalized the audio so you guys were closer in levels. Telephone interviews can be annoying when the both parties aren't at the same volume. In that interview I think I heard him claim he had found the skull fragment in the car while on the trip to DC and given it to Admiral Buckley. Obviously he didn't want to confess to you what he later told his neighbor so he fudged a bit.

I wish we had known about his putting the bullet on the stretcher. It would be nice to know if it was a pointy nosed round or the round we see in evidence now.

Robert,

Thanks for your info. I have seen some sabot hunting rounds too but I've never used them. Of course, I'm quite intimate with both the 105mm and 120mm variety. The 105mm rifled gun we used in early M1 tanks was so accurate that I could put a round inside a 2 ft. circle a mile down range. The 120mm smoothbore has an unbelievable muzzle velocity but at the cost of little accuracy - not enough to make a difference - most armor engagements that require a sabot occur inside 1200 meters.

I don't really know the story behind Dr. Fetzer's theory. I was just griping about the fact that he had to plug it during this other guy's interview.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Chris Newton]

Because many different witnesses that saw smoke in the vicinity of the knoll did not report hearing the gunshot that I had speculated a lot on what type of weapon might have been used at that location. My gut feeling was that the Delisle carbine was the most likely candidate.

With Kinney's now apparent emphatic recollection made to his neighbor that he saw and HEARD the gunshot as well as the smoke from the vicinity of the knoll, the odds that a silenced weapon was used there is diminished greatly. I also recently acquired a complete copy of Lane's film Rush to Judgement and so many witnesses reported that the shot came from the knoll that it now makes sense that the weapon used in that location was not silenced.

I sell believe that the round that hit JFK in the temple region was most likely fired from the knoll and is probably a heavy caliber sub sonic round such as the .45.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Chris Newton

[Tom Neal]

New Member -- First Post:

Sam Kinney told Gary Loucks that he found an undamaged bullet in JFK's limo. An undamaged bullet could be positively matched to the gun that fired it, and hopefully identify the assassin. It's location in the limo is vital to reconstructing the crime. So what does Kinney do with the most important piece of evidence found? He secretly deposits it on JFK's(?) stretcher, and never tells anyone. This action destroys the chain of evidence, and provides evidence contrary to the actual event. I can't believe he blatantly violated established procedure without a DAMN good reason...

Ideally he would have left it untouched at the crime scene, and reported it to Roberts or Kellerman. However, the limo was about to be driven to the airport and loaded onto a C-130, so noting it's location and turning it in to SS would have been an acceptable alternative.

So what does he accomplish by secretly leaving the bullet on the stretcher? The bullet doesn't go to Washington, it stays in Texas. It would end up with the Dallas police as they had jurisdiction at that time - unless it was not noticed at all, and inadvertantly thrown away. A risky plan, but it would be kept out of SS hands. Of course, this only makes sense if Kinney ALREADY believed SS was complicit in the assassination, and could not be trusted with important evidence. Additionally, I recall his statement to Vince P. that he found a large rear skull fragment in the limo during the C-130 flight back to DC. He says he turned it in to his good friend Admiral Burkley. Why didn't he turn THAT evidence in to SS either?

Speculation of course, but I'm at a loss how to otherwise explain his actions.

Alternate theories gratefully accepted...

Tom

[Vince Palamara]

Welcome aboard, Tom! )

This Loucks fellow SOUNDS credible, for what it's worth. That said, with all due modesty, I trust my three interviews with Sam (two of which are on tape) a tad more..but, again, Loucks does sound credible, so who knows?

IIf you read my book (especially a section in chapter 8), there is much reason to question to provenance of CE399 regardless of these late revelations.

[Tom Neal]

Welcome aboard, Tom! )

Thanks, Vince. Hopefully, I won't wear out my welcome too soon!

This Loucks fellow SOUNDS credible

Agreed. I'm convinced he's relaying the information he was given, at least to the degree that he understands the case and all of its nuances. From the way Loucks summarizes his facts, his goal for that interview was to make three items clear:

1.)Sam Kinney emphatically confirms a shot from the Knoll.

2.)CE399 (did SK actually refer to it as 399?) was taken from the limo by SK and placed on a stretcher

3.)SK believed there was a conspiracy because one man couldn't have done it alone

That said, with all due modesty, I trust my three interviews with Sam (two of which are on tape) a tad more..

For sure. He was speaking on the record with you, and essentially having a conversation with Loucks. At that time, was Loucks familiar enough with the case to realize the implications of SK's statements? It *appears* that he is unaware of the broken chain of evidence for CE399, as he states that the "50 year old mystery" is now solved.

OTOH, you knew exactly what questions to ask, to get the most from SK's responses. Unfortunately, SK didn't fully explain everything he knew. I have been through your interviews and SK doesn't explain for example what Burkley did with the LARGE rear skull fragment. IF it was sent to Bethesda, they haven't admitted to it. We can only speculate as to its final disposition, and why SK would not supply further details.

It seems unlikely that Kinney washed the rear seat in Dallas, finding a bullet and skull fragments in the process, but didn't notice the large skull fragment that he later found in the limo on the flight back to DC, but it certainly is possible. Do you consider Loucks info as contradicting this earlier info from SK?

If you read my book (especially a section in chapter 8), there is much reason to question to provenance of CE399 regardless of these late revelations.

You book is absolutely essential to understanding the goings on in the SS, and I have read it thoroughly.

A court would conclude that an entirely different bullet was found on the stretcher at Parkland. The broken chain of evidence suggests that either SS or the FBI sustituted CE399 for the original. At the very least it would be excluded as evidence, which would remove the link of the "LHO rifle" to the assasination.

Considering your SS knowledge and contacts with SK, I imagine Gary Louckes would be eager to speak with you to "get the info out," as he promised his friend Sam, that he would. Certainly someone should contact him to get all the info he has, and you are the most logical choice.

Although I'm hungry for whatever additional info he can provide, I'm not the best choice for this task, so I'm holding myself back - - for the moment.

Tom

[Vince Palamara]

_{My off-the-record opinion (which IS on the record, I suppose..since I am posting here haha) is that Loucks IS credible. My on-the-record opinion is: tantalizing but lacks hard proof; I am torn}

[Michael Clark]

On 11/24/2013 at 6:36 PM, Vince Palamara said:

Agent Sam Kinney's wife BELIEVED LBJ WAS INVOLVED IN JFK's MURDER...WHO SAT NEXT TO KINNEY IN THE FOLLOW-UP CAR? AGENT EMORY ROBERTS, LBJ'S EVENTUAL APPOINTMENT SECRETARY AND DEAR FRIEND---!

http://vincepalamara.com/2013/11/24/sam-kinney-and-his-wife-hazel-disturbing-knowledge/

This link doesn't work anymore. I am trying to find it. If anyone has a good link, please post!

Cheers,

Michael