Heavy Set, Middle-Aged Man Put in Police Car …

[Richard Hocking]

In November of 1963, Jim Underwood and George “Sandy” Sanderson were cameramen for KRLD in Dallas. KRLD was the CBS affiliate for their Dallas coverage. In the Presidential Motorcade, Jim Underwood was in the middle front seat of Camera Car Number 3. This is the same Chevy convertible that James Darnell, Malcolm Couch, and Robert Jackson rode in, sitting in back, on top of the trunk. Sanderson was at Love Field when AF1 arrived and filmed JFK there. He later ends up in Dealey Plaza.

KRLD photo of Sanderson in

Link below also shows photo of Underwood:

http://www.akdart.com/vtr/vtr6.html

Bob Huffaker says Sanderson was 65 years old in 1963 and used a 16 mm hand held Bell & Howell Camera that shot silent film.

- from the Foreward of “Into the Newsroom: Exploring the Digital Production of Regional Tellevison News” by Emma Hemmingway

Underwood and Sanderson shared the same hand-held 16mm Bell & Howell camera in Dealey Plaza. Underwood filmed some of the activity on the Grassy Knoll in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. There is reason to believe Sanderson may have filmed some of the activity in front of the TSBD.

Willis photo 15 shows a group of people standing in the intersection of Houston and Elm with the Dal-Tex building in the background. On the far right of the photo, there is a man holding a 16 mm camera facing the TSBD.

Could this man be Sandy Sanderson? He is in the right location, at the right time, with a camera that could have taken some interesting footage.

On 1/24/68, Investigator Stephen Jaffe wrote a memo to Jim Garrison after interviewing Richard E. Sprague, that contained the following:

“Darnell told Sprague that he had gotten footage of a man who was being arrested, described the man as being middle-aged, a little bit husky. He said the police put him in the squad car on the Southwest corner of Houston and Elm Streets, and turned him loose after a few minutes. He further described the man who was taken into custody as being a white man, not dark complexioned.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Jaffe%20Stephen%20Personal%20Memos/Item%2008.pdf

Another Jaffe memo dated 1/26/68 stated:

“Television cameraman Sandy Sanderson had taken film footage for KRLD in 16mm including an arrest and also including film of the finding of the rifle. Sprague has viewed the film by Sanderson and said that these important scenes have been omitted and no longer exist, at least for public viewing.”

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Jaffe%20Stephen%20Personal%20Memos/Item%2011.pdf

Note that the memo above seems to place the arrest in the same context as the rifle being found.

A Sprague memo dated 1/10/68 contains some of the same info as the 1/24/68 Jaffe memo, but adds a few observations:

“He [Darnell] ran up the knoll and into the parking lot with Roger Craig and

can confirm Craig's testimony. He was shooting footage all the way.

He also took footage of an important arrest, a heavy-set, middle aged

white man who was put in a police car at the corner of Houston and Elm. This was not Larry Florer, or Danny Arce or Charles Givens.”

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2020.pdf

Don Cook of KTVT is also included as having taken footage of the arrest and “extra rifle”.

Sprague says that Willis 10 shows the arrest of this man.

So, who is the man who was put into the Police car?

We have film and photos of Arce, Williams, and Shelley being escorted into a different car, so we know it is not one of them. Charles Givens has also been specifically excluded. That leaves Billy Lovelady and Jack Dougherty from the group that was taken in for police interviews. But Billy Lovelady was only 26 years old in 1963, a bit young to fit the “middle-aged” description.

In his Warren Commission testimony of April 8, 1964, Jack Dougherty said he was 40 years old. Roy Truly described Jack as a “great big husky fellow”.

Was Jack Dougherty the “Heavy set, middle-aged man” placed in the Police car?

And if not Jack, then who?

I have, thus far, been unable to locate the film sequence attributed to Sandy Sanderson by Sprague, or any still photos that captured this event, but I am still looking.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Robert Howard]

In one of the recent JFK Specials that aired there is a short film clip where a man wearing a hardhat is escorted in handcuffs behind his back from an area front and a little to the left of the TSBD, by officials. I have been researching the JFK assassination for decades and never seen or read about this. Note from what little I could see in this clip he did not appear to be the person known as hardhat man, but another person. I believe it is extremely significant, by virtue of the fact that if he was handcuffed behind his back

he was not a witness being taken in for questioning. It begs the question, how could something like this have happened and 50 years later nobody knows about it.

[Richard Hocking]

In one of the recent JFK Specials that aired there is a short film clip where a man wearing a hardhat is escorted in handcuffs behind his back from an area front and a little to the left of the TSBD, by officials. I have been researching the JFK assassination for decades and never seen or read about this. Note from what little I could see in this clip he did not appear to be the person known as hardhat man, but another person. I believe it is extremely significant, by virtue of the fact that if he was handcuffed behind his back

he was not a witness being taken in for questioning. It begs the question, how could something like this have happened and 50 years later nobody knows about it.

Thanks for the reply, Robert.

"To the left" of the TSBD (viewed from the front) would indicate to me the Knoll or the Rail Yard. The man you describe may have been a Rail Road employee, or someone dressed to look like one. I do not recall ever seeing this clip, so if you recall the program, I would be interested.

Your "50 year" observation hits home. I will probably be watching the Cook/Cooper films again. I notice something new just about every time I look at that film.

[Todd W. Vaughan]

The man with the camera in Willis 15 is not Sandy Sanderson. It is likely Steve Perringer who, like Sanderson, worked at KRLD and went to Dealey Plaza in a KRLD news station wagon with Joe Scott, also of KRLD. Both Perringer and Scott used the same camera to film scenes in front of the TSBD. Scott also made radio reports to KRLD.

Sanderson, who had been on Main Street filming, was wearing a lighter colored plaid sport coat and hat. The Cooper film has footage showing Sanderson and Underwood in front of the TSBD talking to each other. Sanderson also appears in one of the Murray photos.

[Richard Hocking]

The man with the camera in Willis 15 is not Sandy Sanderson. It is likely Steve Perringer who, like Sanderson, worked at KRLD and went to Dealey Plaza in a KRLD news station wagon with Joe Scott, also of KRLD. Both Perringer and Scott used the same camera to film scenes in front of the TSBD. Scott also made radio reports to KRLD.

Sanderson, who had been on Main Street filming, was wearing a lighter colored plaid sport coat and hat. The Cooper film has footage showing Sanderson and Underwood in front of the TSBD talking to each other. Sanderson also appears in one of the Murray photos.

Thanks for that information, Todd.

I went through the Murray photos and there is a figure in one that matches your description of Sanderson. He looks older than 65, so I am not positive. There is a picture of Joe Scott on the KRLD Personalities page, but I have not been able to find any comparison photo for Perringer.

Since you are knowledgeable about film shot in the aftermath, I have a question that, perhaps you could answer. When the Cook/Cooper films were turned in, they were described as having 45 minutes of footage. I have gone through the Youtube 7 part videos showing excerpts from the film Don Cook shot. I would guess maybe 10 minutes of Cook footage actually appears. Is there any way to see what is on the rest of the film?

Likewise, I have not been able to locate any of the film that Sanderson/Underwood shot in front of the TSBD, and from your description, possibly Perringer. There are several references to the Heavy set, Middle-aged man being put into the police car that should be somewhere in that footage.

[Robert Howard]

Richard, I was able to get more details about what it was that I saw over the Thanksgiving Holidays, what I had never seen

was what aired in a sequence from The Lost JFK Tapes. Personally, I would watch all of it. But there is a sequence of filmclips

starting at around 30 minutes into the video then ending at when a journalist interviews the Dallas Police Department's J. W. Sawyer.

There is a fast-paced series of clips which includes something I had never seen, it looks like although I cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt, but it looks like Detective E. R. "Buddy" Walthers bringing out from the direction of the knoll, with a man in a hardhat

in handcuffs, [sure appears like it] there are others also who look suspicious, and I am not talking about Acre & the other TSBD workers, at least the real high-profile ones. Somebody needs to find out what is going on, I know some of these are the Cook-Cooper films as seen on youtube. but what I have seen in the above show I haven't seen on youtube.com yet

[James Richards]

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

[Richard Hocking]

Richard, I was able to get more details about what it was that I saw over the Thanksgiving Holidays, what I had never seen

was what aired in a sequence from The Lost JFK Tapes. Personally, I would watch all of it. But there is a sequence of filmclips

starting at around 30 minutes into the video then ending at when a journalist interviews the Dallas Police Department's J. W. Sawyer.

There is a fast-paced series of clips which includes something I had never seen, it looks like although I cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt, but it looks like Detective E. R. "Buddy" Walthers bringing out from the direction of the knoll, with a man in a hardhat

in handcuffs, [sure appears like it] there are others also who look suspicious, and I am not talking about Acre & the other TSBD workers, at least the real high-profile ones. Somebody needs to find out what is going on, I know some of these are the Cook-Cooper films as seen on youtube. but what I have seen in the above show I haven't seen on youtube.com yet

Robert, I watched most of The Lost JFK Tapes, but I missed the sequence discussed in your post. It will be showing again in a few days. I will try to pay better attention this time.

[Richard Hocking]

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

James, I am not sure I have seen that photo before. Do you know which part of Dealey Plaza the shot was taken at?

[James Richards]

Richard,

It is on Elm Street looking toward the grassy knoll.

James

[Thomas Graves]

I have always wondered what is going on in the top left of this frame. It seems to have to attention of several of the other people standing around.

James,

It looks like the lady standing about a third of the way up the slope might be yelling something at somebody farther up the hill in the crowd (or asking somebody a question), maybe even the tall black guy who's wearing a light-colored cap and standing in the upper left corner of the photo.

It would be interesting if she was yelling at him, because I'm pretty sure he's the same black guy visible in a Cancellare photo (the one that shows "E. Howard Hunt" wearing sunglasses, trench coat, and fedora in the middle of Elm Street) , walking on the other side of Elm with the two "Rip Robertson" and "John Adrian O'Hare" characters towards the grassy knoll; the same "Robertson" and "O'Hare" - looking guys who were photographically "captured" standing on the Houston Street sidewalk, watching the limo pass in front of them. As I pointed out a few years ago, these two suited and fedora-wearing guys were also "captured" in a photo walking up the far end of this very same slope towards the TSBD, and they were then "captured" in yet another photo showing them listening intently to Howard Brehem Brennan talking to a policeman in the area of the Elm Street Extension...

Anyway, it just seems to me that the people at the top of the slope in the photo you posted are all looking at the woman who's standing about a third of the way up the hill and has got her head turned towards the tall black guy, and I wouldn't be surprised if she's asking him a question or two.

--Tommy

Edited December 3, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Howard]

Regarding the woman in the preceding posts: Again, I go back to The Lost JFK Tapes;

at 26:05 the Dallas television commentators [perhaps Jay Watson] is quoted

as saying "a man and a woman fired the shots."

All of what is being discussed here, on this thread is only going to become more

and more discussed the possibility that some of the footage that aired

during these JFK Specials especially...The Lost JFK Tapes had never

been seen by most of us; possible because the Cooper series films weren't

released by the ARRB until 1996 or 1998, I think this is only going to continue

to receive attention, Unless you believe Oswald acted alone. Which is becoming

a very unpopular belief.

[Richard Hocking]

Earlier in this thread, I drew a parallel between the heavy set, middle-aged man arrested, and the description of Jack Dougherty. Sprague claims the Willis 10 photo shows this arrest. The Clint Bradford site (if correct) would place the time of Willis 10 around, or just before, 12:45.

I will be adding the scene submitted in James Richard's photo, and discussed by Tommy, as one more item that hopefully appears in The Lost JFK Tapes, (along with the Hard-hat man described by Robert Howard).

I thought it might be useful to create a list of persons known to have been arrested or placed in police cars in Dealey Plaza in the aftermath of the shooting, along with supporting evidence:

Bonnie Ray Williams - testimony; photo in back seat of police car

Danny Arce - testimony; photo in back seat of police car

William Shelley - testimony; photo in back seat of police car

Billy Lovelady - testimony;

Charles Givens - testimony;

Jack Dougherty - testimony;

Larry Florer - testimony; photos

Jim Braden - testimony;

3 Tramps - testimony; photos

3 other un-named tramps from rail yard? - my recollection. Need to verify this

Heavy set, Middle aged man - testimony of Darnell, Sprague; Said to be filmed by Sanderson and possibly others

Hard-hat man in cuffs - Robert Howard noticed him in The Lost JFK Tapes.

Old Gent crossing Elm w Police escort - photo

Woman arrested by Roger Craig in Parking Lot behind TSBD - testimony of Craig

If anyone else can add to the above ...

Edits: added names to list

Edited December 4, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[James Richards]

Richard,

There is also this older gent here.

James

[Richard Hocking]

Richard,

There is also this older gent here.

James

James,

That man bears a strong resemblance to Marlin Perkins of the old "Wild Kingdom" TV show. Perkins would have been 58 years old in 1963. I may have seen him in another photo in Dealey Plaza. Good find. Will add him to the list.