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Greg Burnham

ABC News: JFK Limo Stopped

43 posts in this topic

Click here or on image below to read more from Doug Horne's latest article on the limo stop.

BobClark.png

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Greg,

I have much of Doug Horne's work. I do not agree with everything he says but I also do not dismiss everything he says.

However here he is wrong. I believe the break light appears to be on because the sun is shining through it. If I remember correctly the procession on Houston street did stop, because every vehicle had to slow down to turn onto elm but everything else slowed.

The idea that the car stopped is focused on the point that Bill Greer was in on the plot. I have never been convinced about that.

I do not deny there are witnesses who state that the car stopped, but I have never found that convincing.

James.

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Don't you mean to say that in your opinion here he is wrong?

Moreover are you aware that the direction of the sun's light can be determined by the shadows cast in Dealey Plaza that day? If you recall the shadows on the actual road itself, as seen from Altgens' POV, are from right (south) to left (north)* as evidenced by the shadows of Brehm & son, Moorman & Hill, etc. If the sun was "shining through" causing this lit up effect it would be apparent to those on the other side of the street (North side of Elm). It would not be apparent to those on the south side of the street. The light would have to wrap around the opposite side of the car to shine through to those on the south side of the street. If anything those on the south side of the street might see a reflection off of the plastic surface of the lens, but that would not appear as light coming from the inside of the lens.

Altgens6.jpg

The car stopped. And that's not just my opinion either.

*Although I said the shadows are from right to left (south to north) I do not mean to imply an exact trajectory. An exact trajectory is unnecessary for the purposes of this discussion. The point is that the light source (the sun) is not high in the sky at noon in Dallas in November. It has already begun a descent. If you drove a car down Elm Street on any clear November 22nd afternoon, which I have done repeatedly, you'll note the location of the sun is more or less at an angle toward your front left--IOW: south - southwest.

post-6307-0-48522600-1409933436_thumb.jpg

Edited by Greg Burnham

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To show that there’s more than just one side to the “Limo Stopped” story, here is an interview with assassination eyewitness Pierce Allman, a WFAA newsman, who said —— “The car kept going; the car did not stop.”

Also note Allman’s account of the spacing of the "THREE" shots he heard —— “The shots didn’t seem rapid at all. They were three well-spaced, reverberating shots.”

This interview with Allman was aired live on WFAA-Radio in Dallas less than 90 minutes after President Kennedy was shot:

Of course, the whole "Limo Stopped" topic that is constantly being dredged up by conspiracy theorists is ridiculous in the first place, because everybody agrees (and the films confirm this too) that the President's car was moving at a snail's pace the entire time it was on Elm Street. It was only moving at about 11 MPH even BEFORE the first shot was fired. That's incredibly slow to begin with.

So I guess it must be the contention of the conspiracists that driver William Greer was deliberately driving at a super-slow speed all along Elm Street, and he then (per the CTers) completely stopped the car in order for the kill shot to be achieved with greater accuracy (even though the Nix and Zapruder films prove the car did not completely stop).

Such accusations against SS agent Greer are despicable, of course. And the theory about the Zapruder Film being altered to "remove" the alleged limo stop is equally as ludicrous, because such a theory requires Orville Nix's film to be altered in the exact same manner. And as the following video demonstrates, the Zapruder and Nix films are in perfect "The limo slowed down and almost came to a stop, but it did not come to a complete stop" harmony:

DVP's JFK Archives / Assassination Arguments (Part 786)

Edited by David Von Pein

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I think it was a very near stop, which is quite bad enough. Past the Stemmons sign, among sparse crowd and with the highway ramp just ahead, there was no excuse for driving so slowly that a stop could be debatable, especially once shots were suspected.

What could a driver do in open space as an alternative to getting out of there? Press the brake like an old man who had experienced a rear bumper kiss, then turn and look over his shoulder? That's what Greer did.

This doesn't prove non-complicity. Every motion Greer made on Elm Street is suspect, including (with Kellerman) turning to look rather than punching it, or in Kellerman's case, not ordering it punched.*.

I'm sure that from the Press Bus and to others on the street expecting faster progress it appeared to be a full stop - but I think that Clint Hill's jump, landing and sprint tells us that it was not. Was the Queen Mary not still moving, and still not quite closing on the limo's bumper?

Slowing to around 5 MPH, however, is equivalent to a stop in terms of culpability. Driver, drive.

*Was Kellerman, by Secret Service protocol, in tactical command of the driver? Vince Palamara?

Edited by David Andrews

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Chilling

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FWIW, it's pretty clear to me the limo slowed almost to a stop, and that three of the motorcycles came to a complete stop. So why did this happen? Well, two non-suspicious possibilities occur to me. 1) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were, turned around to see if everything was OK, and took his foot off the gas as he did so. This seems reasonable but avoids that he almost certainly applied the brakes as well. 2) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were and where they came from, saw all the people up on the bridge in front of him, was momentarily concerned he was driving into an ambush, and tapped the brakes as he looked back to see what was going on. This makes the most sense, IMO.

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Predictably on cue.

And--predictably--Gary offers up perfectly reasonable analysis.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Limousine driver William Greer to Jackie Kennedy at Parkland Hospital:

"Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it, I didn't hear, I should have swerved the car, I couldn't help it. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it I swerved. If only I'd seen it in time."

Many witnesses also saw the limo swerve to the left, although the Zapruder film shows no such thing.

Think Greer was on LSD that day, too, Dave?

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FWIW, it's pretty clear to me the limo slowed almost to a stop, and that three of the motorcycles came to a complete stop. So why did this happen? Well, two non-suspicious possibilities occur to me. 1) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were, turned around to see if everything was OK, and took his foot off the gas as he did so. This seems reasonable but avoids that he almost certainly applied the brakes as well. 2) Greer heard sounds but wasn't sure what they were and where they came from, saw all the people up on the bridge in front of him, was momentarily concerned he was driving into an ambush, and tapped the brakes as he looked back to see what was going on. This makes the most sense, IMO.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

I agree, Pat.

--Tommy :sun

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Please take into account that witness testimony can be incorrect.

Consider the sinking of the RMS Titanic. She broke apart, yet two of the ship's officers, Charles Lightoller (2nd) and Herbert Pitman (3rd) said she went down intact. They were there, and they were wrong.

"Senator SMITH. Was the vessel broken in two in any manner, or intact?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Absolutely intact.
Senator SMITH. On the decks?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Intact, sir."

" Senator SMITH. Did you see the Titanic go down?
Mr. PITMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator SMITH. Describe, if you can, how she sank?
Mr. PITMAN. Judging by what I could see from a distance, she gradually disappeared until the forecastle head was submerged to the bridge. Then she turned right on end and went down perpendicularly.
Senator SMITH. Did she seem to be broken in two.
Mr. PITMAN. Oh, no."

http://wormstedt.com/titanic/The_Facts.html

Kathy

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Yup, Kathy, the witnesses were all wrong, and even more of a hoot, they all claim to have seen the same thing.

Were they handing out LSD on Elm St. that day, or do you think it was mass hypnosis?

Clinical studies of eyewitnesses clearly show that witnesses are incapable of perfect recall, and will often make mistakes about what they observed. However, I defy you to find a study showing eyewitnesses mistakenly reporting the same thing.

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Thomas and Pat

And the swerve?

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