James DiEugenio Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 BTW Tom was not this the theme of the movie The Package? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 BTW Tom was not this the theme of the movie The Package? Hi There Jim, I have not seen that, so I googled it. Is that the 1989 movie with Gene Hackman and Tommy Lee Jones? It's certainly a GREAT cast, and the plot sounds good. I'm sure going to try to find it and have a look. In the assassination genre my favorites are "The Parallax View", "Seven Days in May" and "The Manchurian Candidate." Are the any others I should watch? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 My two favorites in the fictional assassination genre are The Manchurian Candidate and The Parallax View. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 My two favorites in the fictional assassination genre are The Manchurian Candidate and The Parallax View. I'm pleased to hear someone else likes "The Parallax View" as much as I do. It should be required viewing, yet it's rare to encounter someone who's actually seen it... Jim, Have you read "The Double Man" by Senators William Cohen and Gary Hart? That's next in my stack, and I'm hoping it's as good as it should be based upon the storyline... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 My favorite "lesser known" assassination related flics are "Executive Action", "Flashpoint", "Suddenly" (1954 version) and the "Odessa File". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 My favorite "lesser known" assassination related flics are "Executive Action", "Flashpoint", "Suddenly" (1954 version) and the "Odessa File". Hi Chris, I can't believe I had forgotten about "Executive Action". Thanks for mentioning "Flashpoint" - I'd never heard of it. I just finished watching it on Youtube. Very well done, and quite plausible. Great explanation by Rip Torn at the end: "I just done what I was told." I can't help but wonder, how many of those who were actually involved would have *truthfully* made that statement? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 No, I have not read that book Tom, though I heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Doyle Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Well, the truth did not have to be withheld to protect the far right as far as you are capable of defining it. But it did have to be withheld to protect the actual, non bubble world Right Wing. You artificially limit the scope of who JFK's enemies were and what they were capable of and who they were truly aligned with. You mention Seven Days in May and then conflate that idea, that JFK was worried about his own generals, with Edwin Walker, and don't even give a glance in the direction of LeMay and Lemnitzer. It's a fantasy to think that Allen Dulles, J Edgar Hoover and others were heroes who saved us from Civil War. But - doesn't the current president, whoever that is, have the right to assert their own authority over GHWB? I believe so. Anyone know otherwise? No, the Truth wasn't withheld to protect the Radical Right -- but to prevent riots in the streets during the Cold War. National Security. J. Edgar Hoover figured out who the JFK KIllers were by 3pm on 11/22/1963 -- when Dallas served up Lee Harvey Oswald and labeled him a Communist and an officer of the FPCC. Hoover had a fat file on LHO, and knew right away that: (1) LHO was never a Communist; and (2) LHO was never an officer of the FPCC. But Hoover did know that LHO was in New Orleans that summer, and that the FPCC that LHO was involved with in New Orleans was FAKE. We know this because Hoover himself told the WC in his testimony. That means that Hoover knew who was behind the JFK assassination -- the same people who were framing LHO as a Communist. That was why Hoover came up with the "Lone Nut" fiction about LHO by 3pm on 11/22/1963 (according to Professor David Wrone). He knew damn well that General Walker and the Radical Right were the culprits. Hoover chose to deny the JFK Killers their ultimate goal -- to blame the Communists for the JFK assassination. Yet even today -- a half-century later -- the dupes of the JFK Killers are still trying to link LHO and Marina with the KGB. By the way, General Walker and the Birchers also wanted to link LHO with the CIA -- which for them was the same as the KGB. This was said word-for-word in the WC testimony of Revilo P. Oliver. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, I can agree with you that Gen. Walker is a person of interest in the larger texture of the JFK event, but to think that Walker had a primary roll, or any roll for that matter, is quite a stretch. Do you really think that if Walker was a player in the assassination conspiracy that, after he was arrested twice in the mid-1970's for cruising public restrooms looking for homosexual sex, he would be continued to be tolerated by the other conspirators. Look what happen to John Roselli and George de Mohrenschildt during the HSCA hearings (also) in the mid 1970's. With all that has been written about the untimely deaths of many of the key witnesses not to mention the death of Dorothy Kilgallen and the murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer, if Gen Walker was who you want to make him out to be, he surely would have been liquidated in the Cover-up as a security risk. That did not happen. He lived to a ripe old age of 84 and died in 1993. So either Gen. Walker had some major juju going to mitigate the security risk he posed to the other conspirators or he was inconsequential. I choose to believe the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) Paul, I can agree with you that Gen. Walker is a person of interest in the larger texture of the JFK event, but to think that Walker had a primary roll, or any roll for that matter, is quite a stretch. Do you really think that if Walker was a player in the assassination conspiracy that, after he was arrested twice in the mid-1970's for cruising public restrooms looking for homosexual sex, he would be continued to be tolerated by the other conspirators. Look what happen to John Roselli and George de Mohrenschildt during the HSCA hearings (also) in the mid 1970's. With all that has been written about the untimely deaths of many of the key witnesses not to mention the death of Dorothy Kilgallen and the murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer, if Gen Walker was who you want to make him out to be, he surely would have been liquidated in the Cover-up as a security risk. That did not happen. He lived to a ripe old age of 84 and died in 1993. So either Gen. Walker had some major juju going to mitigate the security risk he posed to the other conspirators or he was inconsequential. I choose to believe the latter. Dan, It's a good question. IMHO lots of people knew that Walker was gay for many years -- just like they knew that J. Edgar Hoover was gay for many years -- just like they knew that JFK was a playboy for many years -- all without printing a single word. The early 1960's were a different time. IMHO, J. Edgar Hoover knew that General Walker and Guy Banister were the leaders of the JFK assassination by 3pm CST on 11/22/1963. Also, by 1967, General Walker was already considered a nutty old man -- finding a Communist Plot in everything and everybody. His ending came when Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren ruled against Walker in the famous case, Edwin Walker vs the Associated Press (1967). If Walker would have won that case, he would have become a millionaire. Earl Warren made double sure that Walker would walk away empty-handed. Soon General Walker would go back to the US Army to beg to have his Army Pension restored. That would take another decade. As for Johnny Roselli -- he was killed because he didn't keep his mouth shut -- but he himself was really only involved in the Fidel Castro assassination plots, like most of the Mafia. Roselli's crime wasn't the JFK assassination -- his crime was going public with anything, because that was against the Mafia rules. As for George DeMohrenschildt, his crime was that he led the charge to assassinate General Walker. This was confirmed by Volkmar Schmidt and also by George's manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy! (1978). George really did commit suicide, because by ruining Oswald's life, he also ruined his life, and he died penniless, with his wife and children abandoning him. Even Volkmar Schmidt abandoned him. Nobody else killed him. As for the many key witnesses of the JFK murder who died untimely deaths -- note that they were mostly in Dallas -- and that their testimony was mainly against Dallas Police officers. Former Deputy Roger Craig is a perfect case in point. The JFK assassination was a Dallas plot, led by the leader of the Radical Right in Dallas in 1963 -- General Walker. It's quite true that by 1967, General Walker was a laughingstock. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 22, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Doyle Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) Paul, You can't explain away the mid -1970's deaths of George de and Roselli, or Santos Trafficante for that matter, quite so easily. What you're missing is the common thread of the CIA/Cuba/JFK in all their lives and that they all died right before they were to testify before congressional committees investigating the CIA/JFK nexus. What are the odds of that happening? I'm not a statistician but I imagine it's fairly remote. My point is that Gen. Walker was out of control by the mid 1970's. By getting arrested twice for cruising public restrooms, in Dallas no less, Gen Walker would have been a huge liability to his co-conspirators if in fact he had a role in or knowledge of the conspiracy and he would have been silenced permanently.....just like Roselli, George de. and Trafficante were during the same time frame, the mid-1970's. Since Walker survived into the 1990's, it can be easily inferred that Gen Walker was not material to the conspiracy. I don't know how else to put this. It seems like a no-brainier to me. hasta la luego, Pablo Edited October 23, 2016 by Dan Doyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) Paul, You can't explain away the mid -1970's deaths of George de and Roselli, or Santos Trafficante for that matter, quite so easily. What you're missing is the common thread of the CIA/Cuba/JFK in all their lives and that they all died right before they were to testify before congressional committees investigating the CIA/JFK nexus. What are the odds of that happening? I'm not a statistician but I imagine it's fairly remote. My point is that Gen. Walker was out of control by the mid 1970's. By getting arrested twice for cruising public restrooms, in Dallas no less, Gen Walker would have been a huge liability to his co-conspirators if in fact he had a role in or knowledge of the conspiracy and he would have been silenced permanently.....just like Roselli, George de. and Trafficante were during the same time frame, the mid-1970's. Since Walker survived into the 1990's, it can be easily inferred that Gen Walker was not material to the conspiracy. I don't know how else to put this. It seems like a no-brainier to me. hasta la luego, Pablo Dan, Thanks for the discussion. Actually, given my Walker-did-it CT, I believe I can explain away the HSCA related deaths of Johnny Roselli and Santos Trafficante quite easily. They were in the Mafia. That was their first problem. Also, the CIA wanted Fidel Castro dead so badly that they stooped into the gutter for help. The CIA actually asked the Mafia to help assassinate Fidel Castro. Naturally, that had to be a State Secret for decades -- but it was also a big deal for the Mafia -- it upheld the Mafia Mythos. There was even a low-budget movie made of this era, portraying the Mafia as great patriots in the Cold War against Communism. The moral of the movie was, "for all their faults, they had their good side." The movie was a stinker. So, the Mafia continues to keep that Mythos alive today. People like James Files, for example, who spent several decades attempting to give the entire "credit" for the JFK assassination to Mafia superstar, Charles Nicoletti, feeds into this Mythos. It's a testosterone thing. Yet as Jim Garrison reportedly said, "The Mafia wouldn't have the guts or the power for this sort of thing." That is quite correct. I admit that Santos Trafficante, Sam Gianca and Carlos Marcello all donated millions to kill JFK -- but they didn't provide any hitmen. That was all left to professionals -- people with actual paramilitary experience. Some of the recipients of that money would include American soldiers of fortune, obviously -- people like Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, William Seymour, Frank Sturgis and so on. But most of that money was wasted. I admit the role of the CIA, Cuba and JFK in the entire Fidel Castro period -- it was the culture that led to the JFK assassination. But I really care about the Ground Crew. Some people say that we're close enough if we just admit there were more than three shots. I don't. I care about the Ground Crew. We have a few people who have already confessed (plausibly) to the JFK assassination. I don't count James Files. Here are the people I count: (1) Frank Sturgis (who really boasted about it) (2) Gerry Patrick Hemming (to A.J. Weberman) (3) David Morales (to Ruben Carbajal) (4) Howard Hunt (to his son on his deathbed) (5) Johnny Martino (to his son) (6) David Ferrie (to Jim Garrison) (7) Roscoe White (to his wife and son) (8) Lee Harvey Oswald (I'm just a patsy!) There are a few more, but these are the main ones that stand out. Notice than none of these are Mafia guys. I repeat -- the Mafia was involved in secret CIA plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. Their rules demand absolute secrecy, so that when Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli agreed to testify before the HSCA, they were shot dead on sheer principle. They didn't know squat about the JFK assassination, except that they had given this or that soldier of fortune lots of money. By the way, remember what Gerry Patrick Hemming told this very FORUM shortly before he died. The reason he refused to tell the whole Truth about the JFK assassination, is that he would have quickly been killed -- but not by the JFK plotters -- instead, he would have been killed by hit men working for people who only believed that the money they donated went to the actual JFK murder, and so they were paranoid of being named. See -- some of the swindlers who had taken money from rich people early in 1963 to kill JFK, and squandered the money, then went back to these "donors" after the JFK murder, and tried to blackmail them, saying, "You and I know that you donated money to kill JFK, and unless you give me more money, I'll tell the newspapers." Gerry Patrick Hemming said that there were already lots Mafia hits carried out to rub out these blackmailers. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 23, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Paul, You can't explain away the mid -1970's deaths of George de and Roselli, or Santos Trafficante for that matter, quite so easily. What you're missing is the common thread of the CIA/Cuba/JFK in all their lives and that they all died right before they were to testify before congressional committees investigating the CIA/JFK nexus. What are the odds of that happening? I'm not a statistician but I imagine it's fairly remote. My point is that Gen. Walker was out of control by the mid 1970's. By getting arrested twice for cruising public restrooms, in Dallas no less, Gen Walker would have been a huge liability to his co-conspirators if in fact he had a role in or knowledge of the conspiracy and he would have been silenced permanently.....just like Roselli, George de. and Trafficante were during the same time frame, the mid-1970's. Since Walker survived into the 1990's, it can be easily inferred that Gen Walker was not material to the conspiracy. I don't know how else to put this. It seems like a no-brainier to me. hasta la luego, Pablo Dan, Thanks for the discussion. Actually, given my Walker-did-it CT, I believe I can explain away the HSCA related deaths of Johnny Roselli and Santos Trafficante quite easily. They were in the Mafia. That was their first problem. Also, the CIA wanted Fidel Castro dead so badly that they stooped into the gutter for help. The CIA actually asked the Mafia to help assassinate Fidel Castro. Naturally, that had to be a State Secret for decades -- but it was also a big deal for the Mafia -- it upheld the Mafia Mythos. There was even a low-budget movie made of this era, portraying the Mafia as great patriots in the Cold War against Communism. The moral of the movie was, "for all their faults, they had their good side." The movie was a stinker. So, the Mafia continues to keep that Mythos alive today. People like James Files, for example, who spent several decades attempting to give the entire "credit" for the JFK assassination to Mafia superstar, Charles Nicoletti, feeds into this Mythos. It's a testosterone thing. Yet as Jim Garrison reportedly said, "The Mafia wouldn't have the guts or the power for this sort of thing." That is quite correct. I admit that Santos Trafficante, Sam Gianca and Carlos Marcello all donated millions to kill JFK -- but they didn't provide any hitmen. That was all left to professionals -- people with actual paramilitary experience. Some of the recipients of that money would include American soldiers of fortune, obviously -- people like Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, William Seymour, Frank Sturgis and so on. But most of that money was wasted. I admit the role of the CIA, Cuba and JFK in the entire Fidel Castro period -- it was the culture that led to the JFK assassination. But I really care about the Ground Crew. Some people say that we're close enough if we just admit there were more than three shots. I don't. I care about the Ground Crew. We have a few people who have already confessed (plausibly) to the JFK assassination. I don't count James Files. Here are the people I count: (1) Frank Sturgis (who really boasted about it) (2) Gerry Patrick Hemming (to A.J. Weberman) (3) David Morales (to Ruben Carbajal) (4) Howard Hunt (to his son on his deathbed) (5) Johnny Martino (to his son) (6) David Ferrie (to Jim Garrison) (7) Roscoe White (to his wife and son) (8) Lee Harvey Oswald (I'm just a patsy!) There are a few more, but these are the main ones that stand out. Notice than none of these are Mafia guys. I repeat -- the Mafia was involved in secret CIA plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. Their rules demand absolute secrecy, so that when Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli agreed to testify before the HSCA, they were shot dead on sheer principle. They didn't know squat about the JFK assassination, except that they had given this or that soldier of fortune lots of money. By the way, remember what Gerry Patrick Hemming told this very FORUM shortly before he died. The reason he refused to tell the whole Truth about the JFK assassination, is that he would have quickly been killed -- but not by the JFK plotters -- instead, he would have been killed by hit men working for people who only believed that the money they donated went to the actual JFK murder, and so they were paranoid of being named. See -- some of the swindlers who had taken money from rich people early in 1963 to kill JFK, and squandered the money, then went back to these "donors" after the JFK murder, and tried to blackmail them, saying, "You and I know that you donated money to kill JFK, and unless you give me more money, I'll tell the newspapers." Gerry Patrick Hemming said that there were already lots Mafia hits carried out to rub out these blackmailers. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, AFAIK, David Ferrie confessed to Jim Garrison only in the film JFK. -- Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) Dear Paul, AFAIK, David Ferrie confessed to Jim Garrison only in the film JFK. -- Tommy Tommy, IIRC, according to Jim Garrison himself -- in his 1988 book, On the Trail of the Assassins -- the combination of Jack S. Martin and David Ferrie comprised the original source of all of Jim Garrison's facts about LHO in New Orleans. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 24, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Saying Ferrie 'confessed' to Garrison and then covering your ass when someone knowledgeable points out that there is no evidence of that. Unacceptable Paul Trejo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Paul: Ferrie did say some very fascinating things to Lou Ivon, which would probably not count technically as a confession. But the other cases on Trejo's list are even more specious. E.g. Roscoe White to his wife and son?! I mean can the man be for real? How bad of a researcher is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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