Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Paul Trejo]

Paul:

Ferrie did say some very fascinating things to Lou Ivon, which would probably not count technically as a confession.

But the other cases on Trejo's list are even more specious.

E.g. Roscoe White to his wife and son?!

I mean can the man be for real? How bad of a researcher is he?

So, James, are you saying that you doubt the account given by Ricky White about his father, Roscoe White, confessing that he was the shooter at both JFK and J.D. Tippit?

And if you doubt it -- what is your justification for slamming the story so fiercely? Isn't it just another threat to your CIA-did-it dogma?

The question comes back to the BYP, and Jack White's analysis of the unhealed broken right wrist in the BYP -- which belongs to Roscoe White. The chin, the neck, the shoulders, the unhealed broken right wrist -- the back-leaning stance.

These are all material clues that ought to be reviewed with care -- not dismissed because they don't match the 20th century dogma that the CIA-did-it. I remind you that the 20th century failed to solve the JFK assassination mystery.

Ricky White told the truth as he heard and saw it. He got little respect -- but I believe him, and I'm not alone in that. Also, I'm not alone in accepting Jack White's analysis of the BYP. These bits of evidence go together.

If all you have are negative insults to share anymore, Jim, then it's time for people to recognize that.

Oswald wasn't an Intelligence Agent -- he wanted to be one. He tried and failed. In the meantime, his political associations were with the Radical Right in Dallas and New Orleans. Roscoe White was among them.

Now, Ricky White speaks like a high-school dropout, and he didn't know the FBI from the CIA, so his technical opinions are often questionable -- but the information Ricky obtained from his mother and his family Pastor are not his invention.

Nobody has yet explained how Geneva White happened to have a BYP that even the Warren Commission didn't have.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 24, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Actually the 20th century did solve it in broad outline. It was the CIA.

[Paul Trejo]

Actually the 20th century did solve it in broad outline. It was the CIA.

Well, Paul B., you have no proof after 50 years. Also, your case is full of holes. Admit it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 24, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/2/2015 at 6:25 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Interesting post, Mr. Tidd.

Do you think Angleton was interested in finding out who had been manipulating Oswald in a classical CIA vs. KGB counter-intelligence or espionage sort-of-way, or who was manipulating Oswald into becoming the perfect patsy for the assassination, or both?

Regarding the former, let's not forget Angleton's search for "Popov's Mole" which began at the same time that Oswald arrived in Moscow, or the fact that Oswald, while still in Russia, was given blond Robert Webster's biometrics by Dallas FBI agent John Fain (in apparent collusion with CI/SIG's Ann Ergerter and SR/CE's Bill Bright -- who soon had them incorporated into some of Oswald's CIA files).

As regard's the manipulating of Oswald or Oswald's files into his becoming the perfect patsy, let's not forget the telephonic impersonation (by an apparent SAS or Staff D insider) and the physical impersonation by a short, over 30 "Blond Oswald" in Mexico City.

Which gives me an idea: Why didn't the blond "Oswald" in Mexico City dye his hair brown to look more like the real Oswald? The fact that he didn't suggests to me that the plotters thought that Oswald was blond, like the 5'10", 166 lb. Robert Webster, or didn't care and chose to impersonate Oswald in a manner consistent with what was already in (some of?) his Intelligence files.

Interestingly, it seems that the plotters (or Intel-types panicked into cover up mode?)  thought that (5'9.5", 135 lb.) Oswald was a Webster-like 5'10" ,165 lbs. on 11/22/63 because that was the description of the suspected assassin that was broadcast over police radio, fifteen minutes after the assassination, by Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer, allegedly based on information given to him by a mystery eye witness.

--Tommy

Question: Why do you say that it's "easy to point fingers at the CIA, FBI, and ONI" in this case?

bumped for the heck of it

Edited March 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/2/2015 at 6:25 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Jon G. Tidd wrote:

"It's postulated by JFK assassination writers and students that Oswald was being manipulated by the CIA or the FBI or ONI. For sure, the "someone or something powerful" manipulating Oswald would be deep in the shadows, hidden from view.

The job of counter-intelligence is to uncover such manipulation and trace it to its source. I think that's what Angleton and his group were doing -- trying to figure out whether Oswald was being manipulated and if so, by whom.

The fact it's so easy to point one's finger at the CIA, FBI, and ONI tells me they were not Oswald's manipulators."

[emphasis added by TG]

If former Army Counter-Intelligence officer Jon G. Tidd is correct, I wonder when the manipulation of Oswald began?

October 1956?

September 1959?

August 1963?

And by whom, of course.

--  Tommy

Edited March 26, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/16/2017 at 1:41 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 2/2/2015 at 6:25 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Forum Member Jon G. Tidd wrote:

"It's postulated by JFK assassination writers and students that Oswald was being manipulated by the CIA or the FBI or ONI. For sure, the "someone or something powerful" manipulating Oswald would be deep in the shadows, hidden from view.

The job of counter-intelligence is to uncover such manipulation and trace it to its source. I think that's what Angleton and his group were doing -- trying to figure out whether Oswald was being manipulated and if so, by whom.

The fact it's so easy to point one's finger at the CIA, FBI, and ONI tells me they were not Oswald's manipulators."

[emphasis added by TG]

If former Army Counter-Intelligence officer Jon G. Tidd is correct, I wonder when the manipulation of Oswald began?

October, 1956?

September, 1959?

August, 1963?

And by whom, of course.

--  Tommy

bumped

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

 

Quote

 

"I don't believe the CIA had a hand in the childhood lives of the individuals [Harvey and Lee] we're discussing. There's nothing to indicate CIA did any such thing. I do believe some intelligence agency [but probably not the CIA, FBI, or ONI] had a hand in fabricating an identity, a cover story, for John Armstrong's "Harvey" [i.e. the man married to Marina and killed by Jack Ruby] once "Harvey" became a young adult and joined the Marines [in October, 1956]. I believe that cover story largely endures."

[emphasis added]

Jon G. Tidd is an inactive forum member and a former Army counter-intelligence officer.  His long-term (four year) double-Oswald theory is one that I can almost live with.

(lol)

--  Tommy

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Jon G. Tidd is an inactive forum member and a former Army counter-intelligence officer.  His long-term (four year) double-Oswald theory is one that I can almost live with.

(lol)

--  Tommy

You're making progress Tommy.  Now just spend an hour or two researching San Saba and you'll be there.

[Jim Hargrove]

20 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

[Thomas Graves]

On 12/16/2014 at 6:42 AM, Jon G. Tidd said:

[...]

I don't believe the CIA had a hand in the childhood lives of the individuals [Harvey and Lee] we're discussing. There's nothing to indicate CIA did any such thing. I do believe some intelligence agency had a hand in fabricating an identity, a cover story, for John Armstrong's "Harvey" once "Harvey" became a young adult and joined the Marines. I believe that cover story largely endures.

[...]

emphasis added

I'm bumping Jon Tidd's whole paragraph, again.  Hopefully Hargrove won't edit it again to suit his own purposes.

--  Tommy

Edited March 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Jon G. Tidd is an inactive forum member and a former Army counter-intelligence officer.  His long-term (four year) double-Oswald theory is one that I can almost live with.

(lol)

--  Tommy

I didn't edit anything.  I clicked "Quote" on Tommy's post four posts above this one, and the above is what I got, again!  No editing, Tommy.

After all his insults and outrage, isn't it amusing that Tommy can "almost live with" a "long-term (four year) double-Oswald theory" but not one two or three times as long.

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

[...]

After all his insults and outrage, isn't it amusing that Tommy can "almost live with" a "long-term (four year) double-Oswald theory" but not one two or three times as long.

"Dear James'

For me, it's a lot easier to accept the possibility that some Intelligence agency created "Harvey's" and "Lee's" retroactive childhood cover stories after "Harvey" had joined the Marines, than the idea that the CIA (or whomever) chose two boys (when they were about eight years old) to participate in a long-term "doppelganger project," somehow knowing beforehand that they would grow up looking sufficiently-alike so as to be able to fool people who had dealt with "Lee" before the assassination (or whatever black op was going to be used for) into believing they'd dealt with "Harvey -- the Commie killer of JFK", instead.

--  Tommy

Edited March 28, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear James'

For me, it's a lot easier to accept the possibility that an Intelligence agency created "Harvey's" and "Lee's" retroactive childhood cover stories after "Harvey" had joined the Marines, than the idea that the CIA (or whomever) chose two boys (when they were about eight years old) to participate in a long-term "doppelganger project," somehow knowing beforehand that they would grow up looking sufficiently-alike so as to be able to fool people who had dealt with "Lee" before the assassination (or whatever black op was going to be used for) into believing they'd dealt with "Harvey -- the Commie killer of JFK", instead.

--  Tommy

bumped

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 11:59 AM, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear James Hargrove'

For me, it's a lot easier to accept the possibility that some Intelligence agency created "Harvey's" and "Lee's" retroactive childhood cover stories after "Harvey" had joined the Marines, than the idea that the CIA (or whomever) chose two boys (when they were about eight years old) to participate in a long-term "doppelganger project," somehow knowing beforehand that they would grow up looking sufficiently-alike so as to be able to fool people who had dealt with "Lee" before the assassination (or whatever black op was going to be used for) into believing they'd dealt with "Harvey -- the Commie killer of JFK", instead.

--  Tommy

Tommy,

Good one.

Regards,
--Paul

[James DiEugenio]

You obviously have not read about San Saba and Norwood's new work on it.

BTW, you two should start a "bump" club,  consisting of Graves doing the bumping and Trejo doing the commenting.  Then you would really flood the board with inanities.

Or did I just reveal what the tactic was?