• Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! DETAILS HERE:

      We are opening registration!! If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We require you use your real name, a valid email address, and your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. Additionally, you will have to send us your photo for use as an avatar and submit a brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Robert Prudhomme

How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI

92 posts in this topic

Special Agent Robert A. Frazier of the FBI was considered a firearms expert. He gathered most of the ballistics evidence in the JFK assassination and presented his findings in evidence to the Warren Commission. However, a careful examination of his work and evidenvce reveals a plethora of errors.

One such error is revealed in the excerpt from his testimony below, and this error will explain why the bullet shown in the evidence photo and known as CE 399 could never have been fired from Oswald's rifle, or any other 6.5mm Carcano.

"Mr. EISENBERG - Well, no; not at this time.
Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber?
Mr. FRAZIER - That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm."

This is a popular misconception in the shooting world regarding .25 calibre and 6.5mm calibre rifles. Mr. Frazier is 100% wrong in his belief.

The bore diameter of a .25 calibre rifle is .250"; the bore diameter of a 6.5mm calibre rifle is .256".

The groove diameter (also bullet diameter) of a .25 calibre rifle is .257"; the groove and bullet diameter of a 6.5mm calibre rifle is .264" (.268" in a Carcano).

6fxd37-1.jpg

rifling2.jpg

The confusion between the two calibres stems from the bore diameter of the 6.5mm and the groove diameter of the .25 calibre both being .257".

This misconception plagued Frazier throughout his investigation and shows up again in his testimony about the Walker bullet.

"Mr. EISENBERG - Can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or 13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately .267 inch."

As I pointed out in another thread, adding the measurements from the Walker bullet of a land impression (.070" or 1.778 mm) and a groove impression (.130" or 3.302 mm) and multiplying by 4 to determine circumference, and then dividing by pi (3.1416) to obtain diameter, does not produce .267".

(.070 + .130) x 4 = .800 divided by 3.1416 = .255"

Amazingly, this is almost exactly the diameter of a .25 calibre bullet.

The REAL specs for the lands and grooves of a 6.5mm Carcano rifle are lands = .085" (2.159 mm) and grooves = .125" (3.175 mm). With these specs, let's try Frazier's formula again.

(.085 + .125) x 4 = .840 divided by 3.1416 = .267" (the correct diameter for a Carcano bullet)

With this in mind, let us look at CE 399 again:

33-3323t.gif

A much larger and clearer version of this photo can be seen here:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5764&d=1394312818

We now know the width of the Carcano land to be .085" or 2.159 mm. Even a rough measurement of the above land impression shows it to be well under 2 mm and actually close to the measurement Frazier obtained from the Walker bullet of .070" or 1.778 mm.

There is no doubt now that the CE 399 in the photo above was not fired from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, nor any other 6.5mm calibre rifle.

The theory I have, and it is rapidly becoming the ONLY possibility, is that Frazier and his assistants honestly believed the bullets from a .25 calibre rifle and a 6.5mm calibre rifle were the same diameter of bullet and would, therefore, be interchangeable as evidence. If the bullet presented as the Walker bullet (Edwin Walker swore it was a substitute) and CE 399 were both plants, it seems highly probable that the FBI used a more common .25 calibre rifle to produce their substitutes.

There are a number of other things wrong with CE 399, and I will produce them in the next few posts.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert,

Questions: [1] How is bore diameter measured? [2] How is groove diameter (bullet diameter) measured?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert,

Questions: [1] How is bore diameter measured? [2] How is groove diameter (bullet diameter) measured?

Hi Jon

If you go back to the 1st post, you will see I have just posted a diagram showing the interior of a rifle barrel. Made by the riflings, the "lands" are the raised portions, and the bore diameter is the measurement between the tops of two opposing lands. The "grooves" are the riflings cut into the barrel, and the groove diameter, plus the diameter of the bullet, is measured from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of an opposing groove.

These terms came about in the evolution of a rifled barrel. The barrel first has a hole "bored" from end to end, and the diameter of this hole becomes the "bore" or "calibre" of the rifle. Rifling grooves are cut next, and their depth, combined with the bore, becomes the groove diameter.

For example. a .30-06 is a .30 calibre rifle, meaning the measurement from land to land top is .300". The rifling grooves of a .30-06 are each .004" deep. Therefore, .300" + .004" + .004" = .308", the diameter of a .30 calibre bullet.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I am not an expert, I have seen a number of photos of 6.5 mm ammunition, and the bullets all look exactly like CE 399. There are several test bullets within the WC's records, for example, that were supposedly fired by the M/C rifle. They all look like CE 399.

It seems apparent you think these bullets were all fired in a .25 caliber rifle, and that the FBI and Army shooters pretended these bullets had been fired in the rifle found in the building. The next step, it seems clear, is to show us what bullets were used.

Can you show us a .25 cal bullet that looks just like CE 399?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems apparent you [bob P.] think these bullets were all fired in a .25 caliber rifle, and that the FBI and Army shooters pretended these bullets had been fired in the rifle found in the building.

And Robert Prudhomme, therefore, also has no choice but to believe one of the following two things....

1.) The "real killer" shot JFK with a .25 caliber weapon, even though a large part of the "plot" was to frame a patsy named Oswald who owned a 6.5mm. Carcano weapon.

or...

2.) Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't being "set up" as a patsy IN ADVANCE of the assassination.

I'm quite confident that either option above is very unpalatable to a prolific rewriter of history (and the facts) like Robert Prudhomme.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert,

I interpret what you say to mean that the maximum diameter of a 30.06 bullet is .308, meaning ridges in the bullet travel along grooves in the barrel, giving the bullet its spin.

If this is correct, and that's an if, from where does the .06 come in 30.06?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

It is not clear what the FBI actually did. What is clear, and I'm sure you are going to waste a great deal of energy denying this, is that Frazier did not understand that a 6.5mm bullet and a .25 calibre bullet are not the same thing. Further, the photos of CE 399, along with their scales, clearly show this bullet was not a 6.5mm bullet, even though it had the same general appearance as a 6.5mm bullet.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The next problem with CE 399 also involves the land impression left by the riflings of the rifle that fired CE 399, seen again below:

33-3323t.gif

A much larger and clearer version of this photo can be seen here:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5764&d=1394312818

My search for specs regarding Carcano rifles led me to the Italian Firearms Forum of a gun collectors website, where a collector with access to Italian military specs was able to answer almost all of my questions. He is the chap who supplied me with the correct Carcano lands and grooves measurements I used in the last post.

It turns out that the rate of twist for the riflings in Carcano I have been using over the years are not quite accurate, and most have been rounded off to the closest whole number.

For those interested, the rifling specs are as follows:

Lands and grooves widths: All Carcanos (6.5mm but not 7.35mm) Lands = .085" (2.159 mm) Grooves = .125" (3.175 mm)

Riflings:

M91/38 6.5mm short rifle (LHO) = Standard twist rifling, rate of twist 1:8.47
M38 7.35mm short rifle = Standard twist rifling, rate of twist 1:9.45
All carbines (pre- and post-1938, except M38 carbines) = Progressive twist rifling, rate of twist 1:15.3 - 1:7.48
(this does not include carbines such as the M91/24 made from cut down long rifles)
All M91 long rifles (except M91/41) = Progressive twist rifling, rate of twist 1:22.79 - 1:7.94

I had arrived at a figure for the rate of twist of the riflings in the rifle that fired CE 399 but, now that I look at my methods, I am not happy with them and I will be doing it again.

If there are any members with experience in graphics who want to have a go at determining the rate of twist on the land impression seen on CE 399, I am more than happy to accept assistance. If the rate of twist seen on CE 399 can be accurately determined, it will be further proof of whether or not CE 399 was fired from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, or any other 6.5mm rifle.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon

The "06" in .30-06 comes from when the rifle cartridge was introduced. This cartridge was introduced in 1906 to the United States Army.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems apparent you [bob P.] think these bullets were all fired in a .25 caliber rifle, and that the FBI and Army shooters pretended these bullets had been fired in the rifle found in the building.

And Robert Prudhomme, therefore, also has no choice but to believe one of the following two things....

1.) The "real killer" shot JFK with a .25 caliber weapon, even though a large part of the "plot" was to frame a patsy named Oswald who owned a 6.5mm. Carcano weapon.

or...

2.) Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't being "set up" as a patsy IN ADVANCE of the assassination.

I'm quite confident that either option above is very unpalatable to a prolific rewriter of history (and the facts) like Robert Prudhomme.

David Von Pein is going to attempt to confuse everything you read as much as humanly possible, as per the requirements of his position. For that reason, I will not be responding to any of his posts in this thread, and I encourage readers of this thread to do the same.

His group becomes extremely defensive whenever the discussion involves anything to do with the SBT, and for good reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

It is not clear what the FBI actually did. What is clear, and I'm sure you are going to waste a great deal of energy denying this, is that Frazier did not understand that a 6.5mm bullet and a .25 calibre bullet are not the same thing. Further, the photos of CE 399, along with their scales, clearly show this bullet was not a 6.5mm bullet, even though it had the same general appearance as a 6.5mm bullet.

Actually, Robert, I'm quite critical of Frazier on a number of points, e.g. his suggestion that the problems with the scope were an advantage to the assassin

But my challenge remains. If you think CE 399 is a bullet for a .25 rifle, and not a 6.5 mm rifle, then you need to find .25 ammo that looks like CE 399, and weighs 160 grains, etc. If there's a 160 grain .25 bullet I would think you could find it for us. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just trying to point out what could be a major problem for your proposal CE 399 could not have been fired in a 6.5 mm rifle.

Edited by Pat Speer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

How do you know the bullet portrayed as CE 399 in the FBI photos weighs 160 grains?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

How do you know the bullet portrayed as CE 399 in the FBI photos weighs 160 grains?

I don't. I'm pretty sure it's been weighed since, and that its weight has been confirmed as just under 160 grains, but that's beside the point. The point is that you're claiming it's not a 6.5 mm bullet, and that it's really .25 cal bullet. So show us a .25 cal bullet that looks just like it, and that weighs what the bullet is purported to weigh, or add into your theory that the bullet does not really weigh close to 160 grains, but weighs close to... and then YOU fill in the blank. That way your theory can be tested, or disproved. That way your theory is clear--that Frazier LIED about the weight of the bullet, and was part of a conspiracy. Or that he didn't lie--and was confused because a .25 cal bullet weighed what a 6.5 mm bullet weighed.

Edited by Pat Speer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

I will not follow you down this rabbit hole, and I will not publicly state the bullet in the photo is a .25 calibre bullet.

That being said, how do we account for Frazier's supposed measurements of the Walker bullet, which come nowhere close to any measurements found on a 6.5mm bullet fired from an M91/38 Carcano rifle?

Do you agree that proving the FBI lied about the Walker bullet is sufficient to show the FBI evidence in this case is suspect in its entirety?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat

Let me put it this way. How be you just sit back and let me post what I have found about Frazier's work with CE 399, and we can discuss what it implies afterwards? It is like so many things in this case; it is quite apparent someone has pulled a fast one on us but, just what they did is not readily apparent.

BTW, what did you think about my post regarding Frazier's test firing results of C2766?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0