Informal Poll: The Martin and Hughes Clips Showing Lovelady In Front Of The TSBD Were "Abnormal" or "Normal"?

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, Do you know for an absolute fact that these scenes could not have been staged and how do you know this?

Ever heard of common sense, Robert?

None of the "extras" spilled the beans because of "National Security"?

LOL

--Tommy

Mady wrote:

So in other words you have no evidence to show that the scenes could not have been staged. Is it that you feel very strongly that it could not be conceivably possible? I don't want to put words in your mouth but you have not provided any reasoning for your opinion other than it is unimaginable to you.

[...] I have no doubt they could have done it, there is no technical reason or insurmountable obstacle to have prevented them from doing so.

The fact that WILLIAMS and ARCE and extras never spilled the beans could be a proof of "national Security" threat wouldn't it?

[...]

Mady,

The burden of proof is on you, not me.

It's your theory.

So please tell us how the bad guys could have / would have "staged" or "faked" the scene which was captured simultaneously in the John Martin and Robert Hughes films in which Lovelady is smoking a cigarette in front of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination and in close proximity to his co-workers Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce. You do agree that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce are visible in the John Martin film (post #1470, this thread), don't you, or do you think they were paid "extras"? You do agree that they are in front of the TSBD, don't you, or are they in front of a fake building made to look like the TSBD? You do agree that both films were shot during daylight hours, don't you, or do you think they were shot at night, using artificial light? You do agree that DPD policemen are visible in both films, don't you, or do you think they were paid "extras"? Etc...

If you think both films were "faked" and "staged" just to make it look like Lovelady had been wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red, "plaid" shirt on 11/22/63, why do you think the bad guys went to the trouble to film the scene from two slightly-different positions? Wouldn't one fake film have been sufficient?

--Tommy

Post # 1470, this thread. Scroll down to see the John Martin and Robert Hughes clips of this scene juxtaposed:

I have been looking at an enhanced copy of the Hughes film, and I noticed, towards the end of it, what appears to be the front steps of the TSBD some amount of time after the assassination. Although hard to make out, I believe I can see Billy Lovelady at the bottom of the steps on the right hand side.

Does anyone know what time this footage was shot at?

Robert,

Yes, that's Lovelady at 1:33 (wearing his unbuttoned red, grey, and black plaid shirt over his white t-shirt) directly under the letter "T" in "DEPOSITORY".

To answer your question, I think it was several minutes after the assassination as the police are letting workers into the building again. In fact at the very end you can see Lovelady start making his way up the stairs towards the front door.

Sorry I can't be more specific.

Perhaps another forum member can educate us.

--Tommy

And now for a little followup.

From post # 1156, this thread, by Sean Murphy:

#2. LOVELADY IS ASKED EXPLICITLY ABOUT A PRAYER MAN-STYLE SCENARIO.

First the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady to identify himself in Altgens. Lovelady immediately does so.

Next Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film [contemporaneous with the Robert Hughes clip you're talking about, Mr Prudhomme] showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 8-15 minutes post-assassination (a time estimate given by photographic consultant Robert Groden, who is present in the room). Lovelady identifies himself immediately. [...]

--Tommy

And last but not least!

From a Robin Unger post # 142 on the "Neweusem Displays Oswald's Shirt" thread:

Martin / Hughes film sync TSBD doorway Credit: Gerda Dunckel

Give the Gif time to load

(If you look closely at the Martin clip, you'll see that Lovelady is smoking. When he exhales through his mouth, it distorts his face because he juts his jaw out. Also note that when he turns his head away from the TSBD and exhales, a tiny vertical strip of Lovelady's t-shirt is visible in his chest area. So his shirt was unbuttoned, after all!)

Note: Lovelady is visible in the Hughes clip above, too, but you can't see much of his shirt. Just his huge bald spot. LOL

--Tommy

Is that Howard Brennan (wearing the hardhat and overalls) walking in from the left with someone else near the end of the Hughes film?

PS Please note that Bonnie Ray Williams is visible in both clips, and Danny Arce is visible in the Martin clip.

Mady,

Can you recognize the "Bonnie Ray Williams" and "Danny Arce" characters in the Martin clip, and "Bonnie Ray Williams" in the Hughes clip ("Danny Arce" is obscured by people standing in the foreground)? They are there. Let me know if you need some help spotting them.

Did you know that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce were Lovelady's co-workers at the TSBD?

--Tommy

Not wanting to derail the "Oswald Leaving The TSBD?" thead any more than I already have, I've decided to start a new thread.

[Thomas Graves]

Another post from the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread which I've decided to bring over here:

Thomas I love your side by side videos, good job to who ever did this.

While someone may look at these films and determine that two witnesses taking movies of the same scene is supportive of it being true, I look at it and wonder what are the chances that two random witnesses randomly gathered in front of the TSBD watching a scene where nothing of significance seems to be occurring and they both take a few seconds of film, both capturing essentially the exact same moments in time. And what are the chances that the films just happened to showcase LOVELADY in his plaid shirt?

We have seen all the footage of OSWALD in the police station, being dragged down crowded hallways, then we are presented a scene where we see the back of someones head being walked thru an office, this scene is unlike any other scene we have of OSWALD in police custody, but that's not all, it just happens to contain LOVELADY prominently displayed in his plaid shirt. What are the chances of a film existing of OSWALD not in the hallway and what are the chances of it also containing anyone from the TSBD, but it is not just anyone it is LOVELADY in his plaid shirt.

A little more skepticism toward evidence may be warranted.

Are you nuts?

The President of the United States has just been shot, apparently from the TSBD. The sniper may still be inside the building. The authorities are searching for him inside the building. They could theoretically drag the sniper out through the front door at any moment. A policeman is doing "traffic control" at the front door. It's an exciting afternoon and the TSBD is one of the focal points. I see nothing unusual whatsoever about two amateur photographers filming the goings on outside the TSBD some 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination.

What do other members think about this? Are these two film clips of a suspicious or normal nature, given the circumstances?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS --

Mady,

The burden of proof is on you.

It's your theory.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Another one:

Hi Thomas

.. were you going to say charming....?

Maybe I'm over-interpreting this but I thought his "I'll give you abnormal" comment was a vote for the films being genuine. I could be wrong on that though, obviously.

Vanessa,

In this poll, casting an "abnormal" vote is the same thing as saying that one agrees with Mady that the two film clips showing Lovelady in front of the TSBD after the assassination are "suspicious" -- that they were "faked" or "staged" sometime after 11/22/63.

"Abnormal" here means "Suspicious" which is a polite word for "Faked" and "Staged".

My using the word "abnormal" was a joke, a play on words, so that I could put Mady in the "abnormal" category, at least semantically speaking. Get it? I should have just said "Suspicious," I guess.

I suspect that Bob P. thinks that the two clips are not suspicious / faked/ staged, but instead that they are perfectly "normal."

I thought he was just making a joke himself when he wrote, "You want abnormal? I'll give you abnormal."

Now I'm really confused.

But then again for me that's perfectly ............. normal.

So which side of the poll do you want me to put Bob P. on? On the "abnormal" side with Mady, or on the "normal" side with you and me? lol

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

And last but not least, the "poll" results as they now stand:

Thanks Thomas - I'm with you and I followed your reasoning there too.

I think Bob is on the normal side with you and me. Sorry if that's not right, Bob.

Vanessa,

Okie dokie!

Into the "normal" side Bob P. goes.

Unless, of course, he really really insists on being on the "abnormal" side (lol) , or would prefer to abstain.

Poll Update:

The Martin and Hughes Clips Showing Lovelady In Front Of The TSBD After The Assassination Were--

"Abnormal / Suspicious / Faked / Staged" -- Mady

"Normal" -- Tommy, Vanessa, Carmine, Paul B, and have I forgotten anybody...? Oh yes -- Bob P.

--Tommy

Edited March 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Gary Murr]

Hey Tommy:

Throw me into the "normal" camp on this issue. FWIW.

Gary

[Larry Hancock]

I'll go with normal...hardly ever get that chance so might as well grab it...

[Robert Prudhomme]

Of course I'm normal. My mother had me tested.

[Mark Knight]

Thanks for spinning this off into its own thread.

[Roger DeLaria]

I'm going with "normal" on this one.

[Ray Mitcham]

And me.

[Thomas Graves]

And me.

Thanks Ray.

Time for an update.

Current Poll Results:

The Question:

Were the Martin and Hughes clips, which show Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination, "abnormal" (faked/staged at a later date) or "normal" (not faked/staged)?

"Abnormal" -- Robert Mady

"Normal" -- Tommy, Carmine, Vanessa, Paul B., Bob P., Gary, LARRY HANCOCK, Roger. Ray, and Randy.

Aren't there any more "abnormals" out there? Is Robert Mady the only one? lol

--Tommy

Edited March 19, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

And me.

Thanks Ray.

Time for an update.

Current Poll Results:

The Question:

Were the Martin and Hughes clips, which show Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination, "abnormal" (faked/staged at a later date) or "normal" (not faked/staged)?

"Abnormal" -- Robert Mady

"Normal" -- Tommy, Carmine, Vanessa, Paul B., Bob P., Gary, LARRY HANCOCK, Roger. Ray, and Randy.

Aren't there any more "abnormals" out there? Is Robert Mady the only one? lol

--Tommy

Ten "normals" to one "abnormal" so far.

The normals seem to be running away with it...

--Tommy

[Jon G. Tidd]

I can't vote until I'm pretty sure [a] neither the FBI nor any other government agency got its hands on the originals of these films, and the clips shown here are originals.

[Thomas Graves]

I can't vote until I'm pretty sure [a] neither the FBI nor any other government agency got its hands on the originals of these films, and the clips shown here are originals.

Jon G. Tidd,,

You seem to be suggesting that the bad guys either photographically altered both the Martin clip and the Hughes clip to make Lovelady appear in them, or that the scene was staged at a later date.

Update: Taking your most recent post on the subject (#23, this thread) into consideration, do you think that the guy who at least resembled Lovelady and was wearing the mostly-red "plaid" shirt in front of the TSBD was wearing a shirt like Lovelady's by sheer coincidence, or do you think that this TSBD scene was staged at a later date?

--Tommy

Edited March 22, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Tommy,

I don't trust the integrity of any photographic record that came into the hands of the FBI, the SS, the DPD, or any other government agency.